http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble en-US Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:23:38 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142707 Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:38:47 +0000 Spongebob 142707@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Why are the governments bailing out motor manufacturers? </p> <p>Cars pollute and we kept getting told to go green - get on our bikes (which WE do). So why don't governments chant on about how this down turn in car output will be good for the environment? Because they don't give a sxxt about the environment! All they care about is tax receipts! The environment agenda is a political deception to relieve us of more cash - another tax!</p> <p>Did you hear any government rejoicing about the drop in oil consumption when the price shot up last year? No, because they faced loosing tax receipts when consumption fell and businesses began to struggle.</p> <p>58% drop in output they claim. Good! Roads all over the world will eventually become less conjested if this continues! For years the automotive business model was dependent on high levels of credit. Credit brought in to prop up the business because the product was costing too much to make and because they saw an opportunity to make more money.</p> <p>Less cars made will be good for us. It's the same as money - if you print more money you devalue the currency. Less cars = better residuals.</p> <p>A vibrant successful economy produces CO2 and other waste. It is almost unavoidable. We each can do a little bit for the environment, but frankly it won't make any difference to the big picture. We need an alternative to burning fossil fuels, but the oil companys won't let new technologies flourish. They have a great deal of control to keep us buying their product and at the highest price.</p> <p>We have too much production in the world. This came about from too much profligate borrowing. A situation brought about by reckless bank lending, big manufacturing corporations and governments.</p> <p>What a mess we are in, now the flow of money has dried up and the silly lending has ceased!</p> <p>The situation is quite frightening. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142647 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:47:11 +0000 grizzlygus 142647@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Yeah aracer, something like that.</p> <p>.</p> <p>...... I think you're getting the gist. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142639 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:41:09 +0000 aracer 142639@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Like Thatcher is still a big bad bogey (wo)man for Socialist Worker readers? </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142075 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:15:12 +0000 grizzlygus 142075@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Scargill .............still they hold him up as some sort of Icon.</blockquote></p> <p>And yet. The only person who has mentioned Scargill on this thread, has said, quote : "I'd dance on Scargill now whilst the nasty little twerp is still breathing." </p> <p>.</p> <p>Sounds to me as if he's still a big bad bogey man for Daily Mail readers. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142058 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:12:00 +0000 Lanesra 142058@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>As for the original question, historically the car trade and the coal miners are a similar model - Jobs for the boys (through union "power") outputting something no one wants. Scargill knew this but wanted to keep his lifestyle </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142056 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:11:37 +0000 grizzlygus 142056@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>And yet. The only person who has mentioned Scargill on this thread, has said, quote : "I'd dance on Scargill now whilst the nasty little twerp is still breathing." </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142027 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:02:28 +0000 Lanesra 142027@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The rational of "trade unionists" is incredible. Even recently Scargill (and co/NUM) where shown to be corrupt through the vibration/white hand court case. Yet still they hold him up as some sort of Icon.</p> <p>How far do you think we would have to dig down if the coal plants weren't shut? </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142024 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:00:44 +0000 grizzlygus 142024@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Lovely car the Allegro, eh nickc ?</p> <p>If only it hadn't been so badly put together.</p> <p>.</p> <p> <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_rolleyes.gif" title=":roll:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-142003 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:52:30 +0000 grizzlygus 142003@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>GG - As a Notts lad with a father who worked in the pits, has it ever occoured to you that they just didn't agree with the others, with striking in general or for some other reason, and preferred to earn money for their families?</blockquote></p> <p>Erm....... yes, it had occurred to me that they 'didn't agree with the others' <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_confused.gif" title=":?" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p> Although remember 5,000 Notts miners did very bravely support the strike. Unlike miners in other coal fields they didn't have the support and local community backup which was so vital and important. That was one of the reason's why my local trades council provided food, money, and accommodation to some Notts striking miners during the year long dispute - don't forget that in the end, all their benefit payments were stopped in an attempt to starve them back to work. Something which must have been particularly difficult for them, as their scab colleagues were raking in the money.</p> <p>My reason for mentioning the Notts working miners was that doctornickriviera appeared to be under the impression that the strike's failure was a forgone conclusion. Far from it imo. In fact I believe that it's highly like that the strike would have succeeded had all of Notts miners come out in support - I doubt very much that the government had planned for the strike to last a whole year.</p> <p>And as for your comment of 'cutting their own throats' PP. It was the Notts working miners who indeed cut their own throat. "Trust us and the Union of Democratic Mineworkers" they were told by the government, "Turn your backs on the NUM, and the Notts collieries will have a bright future". They did exactly that - and slit their own throats.</p> <p>For over 20 years now, Britain has had weak trade unions. Far from bringing the prosperity which the British people were promised it would bring, it has resulted in, completely predictably, Britain having the worst employment conditions of any comparable country. And Britain today, because of the post-trade union destruction of it's industrial base, is worst placed of any of the other advanced industrial countries to deal with the present global economic crises. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141986 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:47:37 +0000 nickc 141986@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><em>Your brown allegro estate might well have been an "awful" car, but what has that got to do with Derek Robinson and the trade unions ?</em></p> <p>Mostly because the workers were crap at making cars. '70's BL cars had to be more or less re-built by the garages before being sold on to the public. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141704 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 18:07:16 +0000 PeterPoddy 141704@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>GG - As a Notts lad with a father who worked in the pits, has it ever occoured to you that they just didn't agree with the others, with striking in general or for some other reason, and preferred to earn money for their families?<br /> What's wrong with that?<br /> They were bullied and harassesd. I remember going fishing early in the mornings and seeing the police checking vehicles for flying pickets. It wasn't nice, but the Notts miners had just as strong principals as the strikers, if not more so if you take the bullying into account....</p> <p>Food for thought....<br /> <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>Personally, I wouldn't strike for anyone, for any reason, not ever.<br /> Maybe it's in my blood, my experiences, but I can't see for the life of me what it achieves. I regard it as the dumbest thing one could possibly do. "Yeah X has happened, let's cut our own throats and not get paid for a few months. Great!"<br /> Yes......If you say so..... </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141652 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:50:06 +0000 uponthedowns 141652@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><em>Trade unions strikes were not the reason for the destruction of car manufacturing and the coal industry in the UK, rather for the reasons I've outlined, it was management decisions and government policies which were responsible.</em></p> <p>Can't believe I actually agree with GG on something. Yes union power needed to be reduced to allow management to manage. However Margaret Thatcher having achieved that and given management the power to manage British management mainly cocked it up. Where companies, like BA, were competently managed they became world leaders. Where they were managed by generations of incompetents like Leyland/Rover they went to the wall. Not helped by the short-termism of the banks and successive Tory and Nu Labour governments acting like industry didn't matter. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141561 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:12:58 +0000 grizzlygus 141561@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>"Angry and rattled" how exactly?</blockquote></p> <p>As in "angry and rattled".</p> <p>Would you like me to elaborate ? </p> <p>I could start with the wild allegation that I am "gloating" about something, move on to your comment that I am "bitter" (strangely enough in the same sentence) and so on........</p> <p>But it would all be rather boring would it not ? </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141524 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:54:55 +0000 sootyandjim 141524@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Sorry, I can't leave you with that as the last word. ."Angry and rattled" how exactly?<br /> In the respect that I must be because I don't share your opinion on something that happened over two decades ago, was not a black and white situation then and on which a lot of 'facts' and 'counter facts' has been written by both sides of the debate as well as those Nottinghamshire miners in the middle?<br /> I must apologise, I'll brush up on my newspeak as soon as I can. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141486 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:42:50 +0000 grizzlygus 141486@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>sootyandjim - Member </p> <p>" Would be good to see Victualic back on form as well."</p> <p>The angry young man version of me is being slowly but surely erased. </p> <p>Posted 2 days ago # Report-Post</blockquote></p> <p>.</p> <p>It's a slow process, is it not Vic ? ................................you sound angry and rattled. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141443 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:21:15 +0000 m0nster2 141443@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Certainly in the UK, the unions are pretty weak.<br /> They have little/nothing to do with the current situation.<br /> (In Germany and the US, for example, they are infinitely more powerful)</p> <p>Back to the OP, and with no axe to grind (despite, personally, being wholly dependent on the industry surviving):<br /> There is a worldwide credit crisis.<br /> People simply aren't buying 'luxuries'.<br /> Motor cars can be considered a luxury - as long as one's current vehicle hasn't died.<br /> Motor vehicles, by their nature, have a large amount of capital tied into them (both as material and intellectual property).<br /> Therefore, even after 15+ years of 'lean', 'just in time' processes the investment for any given, singular, vehicle commences years before it reaches a dealer - when the return on that initial investment starts to come back.<br /> Cashflow, I believe it is called.<br /> Regardless of legacy reasons for this, this <em>is</em> why.</p> <p>Hey. It is <em>far</em> from a perfect industry in the UK, but this is worldwide.<br /> In fact - the UK is a bit better off than some other auto-making countries.<br /> At least we still <em>make</em> something... as opposed to shifting funds around, or selling foreign phones etc etc. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141432 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:15:51 +0000 sootyandjim 141432@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Gg - If you rather not be drawn into a lenghty debate on the miners illegal withdrawl of labour then we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. So much has been written on this subject (including a lot of revisionist re-writing by the TUC to show there was solidarity with the NUM) that for every piece of 'evidence' you pluck from that indisputable source known as the internet I can no doubt pluck a counter piece which you will no doubt wish to rubbish if it doesn't suit your view. Of course my views of the events are ultimately concreted by the experiences of someone who actually lived and worked through the harassment rather than those gathered on some South London council estate from the local Socialist Workers seller.<br /> Enjoy the last word.<br /> ;o) </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141412 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:03:18 +0000 grizzlygus 141412@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>A slight correction to my previous post. Joe Gormley <em>didn't</em> call for a strike in 1981, he didn't need to - in feb that year thousands of miners across the country walked out in unofficial action after disclosures that the government was set to close 23 pits. The dispute was very quickly settled and the closures withdrawn, as the government hadn't yet fully prepared all it's plans for a national strike - they were prepared for it 3 years later. Notts miners walked out on unofficial action along with all the other miners in the country - there was no strike ballot. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141392 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:50:46 +0000 El-bent 141392@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I aggree the unions needed bringing down a peg or two but the state is now burdened with millions of people who are not working/on "the sick" which has got to be worse for all of us in the end. </blockquote></p> <p>Its a sign of desperation from those who supported and continue to support the policies of the Thatcher Government in the 80's that the only thing they can bang on about is bringing the unions down a "peg or two". </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141368 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:33:20 +0000 grizzlygus 141368@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I don't want get drawn into what I can see would possibly be a very long argument about the 1984/1985 miner strike Sooty - start another thread about it if you feel that strongly, and I might comment on that. But may I quickly comment on some of your claims which are simply not true. The TUC gave full support to NUM for whole duration of the strike. Indeed my local Trades Union Council's huge support for the miners, in real tangible ways, was very much based on the TUC's position. The strike was only declared illegal because it broke new legislation introduced by the then employment sec Norman Tebbit. In exactly the same way which the very recent strike calling for 'British jobs for British people' was completely and indisputably illegal - hardly a reason for not supporting it. Nor is it an argument for claiming that those who might have broken <em>that</em> strike weren't scabs. And btw, in 1981 Notts miners fully supported the strike against pit closures called by the then leader of the NUM, right-winger Joe Gormley, even though there was no strike ballot. The position the Notts NUM leadership took in 1984 was for political reasons, and had nothing at all to do with 'strike ballots'.</p> <p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/18/newsid_2550000/2550991.stm">1981: Thatcher gives in to miners</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141348 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:16:56 +0000 twohats 141348@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I heard on the news that SAAB haven't made a profit since 2001! </blockquote></p> <p>SAAB have been making a loss for over 20 years! Its the reason it was sold to GM in the 1st place! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble/page/2#post-141322 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:00:18 +0000 sootyandjim 141322@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Oh and to directly comment on your poorly chosen quote.<br /> They didn't refuse to join a union, they formed their own one operated on democratic principles, they crossed no picket line as their union wasn't on strike (though neither was the NUM officially) and they weren't hired to replace striking workers as they only worked mines covered by the Union of Democratic Miners (that 'democratic' word again).<br /> As for gloating over how many mines were left in Nottinghamshire, is that the common behaviour of the bitter and undemocratic left? How very sad. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141306 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:47:49 +0000 sootyandjim 141306@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Scab may be apt if it were a legal strike, but seeing as trade unions are democratic organisations and no democratic ballot was held before the illegal withdrawl of labour was announced by Scargill they never crossed an official, legal picket line and hence were not scabs.<br /> The 'strike' was never legal and hence in the eyes of the law and the TUC at the time the action was an illegal withdrawl of labour accompanied by harassment of people going about their lawful business.<br /> As an aside, seeing as the Notts miners didn't want to be linked to the actions of an undemocratic organisation it was prudent that they form their own democratic union as a voice against their oppression by a socialist tyrant. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141283 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:35:30 +0000 grizzlygus 141283@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The Nottinghamshire working miners were indeed "scabs" Sooty, by the very definition of the word :</p> <p><a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scab">Scab : a. A worker who refuses membership in a labor union.b. An employee who works while others are on strike; a strikebreaker.c. A person hired to replace a striking worker.</a></p> <p>How a strike is called, is totally irrelevant to the definition of the word. Please feel free to disagree with everything I've said, by not with my use of the English language - well not in this case anyway.</p> <p>BTW I am fully aware that not all Notts miners were scabs, and many did in fact support their union in defiance of their local officials. Indeed for the entire duration of the strike, my local Trades Council had the privilege of providing accommodation and support to some Nottinghamshire striking miners as they lobbied and picketed in the London area during the year long dispute (we also had very close links with the Ellington colliery in Durham and the Kent miners)</p> <p>Sadly the Notts striking miners failed, and as a result of the actions of the Notts working miners and their scab union the Union of Democratic Miners, the industry in Nottingham was decimated. By 1999 <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_company_file/443205.stm">only four pits in Nottinghamshire survived out of 26 working mines 10 years previously.</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141235 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:55:38 +0000 sootyandjim 141235@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Had the Notts miners with the support of the government and the right-wing press not scabbed and formed their own scab union, then the strike would almost certainly have been successful.</blockquote></p> <p>The Notts miners were not 'scabs'. The Nottinghamshire branch of the NUM were in fact the only branch in the country to abide by the NUM's own constitution, whereas other branches that followed Scargill out on his undemocratic strike (failing to hold a ballot before strike action) and later harassment of Notts miners through the use of flying pickets were acting illegally, against their own constitution and without the support of the TUC.</p> <p>Scargill was only using his position at leader of the NUM to further his personal political aims, strangely a very similar accusation to that often lobbed from the left against Margaret Thatcher for taking on the unions.</p> <p>Of a personal note my father-in-law was (still is in his heart) a Nottinghamshire miner, as was his brother and I have heard first hand accounts of how Scargill's bully boys turned up at the pit gates to harass the old fellas who worked the pit head and kids waiting for their dads before scarpering when the shift finished and some proper men turned up. Like all bullies they were a bunch of cowards, but gullible cowards led by a tyrant who is on record as a paid up supporter of Uncle Joe, the chap who killed quite a few more folk than that nasty little Austrian ever did.</p> <p>Dance on Thatcher's grave? I'd dance on Scargill now whilst the nasty little twerp is still breathing. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141191 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:18:43 +0000 grizzlygus 141191@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>doctornickriviera I'm sightly confused by your comments. Your brown allegro estate might well have been an "awful" car, but what has that got to do with Derek Robinson and the trade unions ? </p> <p>The Allegro was designed and developed by a private car manufacturer. If it was a failure, then presumably the responsibility for that clearly lies with the management. After all, even if there hadn't been "red robbo walk outs because they werent given their fag breaks" as you put it, the car would still have been 'awful' and therefore presumably a failure.</p> <p>I'm also confused by your claim : "Arthur scargill what an idiot taking the miners out on strike in the spring when coal is not needed". The NUM was on strike for an entire year in 1984/1985. During that time coal was very much needed, as indeed it is still needed today - present UK coal consumption is at very similar levels to what it was 20 years ago.</p> <p> Hence the reason why firstly, the NCB and power stations had been ordered by the government to stock pile coal in preparation for the strike. And secondly, why the Nottingham working miners were so important in defeating the strike. Had the Notts miners with the support of the government and the right-wing press not scabbed and formed their own scab union, then the strike would almost certainly have been successful.</p> <p>Furthermore, the strike was <u>purely</u> against pit closures (Coal not Dole) the NUM arguing that the then government had plans for full-scale pit closures with the last few remaining pits being privatised. The government vehemently denied this, claiming that many pits had a future specially the so-called "super pits". Which was one of the main reasons why Notts miners carried on working. The government also very strongly denied that it had any plans to privatise the industry. </p> <p>We now know that the government was in fact lying, and that the NUM was telling the truth. Had there been no strike, the government would simply have done what they had always intended to do. The only thing which might have saved the industry, would have been if the strike had been successful. </p> <p>And incidentally, the strike was nowhere as futile nor doomed to failure from the start, as you appear to suggest. If this had been the case, the government would hardly have felt the need to order the deep infiltration of the NUM by MI5. Stella Rimington head of MI5 at the time, has openly admitted of MI5's involved in the strike, and it's responsibility for discrediting the NUM.</p> <p>Trade unions strikes were not the reason for the destruction of car manufacturing and the coal industry in the UK, rather for the reasons I've outlined, it was management decisions and government policies which were responsible. Indeed had British trade unions been as successful in their strike actions as their French counter-parts, we might today still have those industries and be actually in a position to 'prop them up' as Stoner puts it.</p> <p>This what 20 years of <u>tame</u> trade unions and the consequential de-industrialisation has resulted in :</p> <p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/4378322/Britain-to-suffer-worst-recession-of-any-advanced-nation-says-IMF.html">Britain to suffer worst recession of any advanced nation, says IMF</a></p> <p>Quote :</p> <p><strong>"The economy will shrink by 2.8 per cent this year, with Britain faring significantly worse than the United States, Western Europe or Japan <u>due to its reliance on the financial sector</u>, the International Monetary Fund said."</strong></p> <p>Still, there's nothing quite like blaming the trades unions for everything, is there ? At least it lets management and governments off the hook.</p> <p>It's a shame that years of unrelenting anti-trade union propaganda by the right-wing press, media, and apparently even the secret services**. leads to the clouding of the issues by what would appear otherwise liberal individuals such as yourself doctornickriviera.</p> <p>**<a href="http://www.five.org.uk/security/mi5org/index.htm">the Director-General was Stella Rimington (DT950626), who was previously head of F2 branch and responsible for discrediting the Mineworkers' union during the 1984 coal strike</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141114 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:11:29 +0000 edd 141114@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I think that there is a bit of both. I agree that prices do not just reflect manufacturing costs. That said look at the number of parts in a car (even a very basic model like those being discussed). The price always amazes me because no matter how automated and efficient the building process is there are simply a huge number of manufacturing steps that need to be conducted to make a car. This is offset in part by the volumes produced giving economies of scale but also at the low end there are also incredibly tight margins. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141079 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:50:51 +0000 sootyandjim 141079@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Another point is that because at the bottom end the margins are tiny; (the list price for a basic Kia Picanto is GBP 5,995 and list price for the more mainstream Ford Ka is GBP 7,945).</blockquote></p> <p>You've quoted 'list prices' which provides little illumination on bottom end margins.</p> <p>Because the Kia Picanto is priced nearly £2K doesn't mean that it costs £2K less to produce than the Ford Ka. In fact its possible that the Ford Ka is cheaper to produce because of the huge amount of trickle down technology used in its production from other vehicles in the Ford range, paid for already from sales of those other vehicles. It could be that the reason price the Ka higher than the Picanto is purely down to where Ford believe they should pitch it to protect brand image or just at the price point they believe the market will accept. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141037 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:28:15 +0000 edd 141037@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The obvious answer to your question is because no one buying a car at the moment.</p> <p>Another point is that because at the bottom end the margins are tiny; (the list price for a basic Kia Picanto is GBP 5,995 and list price for the more mainstream Ford Ka is GBP 7,945). With tiny margins you have to sell in huge volumes to make a profit and going back to my original point non one is buying cars. This makes it hard for manufacturers.</p> <p>GM and Ford have their own issues to cope with as well...</p> <p>Closing thought:<br /> TrekTop Fuel 9.9 SSL list price GBP 4,500<br /> Kia Picanto list price GBP 5,995 </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-141005 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:04:59 +0000 PeterPoddy 141005@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>why pay full price for a new car when in 3 years it will be worth 25% of that value.<br /> </blockquote></p> <p>Exactly.<br /> We bought a 3 year old Focus Zetec Estate from a local used car dealers 2 weeks ago. It's a small, well established place with a good local reputation and they always seem to cream off the best condition, lowest milage cars to sell, from 2-5 years old. The salesman told us they'd had their busiest December ever and they nearly ran out of stock to sell! </p> <p>Why?<br /> Well, said Focus has 16k on the clock, one owner, utterly IMMACULATE, even still smells new, full history: It cost £16,000-ish new and we paid £6000 which is 62.5% depreciation that the previous owner has paid for us...! Well, they paid more than that because the garage has made a tidy profit, of that you can be sure!</p> <p>New cars are a mugs game, and I think people are now realising that chucking 10 grand down the drain to have a new 09 plate is plain stupid. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-140982 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:56:32 +0000 doctornickriviera 140982@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Oh yeah i aggree, 70's uk cars were awful( my dad had a brown allegro estate-yuk!) and the unions do have themselves to blame from the red robbo walk out on strike in a instant because they werent given their fag breaks. Arthur scargill what an idiot taking the miners out on strike in the spring when coal is not needed!<br /> I aggree the unions needed bringing down a peg or two but the state is now burdened with millions of people who are not working/on "the sick" which has got to be worse for all of us in the end. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-140974 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:52:03 +0000 sootyandjim 140974@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>... thanks largely to the 80's policy of privatisation and selling everything off for short term gain!....</blockquote></p> <p>Which lets be fair was based on the back of not wanting a return to the policy of the unions in the 70's to strike over every niff naff and trivia 'problem' and thus burden the state with large workforces of ineffective employees in nationlised industries with an equally large amount of real estate and plant to support.</p> <p>Of course the government is currently supporting the car industry so that hasn't been entirely successful but at least they're not all out on strike over the type of biscuits sold in the canteen. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-140944 Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:33:07 +0000 doctornickriviera 140944@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Well at least france are propping up their own industries and looking after their own workforce. If things do really take a dive honda toyota nissan etc could easily pull the plug on the uk to look after their home interests. Britain is in a very shaky and exposed position at the moment as we don't own many of our industries anymore so it's not in our hands!- thanks largely to the 80's policy of privatisation and selling everything off for short term gain!<br /> We have made alot of our money in the last 20 years in the finacial sector also and that has gone spectacularly tits up!</p> <p>there may be trouble ahead.... </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-140125 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:18:05 +0000 aracer 140125@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I got in trouble on here not that long ago applauding some company standing up to recalcitrant unions and firing their staff... I wont make that mistake again</blockquote><br /> In trouble with whom? I'd be quite proud of getting into trouble with the most obvious people I can think of on here... </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-139890 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:12:46 +0000 Stoner 139890@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><em>french backed their own industries in the 80's</em></p> <p>propping-up I think is the word you're looking for doc. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-139883 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:11:53 +0000 doctornickriviera 139883@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Well at least the french backed their own industries in the 80's unlike our lot who shut them all down i suppose. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-139822 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:54:43 +0000 sootyandjim 139822@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>'Citroen - full of technology' now that scares the sh*t out of me.</blockquote></p> <p>It would have me too but the French are a damn sight better at building cars now than they used to be.</p> <p>(Happy Citroen C4 owner. Yes the 'full of technology' car). </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-139809 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:49:49 +0000 Stoner 139809@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>you cant beat a good recession to give inefficient industries a rollocking good shakedown.</p> <p>Yes there will be blood and <font size="1">it's obviously terrible for those getting laid off, but*</font> it will improve the health of our economy as a whole greatly.</p> <p>*I got in trouble on here not that long ago applauding some company standing up to recalcitrant unions and firing their staff... I wont make that mistake again <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-139799 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:47:02 +0000 doctornickriviera 139799@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>'Citroen - full of technology'</blockquote><br /> and lovingly built by the french! That's the scary bit! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/i-dont-understand-why-the-car-makers-are-in-trouble#post-139795 Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:45:15 +0000 Earl 139795@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I hate the way the car industy works. I want reliability,reliability,reliability,reliability - not lots of useless extras that cost a ton to fix when they go wrong. </p> <p>'Citroen - full of technology' now that scares the sh*t out of me. </p>