Zone 2 on a turbo trainer...

Just wondering if getting something more padded might help.

I find less padded actually helps (although some is needed), I recently bought some gonso sqlabs cycling shorts which are excellent.

I did a 10 mile [s]run[/s] jog yesterday in Z2, which was just under 8min/mile pace (average HR 123bpm).

Can't imagine getting into Z2 walking.

Either way - god it was boring 😀

I tried a Z2.... i failed.

Ug, I missed the Garmin element, my Garmin tells me at times that I need 72hours recovery from a 20 minute warm up! I don’t base anything on what my Garmin tells me now…

I always interpreted this as 72 hours before adding intensity as opposed to nothing but Z1…seems to fit better!

Walking fast puts me into z2. I can't run without being in Z4 though.

my Garmin tells me at times that I need 72hours recovery from a 20 minute warm up!

Did you just get it? Mine did daft things at first before it learned how fit I actually am.

crosshair

Yeah that’s a great point Kryton- the bigger, more efficient your mitochondria, the more lactate they can consume too. So when you do get to an intensity session- you’ll find you can ride harder for longer despite not having training those zones for ages.

I saw an article or video or something about this a while back that mentioned a lot of people plateau because they concentrate on only high-intensity & they reach a point where their low-twitch muscle development doesn't keep up, so they are limited by how much lactate they can process which hits a ceiling.
I think to an extent this is where I have ended up, hence why I have decided to try more of the lower intensity riding.

What I found interesting about the ride I did on Sunday was that even though it was 'only' 41km/100 mins with an average HR of 141 and a max of 155, I found it surprisingly fatiguing towards the end. I think I was probably erring on the side of caution with not going too high on effort, so might push a bit harder next time for a higher average HR. But my legs were definitely starting to tire.

Yes! Z2 isn’t easy. Especially if you’re not used to it. When you think you accumulate maybe 20-40 mins of ‘work’ during an interval session- 1x60/90/100/120/180 @ 75% ftp doesn’t actually sound so simple.

And what you describe is that classic “new to TR/Zwift/Sufferfest” bump. Once you’ve experienced that, you have to then go back and build the base you should have done first 🤣

Yes! Z2 isn’t easy.

Yeah. I used to train with a powermeter and a coach, and I did loads. But that was years ago - I only recently regained a power meter and I've been for a few 3-4hr road rides. I was surprised how badly I was flagging 3hrs into yesterday's - legs pretty shredded, even though it was really relaxed at first. My base fitness has clearly diminished and I'm relying on glycogen metabolism rather than fat.

I found it surprisingly fatiguing towards the end. / Yes! Z2 isn’t easy.

Indeed - some of the hardest days of training for last years Pivot 12h solo was getting up at 7am on Sunday to face a second 3-4hrs of Z2 for the weekend. I question whether I'll ever do it again.

there were still times on inclines where my heart rate would start to come up & I was worried

I just stop for a couple of minutes

An ebike would sort this issue.

Useful detail thanks. Hence the detail in my Q, how it depends on what defines Z2 – you’re describing a Z2 that’s (i think?) different to the trad HR Z2 which is a % of max or % of FTP etc.

yep, thats why i went down the testing route. What also surprised me is i didn't need to do very long rides in zone 2 to improve my base. I did 1hr (on rollers to make it more interesting) for each session. At times this was twice a day. 1hr at lunch and 1hr in the evening. After doing this muy aerobic base point went from using 43% of energy from fat to 83% which meant i didn't really bonk anymore

I do think that Z2 on a turbo is more time-effective than in real life. It's pretty difficult to keep in z2 all the time on a real road - anyone who's tried this with a power meter knows that you have to really dawdle up climbs and hammer like a nutter down them which means you end up going really fast and, at least round here, often too fast for the road conditions if there are houses and parked cars etc. And there are always junctions and roundabouts etc. I got quite good at managing this by riding down hills and powering towards junctions with the brakes on, but it's a bit daft. On a trainer however it's easy to spend nearly 100% of your time at z2 - I only stop pedalling to give my arse a rest every ten minutes or so.

@trickydisco that's interesting. I may try to knock out z2 during the week days as well as at weekends. I have a feeling that an hour of z2 is going to be fairly low stress. I might need to buy some more cycling gear though!

I do think that Z2 on a turbo is more time-effective than in real life.

agree 100%. It's much more concentrated. This was prescribed from a coach in Bristol at the time. It worked really well for me. Beforehand my base fitess was awful and often woudl bonk on longer rides. He said thats because i was caning through glycogen rather than fat. As an efficient machine i was crap!

I do think that Z2 on a turbo is more time-effective than in real life.

There is also some maths somewhere about coasting & micro variations in power which shows that constant power on a turbo is something roughtly/like 1 an 1/3rd "more"

E.G. a constant 2hrs Z2 Turbo reflects 3hrs outdoors.

This was prescribed from a coach in Bristol at the time. It worked really well for me. Beforehand my base fitess was awful and often woudl bonk on longer rides. He said thats because i was caning through glycogen rather than fat. As an efficient machine i was crap!

Same for me. My 2021 12hr solo top ten was 10hr 26 mins on the power with an average of 195w over a 11:05hr duration. My Z2 range is 168w-221w. It was the long hours of Z2 turbo that contributed to that.

I didn't ride to a constant deliberately but did ride to minimise hard efforts and to avoid coasting wherever I could.

This was prescribed from a coach in Bristol at the time. It worked really well for me. Beforehand my base fitess was awful and often woudl bonk on longer rides. He said thats because i was caning through glycogen rather than fat. As an efficient machine i was crap!

Yeah, I've posted this many times before but that was me. However, I fixed it with endless long slogs through dark winter weekday nights - two split turbo sessions in front of Netflix would have been vastly easier!

The most interesting thing for me in this thread is that Kryton can ride at 37.5kph for 2hrs 40minutes in Zone 2, yet he still agonizes on here about his race fitness.

The most interesting thing for me in this thread is that Kryton can ride at 37.5kph for 2hrs 40minutes in Zone 2, yet he still agonizes on here about his race fitness.

Unfortunately being able to do that doesn't make me an XCO/XCM race winner.

What also surprised me is i didn’t need to do very long rides in zone 2 to improve my base. I did 1hr (on rollers to make it more interesting) for each session. At times this was twice a day. 1hr at lunch and 1hr in the evening. After doing this muy aerobic base point went from using 43% of energy from fat to 83% which meant i didn’t really bonk anymore

That is interesting, I thought longer was needed - takes me 20-30 mins to feel warmed up on av Z2 rides. But, though not sure w/o testing, I think my metabolism is already pretty well adapted from a lot of base/fasted riding, distance riding etc. I hardly eat on rides unless going at a decent pace, can do long rides in Z2 on empty (not convinced it's a beneficial thing to do often though). Still, may try 1hr Z2 turbo session on rainy days. Podcast and pedal.

I think the efficacy of z2 depends hugely on your genetics.

Some people already have more type I muscle fibres, so they are better at long slow efforts, so that's what they do - they don't like sprinting much, they don't do it, and a bike ride means a long steady 4hr spin through the countryside with a banana half way round, and of course they burn what little fat they have and become even better adapted to it.

Some people have more type II, so they are powerful and like smashing it everywhere. Technical MTBing provides ample opportunities to redline it on singletrack and power up those tricky climbs. They can do this well because they have more sprint power and they end up enjoying it more, so they do it more. It depletes glycogen, so they get chug gels on the way round and binge when they get home to replenish, because having low glycogen makes you crave carbs.

I think this is why there are so many more tubby MTBers than roadies.

So if you are the latter kind of person genetically then you benefit much more from lots of z2 riding than if you are the former. I was told that if you're a sprinter it's possible to increase your type I/II ratio and become much better at endurance, but if you're an endurance rider you can't go the other way very effectively.

Maybe, I don't know. I expect it makes a difference once you're getting to higher race levels but for the rest of us riding is a mix of short sharp efforts and steady outputs and yeah, you often develop what you're good at because it's either easier or more rewarding. Took me a while to get away from being pretty bad with energy management (since I was young) to being efficient over long rides.

Right, I'm off to do an hour in Z2 on the turbo which will be a first..

I think the efficacy of z2 depends hugely on your genetics.

Yep. This is what I discovered via being coached. My power curve/endurance is good at Z2, very narrow and poor at Z4/5/6 but I have a pretty strong sprint all of which lent itself to longer distance MTB Like Jameso I've never felt the need to eat much on long rides.

... wasn't as bad as I thought, tbh just sat there pedalling steady upper Z2 with a good podcast on the headphones is not a bad way to spend an hour. I've done 30 mins recovery rides there when doing 'proper' training but aside from intervals that's been it.

Back to the OP, I guess it's a case of what you do to stop an hour feeling like 2. I thought it went by fairly easily listening to a podcast I always find interesting, certainly compared to HI intervals with suitable music on where 4 mins seems a very long time and the whole session is a bit grim (I only have a dumb trainer, CBA with anything complex).

It couldn't replace outside miles for me but it could be a way to get an hour or 2 added Z2 or sweetspot time in each week. The bit I need convincing on is that 1hr of Z2 is beneficial if I'm already fairly well adapted to base pace, but it certainly is easier on the turbo to hold a pace +/- 3 or 4bpm and stay right on that upper Z2 threshold (assuming I'm using the right measure, which is the next Q).

not a bad way to spend an hour

Lightweight! I 'challenged' myself this lunchtime and managed 1hr05m... 😎

Not a great place to be if you're in a slightly depressed introspective mood as I discovered, heart rate was probably rising just due to going over angry work emails that I'd never send 🙄

Got better at the end when I started focusing on a really smooth pedal stroke and trying to 'correct' my weird asymmetry on the pedals, gave me something to focus on.

I'm guessing 75bpm is more recovery/sleep than z2. I may have to change event in 15 mins

assuming I’m using the right measure, which is the next Q)

I'm still using the 'singing along' measure which is tricky because I don't really know the words to many songs. Even brief choruses leave me a wee bit out of breath even at my usual Z2 heart rate/~65% FTP, so either I'm still going too hard or (hopefully) singing along is slightly harder than talking.

It couldn’t replace outside miles for me but it could be a way to get an hour or 2 added Z2 or sweetspot time in each week.

For me, it's most useful at the weekend when I just can't be arsed to give up my day on some dull ride or when it's pissing with rain etc. I can take my own snacks and beverages and watch all the Netflix stuff my wife won't like in relative comfort.

Lightweight indeed.. Can't say I'm inspired by people doing 6hr turbo sessions. Well, apart from that story about John Stamstad. The master of dumb training.

Buy some rollers for your Z2 work.

I personally think the people who bemoan turbo work are over-hyping how exciting riding is fullstop 🤣🤣🤣🤣

If you want to hit your goals, you need to put in the volume. Distract the heck out of yourself and get on with it 💪🏻

I personally think the people who bemoan turbo work are over-hyping how exciting riding is fullstop

I think you're doing the wrong riding outside in that case.

Trails are awesome!

But you’re still just sat on a saddle pedalling your bike.

Fun trails are a place to *spend* your fitness. Roads and turbo are a place to accumulate it 😉

There is a certain irony in people that don't like endurance training complaining that they can't stay within endurance zones on mtb rides ;o)

But you’re still just sat on a saddle pedalling your bike

Maybe that's how you see it, based upon some of your riding by numbers I also see that too. But trust me, it bears no resemblance to my rides. Whether I'm fast, slow, fit, fat, doesn't change the enjoyment I get from riding outdoors.

Trails are awesome!

People training are talking about 6-10hrs a week. Now, I dunno about where you live but after a few years at that rate my rides get pretty samey.

I'm sure most of us really do enjoy riding outside on good trails, but targetted training is a different activity and chances are you'll be trying to fit both in. I'm sure footballers enjoy football, but they don't just play six football matches a week, do they? It's specific training during the week then a match at weekends.

I wasn't denying that, the point made was that they're both just sitting on a bike pedalling, which I completely disagreed with.

I do a lot of Zwift for various reasons, but it's so not riding a bike

I think I'm on 29,000kms on Zwift.

It is literally, riding a bike

In the same way as I'm not a fighter pilot, or a Lego superhero or am F1 driver, it's not cycling

It's sort of riding a bike. But not

Yeah, I sort of get that. It's a different form of exercise that just happens to use most of the same muscles, in a very similar way.

Mine certainly isn't a bike. For a start, it only has one wheel 😉

Zwift is to cycling what Mario Kart is rally driving?

@weeksy If you spent all the time you spend on Zwift on local trails, you’d get bored.

But if you want to get stronger at pedalling a bike, you need to pedal a bike, a lot, mostly in Z2.

So, instead of looking at the turbo with disdain- look at it as a hugely efficient tool. A means to an end. A place to tick off the hour’s so that when you do get to play fun bikes, pedalling is easy and not a chore.

When Rich and I came over and we went off with you on the local gravel- was that any different than how you ‘enjoy riding the trails?’ because I was still riding to numbers *and* enjoying the trails? 😀

Last night I hit the lanes for some easy Z2. Yes it was a little cooler than the dining room and there was a bit of fun steering on wet leaves occasionally but to all intents and purposes it was the same as if I’d done it on the turbo. Same cadence, same power, same duration, listening to the same podcast 🤷🏻‍♂️
I mean, I like where we live but it’s no Makuri island is it 🤣🤣

I could hop on my mtb, Z2 to Swinley, do a lap of blue and red, then ride home again.
Would that be training, fun on trails or what? because ultimately it would mostly still be just sitting in a saddle pedalling a bike 🤣🤣

(In all seriousness I must make time to do that- it’s been on my list of fun things to do for over a year!).

I can't ride z2 easily around here. There are open roads but they are all fast main roads; the nice riding roads are all far too steep up and down to maintain z2.

Zwift is to cycling what Mario Kart is rally driving?

I said years ago they should release a Mario Kart inspired map…complete with banana skins and all that

Yesterday i hopped on the turbo and did a custom workout..10 min warmup...60min at zone 2 (according to power..185 watts to an FTP of 285), then 5 min cool down.

Watched a shite netflix film and ticked off one of the new Makuri island routes!

My HR, according to garmin and strava, was 50% z1, 50% z2.... ergo, I guess I need to raise the HR a tad in order to actually be in zone 2, right?! So....more wattage needed i guess!

DrP

more wattage needed i guess!

Your FTP is roughly the same as mine, FWIW I ride Z2 at 200-210.

Cool... i guess when working with POWER, it may not always tally with the expected HR zones...

Will up the wats to 200..
My plan is to build up fromt eh hour by 20 in segments!

DrP

I can’t ride z2 easily around here. There are open roads but they are all fast main roads; the nice riding roads are all far too steep up and down to maintain z2.

Same here, the roads are either UP or DOWN, there is very little that is nicely cruisealongable (and the stuff that is is a half hour ride away, so that's adding an hour to any ride from the off)

@molgrips What I’ve started looking for for Z2 is the most amount of steady, uninterrupted climbing I can find.
My favourite loop at the minute is a climb almost out the door, then about 11 miles of gently rolling flat/downhill, a quick stint on a main road but then I have 40 minutes of uninterrupted gradual ascent. That brings me to the hill by Weeksy’s village and a steep, quick descent which is a good mid ride breather.
Then it’s slightly bigger roads until the hills start, a loop round that village, back the way I came and a gradually-uphill cycle path to home.
On the road bike at pace it would be 😴 but on the gravel bike at Z2 it’s perfect. Usually average around 15mph.

Then the other night, I found a 40 minute loop using some of the same roads where you gradually climb for 30 mins, descend quickly but not too quickly to pedal for about 15 mins, and then repeated it twice.

Strava route planner will help you find flat routes if you’re a sub too.

(Speaking generally- I’m sure you know your area 😀)

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/zone-2-training-question.1206794/

Here's some more for the cult 😉

But if you want to get stronger at pedalling a bike, you need to pedal a bike, a lot, mostly in Z2.

Or you could do the sweetspot thing? My take, fwiw, after spending over 18 months off the bike thanks to covid, is that I'd always rather ride outdoors. Being inside felt like slow suffocation and being sat on a turbo not that much better and I say that as someone who's done a fair bit of zwifting and indoor training in the past.

Long covid made me think about what it was I wanted/got from riding bikes and essentially it's being outside and going quite fast by my standards. It isn't being sat on the turbo for multiple hours watching digital paint drying in front of me. I like being fit, I like riding bikes, but I'm not buying the idea that the only way I can achieve that is by doing endless zone 2 rides on a stationary bike.

Sure, it might be the most effective way to reach 100% of your potential if you're a pro racer, but I'll settle for 80% plus and actually spending time riding rather than sitting inside. I'm happy to batter myself for an hour with intensive intervals. I'm happy to do hour-long sweetspot if it's really foul out, but trying to argue that riding on Zwift is somehow the same as riding a bike beyond the mechanics just feels blinkered to me.

I'm sure I could do it, but honestly, I'd rather be out in the fresh air actually riding. YMMV etc.

Well, I think the real big takeaway from the latest Inigo San Milan and Peter Attia craze is that Z2 is really, really important for metabolic health. (Generally- not just relative to bike performance).

Looked at through that lens- riding the turbo in Z2 is way more fun than a brisk walk/slow jog and has the benefit of making your fun rides easier (because you have bike specific fitness).

The second big takeaway that too far into tempo (ie heading towards Sweetspot) and you stop the endurance benefits for the next 10-30 mins. Ie sweetspot actually ruins an endurance ride but tricks you into feeling stronger because you improve your muscular endurance AT sweet spot pace.

Sweetspot/threshold for vanity- Z2 for sanity 😉 🤣

Looked at through that lens- riding the turbo in Z2 is way more fun than a brisk walk/slow jog and has the benefit of making your fun rides easier (because you have bike specific fitness).

Given the choice between a long, brisk walk in the Peak District where I live and hours sat in zone 2 on the turbo, I know where I'm going thanks and it's not Watopia 🙂