@weeksy If you spent all the time you spend on Zwift on local trails, you’d get bored.
But if you want to get stronger at pedalling a bike, you need to pedal a bike, a lot, mostly in Z2.
So, instead of looking at the turbo with disdain- look at it as a hugely efficient tool. A means to an end. A place to tick off the hour’s so that when you do get to play fun bikes, pedalling is easy and not a chore.
When Rich and I came over and we went off with you on the local gravel- was that any different than how you ‘enjoy riding the trails?’ because I was still riding to numbers *and* enjoying the trails? 😀
Last night I hit the lanes for some easy Z2. Yes it was a little cooler than the dining room and there was a bit of fun steering on wet leaves occasionally but to all intents and purposes it was the same as if I’d done it on the turbo. Same cadence, same power, same duration, listening to the same podcast 🤷🏻♂️
I mean, I like where we live but it’s no Makuri island is it 🤣🤣
I could hop on my mtb, Z2 to Swinley, do a lap of blue and red, then ride home again.
Would that be training, fun on trails or what? because ultimately it would mostly still be just sitting in a saddle pedalling a bike 🤣🤣
(In all seriousness I must make time to do that- it’s been on my list of fun things to do for over a year!).
I can't ride z2 easily around here. There are open roads but they are all fast main roads; the nice riding roads are all far too steep up and down to maintain z2.
Zwift is to cycling what Mario Kart is rally driving?
I said years ago they should release a Mario Kart inspired map…complete with banana skins and all that
Yesterday i hopped on the turbo and did a custom workout..10 min warmup...60min at zone 2 (according to power..185 watts to an FTP of 285), then 5 min cool down.
Watched a shite netflix film and ticked off one of the new Makuri island routes!
My HR, according to garmin and strava, was 50% z1, 50% z2.... ergo, I guess I need to raise the HR a tad in order to actually be in zone 2, right?! So....more wattage needed i guess!
DrP
more wattage needed i guess!
Your FTP is roughly the same as mine, FWIW I ride Z2 at 200-210.
Cool... i guess when working with POWER, it may not always tally with the expected HR zones...
Will up the wats to 200..
My plan is to build up fromt eh hour by 20 in segments!
DrP
I can’t ride z2 easily around here. There are open roads but they are all fast main roads; the nice riding roads are all far too steep up and down to maintain z2.
Same here, the roads are either UP or DOWN, there is very little that is nicely cruisealongable (and the stuff that is is a half hour ride away, so that's adding an hour to any ride from the off)
@molgrips What I’ve started looking for for Z2 is the most amount of steady, uninterrupted climbing I can find.
My favourite loop at the minute is a climb almost out the door, then about 11 miles of gently rolling flat/downhill, a quick stint on a main road but then I have 40 minutes of uninterrupted gradual ascent. That brings me to the hill by Weeksy’s village and a steep, quick descent which is a good mid ride breather.
Then it’s slightly bigger roads until the hills start, a loop round that village, back the way I came and a gradually-uphill cycle path to home.
On the road bike at pace it would be 😴 but on the gravel bike at Z2 it’s perfect. Usually average around 15mph.
Then the other night, I found a 40 minute loop using some of the same roads where you gradually climb for 30 mins, descend quickly but not too quickly to pedal for about 15 mins, and then repeated it twice.
Strava route planner will help you find flat routes if you’re a sub too.
(Speaking generally- I’m sure you know your area 😀)
But if you want to get stronger at pedalling a bike, you need to pedal a bike, a lot, mostly in Z2.
Or you could do the sweetspot thing? My take, fwiw, after spending over 18 months off the bike thanks to covid, is that I'd always rather ride outdoors. Being inside felt like slow suffocation and being sat on a turbo not that much better and I say that as someone who's done a fair bit of zwifting and indoor training in the past.
Long covid made me think about what it was I wanted/got from riding bikes and essentially it's being outside and going quite fast by my standards. It isn't being sat on the turbo for multiple hours watching digital paint drying in front of me. I like being fit, I like riding bikes, but I'm not buying the idea that the only way I can achieve that is by doing endless zone 2 rides on a stationary bike.
Sure, it might be the most effective way to reach 100% of your potential if you're a pro racer, but I'll settle for 80% plus and actually spending time riding rather than sitting inside. I'm happy to batter myself for an hour with intensive intervals. I'm happy to do hour-long sweetspot if it's really foul out, but trying to argue that riding on Zwift is somehow the same as riding a bike beyond the mechanics just feels blinkered to me.
I'm sure I could do it, but honestly, I'd rather be out in the fresh air actually riding. YMMV etc.
Well, I think the real big takeaway from the latest Inigo San Milan and Peter Attia craze is that Z2 is really, really important for metabolic health. (Generally- not just relative to bike performance).
Looked at through that lens- riding the turbo in Z2 is way more fun than a brisk walk/slow jog and has the benefit of making your fun rides easier (because you have bike specific fitness).
The second big takeaway that too far into tempo (ie heading towards Sweetspot) and you stop the endurance benefits for the next 10-30 mins. Ie sweetspot actually ruins an endurance ride but tricks you into feeling stronger because you improve your muscular endurance AT sweet spot pace.
Sweetspot/threshold for vanity- Z2 for sanity 😉 🤣
Looked at through that lens- riding the turbo in Z2 is way more fun than a brisk walk/slow jog and has the benefit of making your fun rides easier (because you have bike specific fitness).
Given the choice between a long, brisk walk in the Peak District where I live and hours sat in zone 2 on the turbo, I know where I'm going thanks and it's not Watopia 🙂
Can you clarify the difference between the terminolgy and how we'd work it out ?
Sweetspot, Z2, Tempo etc...
How much does crossing from one into the other affect it ?
e.g Dr P was saying he spent a bit too long in Z1 instead of Z2, is that better or worse than spending too much in Z3 and not enough in Z2 for example.
Where does fatigue and recovery come into this ?
Then that’s great- if you’re pushing on your Z2 with other exercise then you won’t need the volume on the bike.
As Steve Magness says- “Move. Often easy. Occasionally with ferocious intensity.
Get out and move. Most should be easy to moderate so you can keep coming back day after day. Some should be moderate/hard. And very occasionally you should "go see god" to remind yourself what going to the well is like!”
For those of us who want to be faster cyclists not just be healthier in general- the more specific the easy work, the better.
A couple of years ago I was asked to take part in a study on the effects of endurance activity on mental capacity. Part of the study involved a 5hr turbo ride at a prescribed Z2 power level.
No Zwift, no Tv, no music or phone, just 5hrs of staring at the power output. Think it's the hardest thing I've ever done on a bike and so a couple of hours on Zwift whilst it's pissing with rain outside is a walk in the park!
No Zwift, no Tv, no music or phone, just 5hrs of staring at the power output.
Used to race in the western league where WIll bergfelt used to race in. Used to hear that he'd often do 4hr stints facing a wall in the garage! He was a beast.
Now we’re getting proper Weeksy 🤓
It’s all confounded by the fact there’s several different zones 🤣🤣
But to try and keep it as simple as possible- there is considered to be two thresholds.
FTP at the higher end and your “aerobic threshold” at the lower end.
Your aerobic threshold is where you can “exercise whilst talking on the phone but the person on a phone call could tell you were exercising”
Everything below that is EASY. Everything above that is HARD.
80% of your training volume should be spent in the easy zone. 20% in the hard zone.
If you are on an easy ride and you cross that aerobic threshold, you have made it a hard ride. You’ve promoted an autoimmune response and caused oxidative stress.
The more hard work you want to do, the more easy work you need to do to support it.
Do too much hard work, and fatugue sets in and it *becomes* easy work anyway. You can’t cheat gainz.
If you are on an easy ride and you cross that aerobic threshold, you have made it a hard ride. You’ve promoted an autoimmune response and caused oxidative stress.
For how long ? seconds, minutes ?
Lets just say hypothetically i'm doing a Z2 and my Z2 according google quick search, heart rate would have a minimum threshold of 126 and maximum threshold of 144
So lets just say i'm cruising along at 125... but due to pushing on for a moment i hit 155 for 20s, before coming back down... is that affecting things ? Or can we sneak into the other zones short term without worrying?
I'm a bit concerned with some of the Z2 calculations too as they differ wildly.
The first one said 126-144 for me if my Max was 180...
https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/fitness/zone-2-training/#:~:text=When%20yo u're%20in%20Zone,without%20exceeding%20it%2C%20the%20better.
I then went to Polar who said if my max was 184 then it'd be
Zone 1 92 - 110 bpm
Zone 2 110 - 129 bpm
Zone 3 129 - 147 bpm
Zone 4 147 - 166 bpm
Zone 5 166 - 184 bpm
Or use the 3 HR zones and stay in Z1
You can also approximate your LT1 by subtracting your resting HR from your max HR for your HR range. Take 60 to 65% of that figure and add it back on to your resting HR.
The huge variety in zones is why I kept it simple 🤣 As Haze said, there’s a 3 zone model where Z1 is what we all mostly call Z2 🤣🤣
ISM is saying you ruin the next 20-30 mins of riding each time you venture too high.
Given that HR lags- you’ll have had to do quite an effort to add 10bpm…
Note if you ride to a consistent HR your power should drift downwards over time.
If you maintain the same power keep an eye on your HR so it doesn’t stray too far!
If you have a reasonable base this might not be such an issue.
For those of us who want to be faster cyclists not just be healthier in general- the more specific the easy work, the better.
There are plenty of extremely fast cyclists out there who don't spend hours sat on a turbo in zone 2.
They could potentially be even faster/stronger?!
I then went to Polar who said if my max was 184 then it’d be
Zone 1 92 – 110 bpm
Zone 2 110 – 129 bpm
Zone 3 129 – 147 bpm
Zone 4 147 – 166 bpm
Zone 5 166 – 184 bpm
Those are the trad zones I've always used. Z2 work is at the upper level of Z2 (eg 125-129 here) while trying hard not to go more than 4-5bpm higher than the Z2 upper limit for more than a moment. Seems ok to let it go 5bpm over occasionally as long as it immediately drops, it's good to get a feel for how your HR and output lag.
Useful thing to do is know your lactate threshold heart rate via 20/30 min tests or just familiarity of the level you can hold at leg burn stage. Then you can set up zones that reference % of that level as a check against the trad % of max zones.
https://joefrieltraining.com/common-but-confusing-training-terms/
Aerobic Threshold (AeT)
This is a relatively low level of intensity marked by light breathing and the feeling that you could maintain the effort for a few hours. It occurs at about 60% of your aerobic capacity or at about 70% of max heart rate or around 80% of lactate threshold. A ballpark way of determining your aerobic threshold is to subtract 30 beats per minute from your lactate threshold (see below) heart rate. In a sport science lab, aerobic threshold is usually defined as the intensity at which lactate just begins to accumulate above the resting level.
eg my trad Z2 goes up to about 133-135bpm based on a Max HR assumption of 188 which may be a bit low. I know my LTHR is around 170pbm though, so 80% of that means 136bpm at Aet - this is the point where I do feel my breathing changes, I can ride at 133-134 w/o any change to breathing but at 140 I need more oxygen and have passed that base level. Seems to all line up.
There are plenty of extremely fast cyclists out there who don’t spend hours sat on a turbo in zone 2.
Out of curiosity, what do they do ? Or put another way, what would you do if it's not Z2 as per Crosshairs thoughts ?
Genetics do play a role and some people prefer to do other aerobic activity or ride outside year round.
I’m outside at work all day so the trainer isn’t a chore for me. Just a great tool to avoid getting sick/injured on dark, cold winter training sessions.
80/20 philosophy comes from a description of how pro’s train….
There are plenty of extremely fast cyclists out there who don’t spend hours sat on a turbo in zone 2.
I guess once you've got to a high level you might need less Z2? Just maintain what you have.
For most of us it does seem to be true that "to go fast first you have to slow down", or you focus on the time-crunched/sweetspot methods if you can't do the base-build thing.
I know my LTHR is around 170pbm though
.. reading the Joe Friel link, actual FTP / 60MP (which I was using as an interchangeable term with LTHR) is 5% less than what you can do in the LTHR 20 mins test. Makes sense, no way could I hold 170 for 60 mins.
So an FTP HR of 162 would drop my aerobic threshold to 130, which is still fairly well aligned to the trad Z2 upper limit (max HR accuracy aside)
A quick XL table is handy to look at how these levels and %s line up.
Using the British Cycling Calculator my Zone 2 HR and Power ranges match pretty well.
It depends what you want to do though, doesn't it? I am fit enough to do either 3-4 hours (30-40km and 850-1100M climbing) on a hilly ride and I can translate that to 50-80km on a flatter ride on the XC bike. I don't need particularly to go faster than I do now, or longer than I do now. I'm not really interested in Watts or HR
I think Z2 indoors on a rollers or turbo needs a goal at the end of it, otherwise, get out on your bike and enjoy the scenery/changing seasons.
@weeksy https://crickles.casa/ will give you a ballpark FTP (from power data) and Lactate Threshold Heart Rate from heart rate data from your whole history on Strava, once you give the site permissions. There's a "HR Zones" tab based on the site's current LTHR estimate for you.
They have now been retitled to "sustainable levels" on the site. I noticed a year or so back after getting the link from a post here ~4 years ago, that there was something "wonky" going on with their approach ~2 years ago, because it would lower FTP/LTHR estimates simply because you had uploaded a gentle pootle! I'd suggest taking the highest values of the last ~6 weeks as your ballpark, unless you have been ill since, or you didn't do any ~20min+ efforts in that time period.
I’m just imagining all these solo cyclists out on the lanes, chatting away (or singing) to themselves to stay in the “conversational” zone 2! 😂
You've got to beat the Z2 boredom somehow 😀
What are you'll chatting to yourselves about though?!
I just go on breathing, you can tell when it changes/goes from easy to more air required..
I write these posts <breath> whilst <breath> using voice <breath> type 👍🏻
I'd just like to point out that there are lots of ways to be fast on a bike.
Just one example - if you are on an undulating time trial course, you could smash out the hills and go easier on the descents, or you could keep a constant power. Two riders might complete the course in the same time but one might've done a series of sprints and the other a constant 22 minute effort. The sprinty rider might end up quicker if they train to ride steadily, but they also might end up slower if they neglect their high intensity work.
There are many ways to achieve some goals, and only one to achieve others. 'Fast on a bike' is not really a specific definition of a goal - and yet, at the same time it is.
TTing was about the only thing I was actually good at.
To be fastest on a TT, spend less time going slow (go hard on the slow bits - hills).
I thought this was useful and relevant (and probably not worth starting a seperate thread on)
From Martin @ wattkg.com which I think is an excellent wee blog.
Key points for me is that, as I've discovered this year' trying any sort of structured intensity week in-week out doesn't work for me, injuries and illness and general life stress etc.
If I can just focus on doing Z2 whenever possible and when I get outside on the bike at the weekend maybe go hard on a couple of climbs or favourite gravel sections or something then I think I can find a happy medium.
"I recently asked a big number of cyclists on my newsletter (>2000) one important question:
"What is your number one source of frustration in your training?"
(thanks to everyone who answered)
Among the many replies, one stood out like a sore thumb.
Time.
More precisely, not having enough time for training. This was by far the most frequent reply.
So I wanted to grab the bull by the horns and discuss a solution for the time-crunched cyclists (spoiler alert: it's NOT to increase intensity).
The combination of work, family (children!) and social commitments may leave a rather small time window for your weekly training.
In my experience, many riders try to solve this problem in a way that is counter-productive.
Imagine the following:
You're going through a period with very limited time for training. To compensate for few training hours you focus on higher intensity. Threshold and high intensity intervals. Fast-paced endurance rides.
This arguably induces a greater level of training stimulus than training at lower intensities.
However, it's also a high-risk strategy. A bit like making a short cut across a mine field.
Why?
Because your ability to tolerate frequent intensity work rests upon your base of training hours.
What tends to happen is that your intervals and tempo rides produce a high degree of post-workout fatigue. Which requires recovery.
Now factor in your time-crunched life:
rest is already in poor supply
stress hormones are high
meal quality and frequency is poor
sleep is probably not in excess
Not a great state for your body in which to recover from high densities of training stress.
So you end up with a poor stress:recovery balance. -> Which leads to poor leg freshness. -> Which accumulates through further tempo and interval sessions. -> Until the point where you either go into overreaching, injuries or illness. And you need to take a forced break from training.
Which brings you quickly back to square one. Zero improvement. Stale performance.
Sound like someone you know?
Here is what I propose as a better alternative...
WHAT: Waiver the utopia of achieving a constant upward trending fitness curve.
Instead, break your emphasis into two deliberate focuses:
Maintenance
Development
Point 1: In time-crunched periods, focus on maintenance.
Accept the fact that for the next weeks (or months, or even year[s]) you may not achieve much improvement. Instead, focus on maintaining your current fitness level. And happily accept any smaller improvements that may come your way.
WHY: Because this is a far more sustainable approach. It's also, a great deal more enjoyable. Your quality of life tends to improve.
HOW: Do comfortable low intensity rides mostly. With a dash of regular high intensity work in modest amounts (example: 80% of your regular HIT interval session, performed x 1 every 10 days or so).
THE GREAT PARADOX: The enhanced consistency induced by this strategy may in time result in better maintenance of your fitness. And possibly greater development(!) As compared to the high-risk high intensity approach that often ends in forced training cessation.
Point 2: Here is bonus benefit of this strategy...
...when a more flexible time-window presents, you already have a well-maintained aerobic base. So you can go straight into a short build period and achieve strong fitness for racing.
One of the readers who responded to my initial question is a time-crunched medical doctor. He reported the following experience with this exact strategy:
"I add longer sessions when I have extra time and most of the year I train at zone 1 and 2 (my comment: low & moderate intensity) to build aerobic capacity. I add zone 3 (me: high intensity) and threshold sessions only when I approach key events and peaks which for me only come twice a year. With this approach I rarely see increases in FTP until build periods but my "endurance" at any intensity has slowly been increasing over time. This has also allowed me to avoid illness and injury and increase my training volume throughout the year, year over year."
(Shared with consent, thanks a bunch T.S.)
To sum up the take-aways for time-crunched cyclists:
⛔ Do NOT replace lack of hours with added intensity. It's rarely sustainable over time, you tend to crash and burn.
✅ Accept your "losses" and focus on maintenance. Practice sustainable endurance rides with regular small amounts of intensity work (just enough for maintenance)
🎢 A short build period off of a strong baseline of LIT consistency can give strong fitness for racing (and is more sustainable over time).
Hoping this advice can be of use to you. Thanks to everyone who responded to my questionnaire.
PS! Would you like a more personal approach for how YOU can beat stagnation and break through to a new level of performance?
If so, my TRIBE membership provides affordable training plans + you get access to me to discuss your options and approach. I'm telling you now because I'm currently adding some new features to the TRIBE membership. Therefore, the price will go up Sunday the weekend to come."
If anyone’s interest has been piqued by all this- Joe Friels Bible is still the best way to wrap your head around it I think.
The nature of forums means it’s easy for points to get lost and to embark on tangents about minutia.
So stepping back to way beyond what the OP was even asking a minute, it does all start with your objectives. Humour me here/ I’m practicing my knowledge as much as claiming it is definitive 🤣
What do you want to achieve?
For most people, that involves some variation of ‘get fitter’.
Everything above about 20s is an aerobic effort. You are powering your muscles by burning fuel to produce ATP.
That’s done in the mitochondria.
So how do we improve the function of our mitochondria?
By applying a load.
Load = stress which when you next recover = adaptation.
The body seeks to make you stronger to avoid the stress being stressful.
It adds a bit more on at the same time to make sure. That’s super-compensation.
Okay brill. So zwift races are stressful right?
Yes!
So the more of those I do, the stronger I’ll get right?
Yes! The TR/Zwift race/Sufferfest bump is real. You get better at using your type 2 muscle fibres (the strong but lazy ones) to pedal a bike.
Your cells love it too- all that sugar flying around is easy to burn so you feel great doing it!
So you do more and more.
And then the plateau comes…
Burning sugar produces lactate. Right now you are burning sugar and producing lactate. Not much but some.
At some point, you cannot deal with any more lactate being produced. You have maxed out the sugar burning potential of your type 2 fibres and the rest of the lactate is leaking into your type 1 muscle fibres and ending up in your blood.
So what now?
Well! Lactate is a fuel. Your relentless but weak type 1 fibres can actually mop up this spare lactate and use it to produce ATP!
Sounds great right?
Yes! It’s awesome. It’s why Pog can do 350w and still not trouble the Talk Test.
So how do I train these type 1 bad boys to eat more lactate?
Stress them.
How do I do that?
Ride at the highest possible intensity that your Type 1’s can handle without calling in the type 2 lads. They will get tired, your body will adapt and they will get stronger.
Ok brill- what’s the max intensity I can ride at and not get the bully boy type 2’s muscle in and flexing?
2mmol lactate.
(Above that, more 2’s get recruited and so you burn more sugar. More sugar= more lactate, so the type 1’s get swamped and stressed in a non-good way. Instead of the adaption signal being “build better mitochondria in the type 1’s!” it goes back to “throw more sugar at the type 2’s”. )
Cool- I don’t have a lactate meter with me at all times though?
Okay- so ride so you can talk but someone would know you were exercising, as GCN’s Si demonstrates with a lab test- it’s a great proxy.
Okay brill. I’ve done this for ages and now I can do my old ftp at under the talk test! And I was even able to anihilate a TT at a much lower HR than usual 😎
Yes that’s because your type 1’s were sucking in lactate and helping out for longer. Good isn’t it!
But I still get dropped when everyone smashes it on the hills 😞
Have you been training your type 2 fibres as well?
No- you said ride slow to go fast. I did and I did but now I still can’t go fast enough.
Ah yes- well you still need to train those fibres too.
How often?
20% of the time.
So like, 80/20 easy/hard?
Yes!
Thanks.
The end 🤣🤣🤣
Sorry- I can’t believe someone posted a longer post than mine whilst I was typing it 🤣🤣
It’s probably less reading to just read a book on it by now 🤣🤣
SO i can only enjoy 1/5 of my rides 🙁
😉
Reading your Zwift race reports- that’s more than you do at the minute 🤣🤣 😉
Sorry- I can’t believe someone posted a longer post than mine whilst I was typing it
Ctrl + V 😉
I'm actually now considering if the £59 for a Lactate meter might be worth it, out of curiosity if nothing else. Anyone want to chip in? (half serious actually, why not 😎)
D'oh