But it's going to be light for a good 3 hours yet.

"Lifer and Ernie – I suggest you go away and read up on the San Remo manual, which more than adequately describes the legality and rules of blockade!"

You get a genuine LOL for that, since the Manual only applies to "Armed Conflicts At Sea", there is no declared armed conflift here. But even if there was a state of war, it still wouldn't apply, it specifically exempts

"vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;"

"Lifer and Ernie – I suggest you go away and read up on the San Remo manual, which more than adequately describes the legality and rules of blockade!"

Why don't you point to the sections that you think apply to this?

We (Mrs JulianA and I) were in the Netherlands (Stadskanaal to be precise) on their Remembrance Day and we had the misfortune to hear the Israeli ambassador to the Netherlands give a speech at the Jewish Memorial. In English.

It went somthing along the lines of 'Anti-semites are threatening our country, Ahmedinajad is a threat to us and the whole world hates us' It was a polemic against anti-semitism at a memorial service for the Jews of Stadskanaal who were transported first to Camp Westerbork (which we visited) and some later to extermination camps in the east and was totally inappropriate to the occasion. His speech confirmed our negative opinions of the Israelis.

Mr Ambassador, you did harm and no good to your cause with your speech: you confirmed our opinions of you.

We have been to synagogues in Bourtange and Chania, and have sent messages of support to the synagogue in Chania following the tragic arson attack there, and have found them to be beautiful and peaceful and we have nothing but sympathy for those who lost their lives to the unspeakable Nazi purge, but we cannot find sympathy with the extremists who appear to inhabit Israel.

William Dalrymple's fantastic book 'From The Holy Mountain' opened my eyes to the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis (akin to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis) and Robert Fisk's book 'The Great War For Civilisation – The Conquest Of The Middle East' confirmed my opinions.

it specifically exempts

"vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;"

Oh, Northwind – if only you'd bothered reading the next paragraph…

137. Vessels listed in paragraph 136 are exempt from capture only if they:

(a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
(b) do not commit acts harmful to the enemy;
(c) immediately submit to identification and inspection when required; and
(d) do not intentionally hamper the movement of combatants and obey orders to stop or move out of the way when required.

Lifer:

98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.

99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.

So did you not read my first paragraph?

The israelis had already stated not that the ships were to be inspected, but that they wouldn't be allowed to reach their destination. If you can't see the difference there there's really little point in trying to have a conversation. There was no intention to inspect them, only to stop them.

A lot of people are trying to use the same argument you are but it doesn't come close to applying- they had no intention of allowing the ships to complete their voyage, and they were completely open about that. Even if you (as you no doubt do) disregard the fact that Israel's policy is openly to block the import of legitimate aid supplies, you can't disregard this.

I have no sympathy for either side, all as bad as each other, We (british) as a mongrol nation have no high horse to get on either.

Northwind – see paragraph 103 which I added above – the diversion to an alternative port before shipping the humanitarian supplies on for distribution was entirely legal, since the Israelis are allowed to set out the conditions for search and passage of the goods involved, as long as they get to the destination.

there is no declared armed conflict here

I'm afraid the formal declaration of war is a long gone historical concept (war was never formally declared in the Falklands for example) – the San Remo manual itself accepts this in the statement that The parties to an armed conflict at sea are bound by the principles and rules of international humanitarian law from the moment armed force is used. – it makes no mention of "declaration"

The parties to an armed conflict at sea are bound by the principles and rules of international humanitarian law from the moment armed force is used

Even when only one side is armed?

Even when only one side is armed?

read it again: Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured

The stated intention of the "humanitarian flotilla" was to breach the blockade – it was perfectly lawful to subject them to search and inspection of their cargo.

5 ships of the 6 ships involved accepted without problem! I don't see anyone calling that illegal – however on one ship people launched a violent sustained attack on the naval team sent on board – who acted in self defence. All pretty simple really!

Breaching, not intending to breach. Simple really!

International waters Zulu-Eleven.

If Turkey went to war with Israel, I wonder if it was non-Nuclear, just how badly would Israel lose?

Israel would lose badly unless they used tactical nuclear strikes. Israel better be careful. America can't influence everyone all of the time.

International waters Zulu-Eleven

Jesus, just read the rules!

118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture.

outside neutral waters – ie, in international waters!

Israels explanation:

1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.

2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.

3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states.

4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.

5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.

6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.

7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.

8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.

10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel's intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.

11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.

12. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the protesters and acted in self defense to fend off such attacks.

So, according to people on here – the Israelis are guilty of Piracy, murder and terrorism – but so far no-one seems to have actually demonstrated a single fact which supports their allegation that a naval blockade is illegal!

As an Israeli living in Israel I wish to add a few comments before getting flamed ragged by members of the forum.

There seems to be a tendancy to refer to "Israelis" in this thread as some sort of homogenous racist extremist group without any concern for international opinion against their coutry's actions towards the Palestinian people. I wish to state that not all Israelis necesarily agree with all of their government's actions any more than citizens of any other country support every action of their respective governments. Are the "British" universally responsible for the Blair government's decision to join in the invasion of Iraq?

Personally I am deeply concerned about Israel's image in the eyes of the world and it's difficult to see how this latest incident will improve matters.

So far the Israeli media has concentrated on pictures of Israeli marines fast-roping onto the deck of the ship and getting the shit kicked out of them. Two soldiers have suffered gunshot wounds possibly from side-arms taken by force from members of the unit, others have stab wounds. Apparently they opened fire as a result of the threat to their own lives. Al-Jazeera is concentrating more on Israeli aggression. I think it is too soon to interpret exactly what unfolded, we haven't heard much from the side of ship's passengers yet, no details have been released about the identities and backgrounds of those killed. There were five other vessels involved which have presumably been towed to the port of Ashdod without harm to life?

Unfortunately such incidents are inevitable so long as a political solution (i.e., the creation of an independent Palestinian State)is not found. This is a symptom of our occupation of the Palestinian territories. The present Israeli government seems intent on alienating world opinion against us, including our closest ally the USA, failing to realise that it doesn't look good when you wield a spectacular array of modern weaponry against a weak and poverty stricken civilian population, even in spite of terrorism against Israelis. Both sides need to realise the fact that the other isn't going to go away, stop scoring points about who did what to who, and get on with the act of just living without killing each other. This will involve compromise which I don't see us making, and so it goes on to the detriment of the whole region and possibly myself and my kids who will eventually be called up to serve in the army.

In direct response to the subject of this thread, would nuking Israel help the Middle East? – This is plainly idiotic, as this would obviously involve nuking the Palestinians, and the neighboring Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Egyptians, and in all likelyhood cause world war III.

Anyway, I'm just going to go polish my horns and comb my tail. Tomorrow I'll probably go for a ride and clean my head of all this bad Karma for a couple of hours.

Paul Friedman

Complain about the Middle East and Israel on the forum… 🙄

Yet everyone is arguing on here? good thing you lot don't have weapons.
Britain is not innocent-we need to sort out things here before moaning about others.

If the forum can't be civilised, how the **** do you think 2 countries will???

Give Peace a Chance. 😕

(Well said Paul)

What Israel did was indefensible but it is also naive to suggest that their paranoia isn't at least partially justified. Statements like,

'Anti-semites are threatening our country,

are, essentially, true. Look at the flow of ex-Nazis (for instance Gehlen, Skorzeny, and Schacht) into the security forces of the Arab nations following WWII; these were stopping off points in the ODESSA network. (And let's not start on the Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini, Yasser Arafat's uncle, who thought Eichmann was too easy on Jews). The tentacles spread quite far into the region.

And then there's the continuing popularity of TV shows, school lessons and so on about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion – which, was, of course, a bad forgery which 'proved' a Jewish global conspiracy. Hitler referred to it in Mein Kampf and Hamas refer to it in the 'Covenant' (Article 32, fact fans).

It is almost impossible to seperate anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism in the middle east; it is, at best, a very tangled web.

So, yeah, Israel is acting like a paranoid psycho but then, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean They're not out to get you….

JulianA – Member

we have nothing but sympathy for those who lost their lives to the unspeakable Nazi purge, but we cannot find sympathy with the extremists who appear to inhabit Israel.

It should never be forgotten that some of the vociferous critics of Israel and it's treatment of the Palestinian people, are Jewish – many in fact survivors of the Holocaust.

Indeed 85-year-old Hedy Epstein who is Holocaust survivor, lost both her mother and father, and all her family bar two, at the Auschwitz Nazi death camp, and is an outspoken supporter of the Palestinian people, was due to be on board one of the ships on the aid flotilla.

Thankfully, the Free Gaza Movement's office in Cyprus claims she changed her plans at the last minute and was not on board any vessel.

Elderly Holocaust survivor did not join Gaza flotilla, is safe in Cyprus

"since the Israelis are allowed to set out the conditions for search and passage of the goods involved, as long as they get to the destination."

Which they would not <bangs head> Sorry for not making that clearer but I thought it too obvious to need to be stated. A large part of the cargo is material which Israel would not allow to be delivered to Gaza, despite it being neccesary aid by any reasonable standards. Cement, concrete, to name the 2 most important ones- but Israel's policy has consistently been to block other aid, as we've covered further up the page at least twice. mattresses, shoes, lightbulbs, clothes, even food, all have been seized in the past on occasion.

You can't with any credibility claim that the aid organisations could depend on Israel handling the cargo with any integrity, or on the materials actually getting to where they're needed. There's no prospect of Israel getting the benefit of the doubt here.

It should never be forgotten that some of the vociferous critics of Israel and it's treatment of the Palestinian people, are Jewish – many in fact survivors of the Holocaust.

That's why I made a distinction between Jews and Israelis.

Paul Freidman's post is most encouraging – fair play and good luck to you. Sorry your government sends out such bad vibes. Totally agree on the Tony Blair / Iraq comment! We weren't in favour of the war either, but Bliar didn'r listen…

LOL @ Israel still using ancient technique to board the ship.

Boarding technique needs reviewing as they are shite … LOL! Not even near to Steven Segal Hollywood style landing. Israel you need to learn from Hollywood as that sort of landing is embarrassing. At least the "commando" should go in all gun blazing with rubber bullet if they considered those people as not hostile, I mean all rubber bullet blazing from helicopter. More explosive etc. Poor show.

I mean c'mon even the Somali pirates can do better than that without being beaten up and still enjoy their fruit of the labour by demanding heavy ransom.

They should learn from North Korea in defending territorial water after all there is something call submarine with torpedos …

WTF are those "humanitarian flotilla" doing? Start a war? Bet that is the objective.

Why don't they help the Burmese, the Tibetans or even the starving North Korean?

😈

wtf?!

i go away for a nice weekend's biking with my friends, and i come back to this?

the way israel is behaving is starting to make iran and ahmadinejad look reasonable.

Chewie: it seems that most of the dead* civilians were from Turkey, which is a predominantly Muslim country, and i can understand the connection that they may have felt with Palestine, and turkey isn't far from Palestine by sea.

(* trying hard not to use the emotive word: murdered)

"The first victims of the Nazis were the Jews; The second victims of the Nazis were the Palestinians"

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes … use the torpedos fools!

ahwiles: "Chewie: it seems that most of the dead* civilians were from Turkey, which is a predominantly Muslim country, and i can understand the connection that they may have felt with Palestine."

(* trying hard not to use the emotive word: murdered)

eerrmmm … what's that got to do with torpedos? You know torpedos do not discriminate if use and everyone is treated fairly.
——————————-
FFS! So the Israeli should welcome all with open arms?

In a similar sort of situation do you think North Korean should welcome everyone with open arms? Who are going to make them? Also why not tell China to hand off Tibet? Who are going to tell them? Burma? Who are going to tell them?

Yes, I guess so … bloody racial discrimination. Racists!

Is it because they are all from the far east so nobody cares?

😈

There were at least 3 UK nationals on the boat that was attacked.

Obi_Twa:"There were at least 3 UK nationals on the boat that was attacked."

Everyone is treated equally! It's equal opportunity. No racial discrimination.

😈

have to say, I think mr Tim Minchin has the right idea…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T4Wk9M2ObE

Only two solutions peace love and tolerance in the hearts of the people who live there BOTH sides.
There respective God decides which one got the lAnd and smite the other into the sea with rightous fury.
I am not holding my breath for either anytime soon.

That's why I made a distinction between Jews and Israelis.

Not enough imo. Not all Israelis are Zionists – Orthodox Jews being the obvious example.

The distinction should be between Jews and Zionists.

The German Nazi party exterminated 2.8 million Jews. Just incase anyone has forgotten, Stalin exterminated an estimated 26million people (yes, 3m vs 26m). And, I think some figure much greater was estimated before and during the cultural revolution in China. What Nazi Germans carried out was terrible, of course, but the largest scale, mass exterminations have all but been forgotten. Why?

And does anyone know how many of those 26 million were Russian Orthodox Christians? And do we have a rememberance/Holocaust day for them?

Food for thought, people?

Where do you get your figures from B.A.Nana ………David Irving the renowned neo-Nazi historian ? Whilst the figures for Stalin's Purges and the Cultural Revolution are somewhat contentious and open to some debate, practically no one disputes the figure of 6 million for Jews exterminated by the Nazis.

But what is your point anyway ? ………..it seems to have gone right over my head. Are you saying that the Israelis didn't kill enough people yesterday ?

Everybody's stopped now i'm back

William Shirer

Sorry, I was just trying to send another Ostrich spinning out of the burning car.

It may not be directly relevent to the OP, but I'm just asking why we know or care little about these mass exterminations done on a gargantuan scale around WW2 and yet, we are only ever reminded relentlessly about the jewish Holocaust, terrible as it was.

It's a question I've always pondered on since a teenager.

The distinction should be between Jews and Zionists.

I stand corrected.

Nice choice Ernie, now what was i saying about the pan-Arab Nazi legacy? And where did I last see the zionist-octopus? Somewhere in central Europe? 1930s was it?

The Israelis acted terribly but their old enemies are seldom far away…

Ernie – seriously not cool.

Some facts for the undecided. Might help you make up your mind on how fair the situation is.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

A little taster:

Gaza War 2008 – 2009

Palestinian total deaths: 1385 (762 civilians including 107 women and 318 children)
Israeli total deaths: 13 (3 civilians)

I used to have a great deal of sympathy for the Jews,based on the treatment of their religion since the middle ages.Even the likes of Martin Luther (German not American)suggested burning down their houses.However how can the children of Holocaust survivors (the originals are getting thin on the ground)justify the treatment of people in their sphere of influence?
Cram many more people into an area than it was designed for..check.
Give them 25% of the basics necessary to survive…check.
Convince your own people they are the bogeyman…check.
Humiliate and persecute any who try to move between the areas…check.
Warsaw…Gaza…No difference.Must look really familiar to any European Jew in their 70's.

And you could add the economic blockade which includes any form of cancer medicine…
I make no difference or allowances over Israel or the carpetbaggers who populate it to Paul F above,what did you do during your national service?…If you live there and condone your government,you are complicit.It was Israel who radicalised the Palestinians enough to vote for Hamas? Still,They bang on about the right they have to protect the land they have stolen,and refuse to accept the problems they have created.
Our foreign policy in the ME has been a disaster since the times of the Empire.Israel are starting to make us make us look benign.

duckman they are referred to as 'Hawks' in their government.

I can think of many other terms to describe them but 'Hawks' is definitely not one of them.