Frenchist.

If French people pretend to be Germans to get into the Olympic toilets, it might offend the Amish.

ARE TRANSEXUAL CYCLISTS GIVING OUR SWANS AIDS?

Can’t remember anyone having issue with me being in female changing rooms early on in my transition. That includes the pool in Morzine, which was a bit scary (for me) as it was full of kids.

Rachel

Not even transnationality toilet champions?

eat_the_pudding – Member

Am I allowed not to care?

Of course you’re allowed not to care. There’s any number of ways in which we’re allowed to be pricks.

Allowed isn’t the question. Caring about the affect our actions have on other people is just basic human decency, we shouldn’t need to be coerced into good manners.

Northwind – Member

eat_the_pudding – Member

Am I allowed not to care?

Of course you’re allowed not to care. There’s any number of ways in which we’re allowed to be pricks.
[/quote]

when you quote somthing you should really have it in context, I’ve got no idea what he doesn’t care about and why that makes him a prick?

poah – Member

when you quote somthing you should really have it in context, I’ve got no idea what he doesn’t care about and why that makes him a prick?

You could read the thread?

@northwind

eat_the_pudding – Member

Am I allowed not to care?

Of course you’re allowed not to care. There’s any number of ways in which we’re allowed to be pricks.

Allowed isn’t the question. Caring about the affect our actions have on other people is just basic human decency, we shouldn’t need to be coerced into good manners. [/quote]

Wow… overreaction much.

My attitude [if you bothered to read my previous comments] is that the perfect situation is one where the default position is that I don’t have to care about someones gender (nor they about mine).

Also that a gender neutral pronoun for everyone would be the simplest most consistent solution to the whole issue.

Care to explain how that makes me an uncaring prick? You disingenuous fartnozzle?

Play nicely, children.

But I don’t identify as a child. How dare you call me that?? 😉

Edit – okay, I do act like one…

Rachel

“We shouldn’t make sensible provision for trans people because the Muslims wouldn’t like it” manages to be insulting to both trans people and Muslims.

I know plenty of religiously conservative Muslims. Funnily enough, they have no problem whatsoever with working and socialising with gay people, Jews, Christians, or any other social group whom Muslims are “supposed” to hate. Most people, from any background, are decent and tolerant.

Whilst I am mostly being a dick – I also agree, I think the left can be guilty of the racism of low expections sometimes. I do think however, that instead of basing your opinion on the word of a couple of muslims – perhaps they and other minority or vulnerable groups (eg rape victims) should be asked what their opinions are in a slightly more robust manner, before we rush into pushing for unisex bathrooms and changing rooms up and down the country. In theory, I like the idea – as I’m a mildly left libertarian universalist that loathes the new fashion for identity politics whether it’s white identity politics or martian identity politics 🙂 and believe that a certain set of core values are good for the entire planet. In a perfect world, it would be nice to treat everyone on an individual basis. In a utilitarian reality, we need a system that is as inclusive of as many disenfranchised groups as possible – especially if one group feels so alienated that some of the groups subcultures have a mild correlation with things that go bang on trains.

instead of basing your opinion on the word of a couple of muslims

A couple of fictitious Muslims that never existed outside of tabloid headlines, you mean?

A couple of fictitious Muslims that never existed outside of tabloid headlines, you mean?

Say what you will Cougar, but personally – unless the bathrooms had cameras – as a student I wouldn’t have been caught dead having to walk into a bathroom at 3AM by myself for there to be a passed out female student in there – for obvious reasons. Without some serious thought put into the consequences of such a decision, I don’t support it.

This is the same forum where the overwhelming consensus seemed to be that women should be automatically assumed to be telling the truth in regards to rape charges.

eat_the_pudding – Member

My attitude [if you bothered to read my previous comments] is that the perfect situation is one where the default position is that I don’t have to care about someones gender (nor they about mine).

But that’s not the real situation so… We have to live in the real world and deal with real people. And that means that not caring would make you a prick.

Though maybe it’s not clear- I didn’t say you’re a prick. I said if you really don’t care about hurting people around you, you’re a prick. I very much doubt that’s you. (other people in the thread, well)

This is the same forum where the overwhelming consensus seemed to be that women should be automatically assumed to be telling the truth in regards to rape charges.

You think they should be automatically assumed to be lying?

bencooper – Member

You think they should be automatically assumed to be lying?

Yes, because that’s the only alternative.

****.

ETA: **** you swear filter; calling bencooper a **** was perfectly justified. 🙂

sbob – Member

bencooper – Member
You think they should be automatically assumed to be lying?

Yes, because that’s the only alternative.[/quote]

Well this has gone elsewhere, on that point making the presumption that the (alledged) victim is telling the truth means that a crime that is massivly under reported and often very difficult to report and that has been historically dismissed by police etc. may mean that more reporting is made, offenders are questioned and action taken. Like anything there may be cases where people make malicious accusations but unless there is compelling evidence that this is happening accusations should be taken serioulsy. A modern and sensible police force should be able to deal with these complaints in a way that both protects potential victims and gives the accused an option to present their version of events. Penalties may still apply for making false allegations.

Very reasonable post Mr Smith.
I stand by my prior though.
It was a shit tactic that Mr Cooper should have known better than to use.
I don’t suffer fools or arseholes at this time in the morning.

I’m not sure how many trans care assistants there are, but I’m sure it’s possible to not send trans care assistants to transphobic elderly people.

Knowing the care industry, I wouldn’t be inclined to agree. That said, my wife’s aunt works as an LGBT-specific care assistant (or for the agency that provides them) so they do exist. It’s not just the assistants you need to consider either, the LGBT patients themselves have needs and can come under abuse.

as a student I wouldn’t have been caught dead having to walk into a bathroom at 3AM by myself for there to be a passed out female student in there – for obvious reasons

I did, every damn night. You know what? Never once found a passed out female nor heard of anyone getting accused of anything.

It mentions a students union leaflet. Maybe things have changed… but… in my day…

At Oxford there is the Oxford Union where real debating is done and would-be politicians hang out […]

And lastly there is the NUS about whom no one, except a very few disorientated muppets who think they are somewhere else, gives a shit. So if someone says it is from a “student union leaflet”, I suspect it is from some twit from the NUS, stranded in Corbyntopia….

You seem to be stranded in an episode of Brideshead Revisited. Things have moved on, grandpa!

My Sister is at Oxford, over-thought, holier than thou PC-ness isn’t unusual for the Union

Ask her to explain to you the difference between the Oxford Union (home of pompous and unpleasant twits who will one day run the country) and OUSU (home of pompous but well-intentioned twits who won’t).

@northwind

But that’s not the real situation so… We have to live in the real world and deal with real people. And that means that not caring would make you a prick.

Though maybe it’s not clear- I didn’t say you’re a prick. I said if you really don’t care about hurting people around you, you’re a prick. I very much doubt that’s you. (other people in the thread, well)

I thought it was clear. I do care about how people are treated by others, but I genuinely don’t care what gender someone chooses.

That doesn’t make me a prick, that makes me an egalatarian.

When you say we have to deal with the “real situation”, I know that the situation I advocate (a single pronoun for everyone) doesn’t currently exist, but I think its a lot more achievable as an aim than special pronouns for everyone, which (as I’ve said) is virtue signalling nonsense.

Basically, I’m proposing equality, and you’ve jumped to the conclusion that I’m being discriminatory? Thats not as unusual as it should be, but its still silly.

Just to clarify, at university were these aingle use bathrooms or actual proper shared bathrooms? Im still not convinced, if the needs of society outweigh the needs of a very small minority such as the feelings of victimized women who are a large minority – then its not defendable as public policy. All public policy is a trade off. Also, how would you deal with the massively increased water usage from the large increase of loo fluahing? Keep the urinals and simply place a aign on them that says “urinal” so that men can effectively have two bathrooms? Water over use is a huge issue.

Where in any of this did we get onto use of bathrooms? It’s really a non issue.

Rachel

Isnt the whole thing a non-issue Rachel?

The press release from Oxford cleared it all up, surely?

Oxford Union is an outstanding debating forum drawing high profile and powerful figures from around the world. Their youtube channel is well worth watching if you have the time.

The Student Union is very different indeed, lefty political wannabes. This “Ze” nonsesne sums them up.

I am certain there are things which are important to the transgender community which we could do to make their lives better and increase acceptance. I just don’t think new made up words are the way forward, that’s just an excerise in making the Student Union feel like they are doing something.

teamhurtmore

The press release from Oxford cleared it all up, surely?

Not really. The original story was that students had been told to use ‘Ze’ pronouns. The press release denies that any such instruction was given, but confirms that they believe the use of “neopronouns” is the right thing to do. Unless the person in question wishes to be identified as “he” or “she”. Because if you refered to a she who used to be a he as ze, that would be misgendering them.

we would like to highlight that our support for trans students includes respecting neopronouns and non-binary identities

we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals

We also recommend that at events like campaign meetings, workshops and training sessions, people introduce themselves with their pronouns.

emphasises that gender cannot be assumed

Requesting that people state their pronouns, and do not assume the pronouns of others, is not particularly radical or controversial. It’s a standard practice, not just in Oxford but in student communities and LGBTQ-friendly spaces all over, and we encourage its spread.

In this situation, and in light of the factual inaccuracies published, we would like to highlight that our support for trans students includes respecting neopronouns and non-binary identities. We would also like to clearly state that we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals (ie, some trans students) who may already be struggling to get people to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ for them. It would be totally counterproductive.

Case closed

We also recommend that at events like campaign meetings, workshops and training sessions, people introduce themselves with their pronouns.

Screw that! I can barely remember folks names, never mind what special snowflake identifier they want to tag themselves with. One for all and all for one!

teamhurtmore

Case closed

Not really.

we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals (ie, some trans students)

that’s just an excerise in making the Student Union feel like they are doing something.

Do you have your browser set to write-only?

This.

Story.

Never.

Actually.

Happened.

FFS.

As it happens, scotroutes, I’m in agreement with you on that one.

Our local Young Greens group have a bit of a thing for this. I’m the only person (that I know, who attends meetings) in the local party who uses a different gender pronoun that the one assumed at birth. Even so, I was roundly lectured by the Young Greens organiser for saying that having everyone introduce themselves with their name and preferred pronoun was just a bit ridiculous.

It’s really easy – use what you think is right, until you are corrected. Then use what you are told. It’s just good manners. If you are really unsure to begin with, quietly ask.

Rachel

Oxford Union is an outstanding debating forum drawing high profile and powerful figures from around the world.

It does. It also attracts a lot of w@nkers.

Do you have your browser set to write-only?

🙂 <notes down for future use>

Our local Young Greens group have a bit of a thing for this.

The Greens (and I say this as a party member) do like to tie themselves in knots over such things. In Scotland they have a male and a female co-convenor. Then it was decided that that was biased against people who do not identify as male or female, so it was changed to male and non-male, immediately offending lots of women.

Not sure what they’ve decided to go with now.

eat_the_pudding – Member

I thought it was clear. I do care about how people are treated by others, but I genuinely don’t care what gender someone chooses.

Your “Am I allowed not to care” line was a response to me saying that we should use the term the individual would like us to use. So no, not clear at all, it looked and still looks like you were saying you don’t care what people prefer to be called.

Do you Cougar have your browser set to read only

https://ousu.org/news/article/6013/OUSU-Statement-The-Use-Of-Gender-Neutral-Pronouns/

Cougar did you actually read that link from earlier in the thread ? I did 🙂

It says quite clearly that OUSU have various working and guidance documents (of usage of such non-words) and that speakers at meetings can ask to be referred to using a specific pronoun.

As I said I am supportive of action in Transgender rights but these made up words are not it.

I was roundly lectured by the Young Greens organiser for saying that having everyone introduce themselves with their name and preferred pronoun was just a bit ridiculous.

Agreed, daft for everyone to do it but if someone has a specifc request / desire then that should be respected

scotroutes – Member
Screw that! I can barely remember folks names…

I have a similar problem. Relying on goodwill and good manners seems to work out, and where it doesn’t who wants to know that person anyway? 🙂

Racheal – did they really lecture you on that? *shakes head in disbelief*

As you say I would try to take my lead from those affected.

As an aside I like the use of “bod”* as a gender neutral suffix as in “chairbod” “firebod” falls down on “ombudsbod” tho

When people ask me what I do and I reply ” I’m a nurse” I still sometimes get ” Oh a male nurse” to which I answer – ” last time I looked”

* not an entirely serious suggestion