you see what's happening here on this discussion, we ourselves are having the same issue in so much as we're not willing to concede that were as wrong as each other and will get nowhere until we agree or a bigger stick comes along to make us see sense, everything i have said has been taken and used against me and everything you have said has been used against you, this situation has gone on for so long now that no-one side is either right or wrong anymore they just keep on killing each other thinking that one day the other will give in! i won't convince you that you're wrong anymore than you'll convince me that i'm wrong and so the misery continues.

Cheers lifer – as I said, no allegation that its illegal, just a belief that it should be lifted.

UN resolution does not call the blockade illegal either, just that the UN thinks humanitarian aid should be permitted unimpeded

1. The Security Council stresses the urgency of and calls for an immediate, durable and fully respected ceasefire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.

2. The Security Council calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment.

3. The Security Council welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid.

4. The Security Council calls on member states to support international efforts to alleviate the humanitarian and economic situation in Gaza, including through urgently needed additional contributions to UNWRA and through the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee.

crikey you're right suggestions on probable solutions would be far more constructive, my suggestions would be constant mediation between both sides and some goodwill gestures from both sides! would anyone care to suggest any goodwill gestures?.

you point me to a UN resolution that says the blockade is illegal!

You are not aware that the UN has passed resolutions demanding Israel withdraws from occupied territories
ratty ? !!!

The UN does not recognise that Israel has withdrawn from Gaza precisely because it maintains the land, sea, and air blockade. The blockade is illegal.

Furthermore, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has declared the blockade illegal as it amounts to collective punishment of civilians. Which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation.

They rely on the actions of each other to maintain power. The blockade is perfect propaganda for Hamas to garner support, and the actions of Hamas are perfect propaganda for the continuation of the blockade.

United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has declared the blockade illegal

Thats his personal opinion – not the official opinion of the united nations which is expressed only in forms of a resolution, resolutions so far call for a ceasefire as a prerequisite for the withdrawal – the last ceasefire was broken by Hamas!

Ban Ki-moon recently called the blockade "not sustainable" and "counter-productive" – he clearly doesn't think its illegal else he would have said so.

as I said, show me a resolution that states the blockade is illegal, without that you've got nothing but an opinion.

The blockade is perfect propaganda for Hamas to garner support

The blockade was imposed in punishment for Hamas winning the elections in Gaza.
In other words, "this is what you get when we don't like the election results".

So it would appear that Hamas doesn't need the blockade to win support.

mmb – Member

"he took the bottom of the garden to push the trouble maker out of range!"

No he didn't. This is what's right at the bottom of it, and it's the one part that might be worth convincing you of. The whole moral equivelancy/neccesary protection etc arguments, you're right that those are too dyed in the wool but when you take it right back to the start, the first rock wasn't cast by palestinians. Violence begets violence and you get into the whole horrible cycle but there was a first step, and that shouldn't be forgotten.

show me a resolution that states the blockade is illegal

You really are stupid aren't you ?

The UN considers Gaza to be still be under Israeli occupation because of the blockade. The occupation is illegal. There is no need for further resolutions. Just for Israel to comply.

Thats his personal opinion

Funnily enough ratty, I am more interested in the opinion of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, on whether Israel is in violation of the Geneva Convention over the blockade – not yours.

He says that it is, and that's good enough for me.

who cares what a lone UN employee says? Its irrelevant.

There is ONE body at the UN that can make this determination, and they haven't – which speaks volumes!

Anyway, Israel isn't even a signatory of the 1977 addendum to article 4 of Geneva, so cannot be in breach of them!

There is ONE body at the UN that can make this determination, and they haven't – which speaks volumes!

What? the security council? the one body that has consistently seen the US veto any sanction of Israel.

We all know that Israel is turning into something too awful to behold.

It is an illegal occupation and lets face it we (us & the yanks) shouldn't have put the "isrealis" there in the first place . I'm inclined to say bomb 'em

FWIW, 124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

lets face it we (us & the yanks) shouldn't have put the "isrealis" there in the first place

You're aware that hundreds of British troops died preventing them "being put there in the first place" ?

hora yes i agree they are but with reason, northwind, you may be right but without gestures nothing changes and so it goes on.

There is ONE body at the UN that can make this determination, and they haven't

Yes they have. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 calls on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories. The continued blockade of Gaza means that Israel is still in breach as it has not withdrawn from the territories.

Also, from an Amnesty International report :

1.2.4 Collective punishment

The prolonged blockade of Gaza, which had already been in place for some 18 months before the current fighting began, amounts to collective punishment of its entire population.

The Fourth Geneva Convention specifically prohibits collective punishment. Its Article 33 provides: “No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.”

As explained in the authoritative commentary of the ICRC: “This paragraph then lays a prohibition on collective penalties… penalties of any kind inflicted on persons or entire groups of persons, in defiance of the most elementary principles of humanity, for acts that these persons have not committed.”4

The blockade is illegal on at least two counts. Firstly it me determines that Gaza is still under illegal Israeli occupation. And secondly, it is in breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

No I wasn't aware of that, but I just hate the way the isrealis seem to act more like the nazi's every sodding year & the tactics they use to make themselves virtually untouchable from the US & UK like helping finance political leadership campains further helps me not like them.

This whole thing is a nightmare, Isreal can do whatever they want due to the support they have from the USA. I actually understand why Iran are going Nuclear and dont give a damn what anyone says especially when you have rouge states like Isreal being nuclear.

I dont really care what happens in the middle east anymore as everything is so corrupt, we should just leave them all to decide. The EU & USA should stop supporting Isreal and let them go it alone I am sure the situation would not be as bad as it is now.

Yes they have. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 calls on Israel to withdraw from occupied territories. The continued blockade of Gaza means that Israel is still in breach as it has not withdrawn from the territories.

No, 242

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
i)Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
ii)Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

So, it says that part of the process of peace is a withdrawal, as is the right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force – since that has not been achieved by negotiation the withdrawal cannot take place, in other words, it takes two to tango – until other states accept the right of Israel to exist in peace, the resolution is unfulfilled!

Regards "collective punishment" – thats simply countered by commenting that there is no collective punishment, food and humanitarian aid supplies are being allowed through, however things useful for hostile enemy forces are prohibited, entirely within the law.

Gaza supermarket with Cherie Blairs Sister:

Oh well, that picture seals it then, nothing wrong at all is there|

ooh, look at the peaceful humanitarian protesters:

🙄

Zulu-Eleven, are you Melanie Phillips?

if i was attacked in international waters why not kick off,anyway zulu are you in charge of Isreali propaganda or something ?

Nope, simply don't agree with the leftie bandwagoning that jumps up and down calling anything "illegal" or "piracy" or "murder" because they don't agree with it!

Call it wrong, call it inhumane, call it whatever – but don't make wild claims of illegality just because you don't like it.

The sooner people can accept that both sides have committed brutal, murderous acts, and that both sides need to stop the killing and come to peace then there might be an end to this – but simply castigating the Israelis and denying the existence of a violent, manipulative and media savvy enemy is naive and ridiculous

Zulu-Eleven – Member

"Regards "collective punishment" – thats simply countered by commenting that there is no collective punishment, food and humanitarian aid supplies are being allowed through"

Are you completely mad? Just curious likes.

Israel allows only 15000 tons of aid through to Gaza per week, which is around 1/4 of what the UN says is the minimum required. A complete block on concrete, cement and plumbing pipes is in force, because they can be "dual use"- though they're yet to explain how a 2 foot sewer pipe can be used as a weapon, unless they make a supergun. Other things seized over the years have included light bulbs, mattresses, shoes, clothes, chocolate and pasta, all highly dangerous in the wrong hands of course.

Now, ask yourself, if this convoy really was smuggling arms, why is it that no independant inspection is going to be allowed?

Lets look at the reality of it – nothing to do with humaitarian aid and everything to do with a publicity stunt for the terrorist Hamas government – Israel invited the ships to enter the one open port to unload their "humaitarian aid" , 5 out of 6 ships obeyed the 6th didn't whose rather large "crew" (100s to crew one cargo ship ???)then promptly attacked the boarding Israeli soldiers. The one mistake Istael made was playing into the hands of a deliberate set up by terrorists who put a low price on human life if it means getting their story into the headlines.

Would Nuking Israel Solve the Problems in the Middle East

Racist.

Would Nuking Israel the middle east Solve the Problems in the Middle East

Yes.

ooh, look at the peaceful humanitarian protesters:

What was the phrase earlier about bears etc?

)then promptly attacked the boarding Israeli soldiers.

Why were they boarding in the first place? A reporter has also stated that the Israelis fired on the ship before boarding.

since that has not been achieved by negotiation the withdrawal cannot take place

United Nations General Assembly resolution 37/123 calls on :

" the unconditional and total withdrawal of Israel from all the Palestinian and other occupied Arab territories"

Do you understand what "unconditional" means ratty ?

.

Gaza supermarket with Cherie Blairs Sister

So the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights is lying. The UN Human Rights Council is lying. Amnesty International is lying. And a multitude of other humanitarian organisations are all liars – there is no humanitarian crises in Gaza.

But you on the other hand ratty, are telling the truth.

Funny that.

.

Zulu-Eleven, are you Melanie Phillips?

I'm not entirely convinced that Melanie Phillips is quite as right wing as ratty.

Why were they boarding in the first place

To check for contraband items such as weapons and/or explosives in accordance with the (entirely legal) blockade perhaps?

A reporter has also stated that the Israelis fired on the ship before boarding.

Then why land on the ship with paintball guns?

To check for contraband items such as weapons and/or explosives in accordance with the (entirely legal) blockade perhaps?

So why did they do it at night time then ? Is that what the Royal Navy does ?

And why did they cover their faces – if what they were doing was lawful ? Is that what the Royal Navy does ?

The whole incident was a terrorist act.

The whole incident was a terrorist act.

Hahahahahahahaha!

Now you're making a parody of yourself Ernie

Wouldn't it be easier to sink the boat with a torpedo than land on it with paintball guns?

How come there were no problems or violence on the other five ships that were boarded? answer me that!

To check for contraband items such as weapons and/or explosives in accordance with the (entirely legal) blockade perhaps?

Outside the exclusion zone?

Yes mate – state sponsored terrorism. If it had been carried out by Iran or North Korea, that's how the US government would be describing it. And the country responsible would have been classed as a terrorist state.

Why for example, is Dame Shirley Porter heiress to Tesco, living on land taken from the Palestinians – was she being persecuted in her home country ffs ?

Well, I saw a program a few years back of a Jewish family leaving Britain to live in Israel. When asked why, they said they felt threatened in the UK and they would rather be in a country with "their" people. Threatened? They now live in a country almost surrounded by hostile nations!

They rely on the actions of each other to maintain power.

In the case of Israel any of their actions past,present or future, support the ultimate goal of achieving a Zionist state.

The key is the US.

Ernie, I don't know why you are still arguing with Ratty, just treat his posts for what they are; comedy value.

Lifer and Ernie – I suggest you go away and read up on the San Remo manual, which more than adequately describes the legality and rules of blockade!

So – can anyone summarise the 120 posts above? And perhaps also give us a bit of an insight into the legal position of Israel and the UN etc.

Yes.
It's just past 8 in the evening,the lupine's charged and I'm going for a ride with me mates. See ya chaps.