geetee1972

Funny because I was only talking to Julian at Condor yesterday and mentioned this thread to him.

Excellent, tell him I’m just down the road and I’ll pop in to pick up my Super Acciaio at lunchtime. 🙂

When you are there take look to see if they have that lovely Pista in with the wooden rims.. Paris it was named, sat downstairs at the back where they do the measurements for you..

Enjoy Condor, great group of Lads.

bb, I may well now swing by just for a look at that!

Teetosugars – Member
If you we’re going custom, would you have it built to take discs?
I’m toying with a new steel frame for my 40th, and wondering about discs..

i would, and then i’d get some really nice wheels, happy to know they’d last nearly as long as the frame.

(with rim brakes, you’re only going to kill them in a few years, it’s harder to justify something nice)

A development of Range prestige- anymore info?

Tom Ritchey took the original Tange Prestige tubeset and basically butted the living daylights out of it. I think he did things like shorten the buts and make some of the sections even thinner where he felt they didn’t need so much material. I’m not sure but he might have also commissioned a heat treatment process to increase the UTS. But this was all way back in the day, around 1989 as I remember and these days, they won’t be doing any of that themselves because the tubing manufacturers have all developed their materials to such a high level that the demand is already satisfied.

Tange’s top tubeset now, having had a quick look at their website, is called Tange Ultimate but that’s been around afew years now, I think it even predates the development of stainless steels (for use in frame construction I mean).

Plain old tange/4130 otherwise why keep it secret? No one else does. Elude to a blend then you can still charge more for pig iron. I’d love to be corrected as that’s holding me back from that stealthy looking beaut too.

If the feel and ride are good and the weight is competitive, does it really matter what it’s made of?

You do seem to be slightly obsessed with “value”. It might be a god awful ride and the wrong bike but look it’s the cheapest model made from some fancy tubeset and has shiny things hanging off it 😕

does it really matter what it’s made of?

There are pros and cons to this. On the one hand, I think you’re absolutely right; on the other, it’s good to be informed about what you’re buying so that you can be sure you’re not overpaying for something vanilla when you think it’s chocolate.

BTW way Hora, Julian Cunnington at Condor now knows who you are, that you’re coming in tomorrow and is going to take the very best care of you. 😀 He’s a super guy, knows a lot about bike fit and the importance of being comfy. He is a racer head but he won’t push that on you if you tell him it’s not where you’re at.

It’s interesting how much more aware we are of the alloying composition of steel these days. I wouldn’t say we represent sophisticated buyers, but we are definitely very aware buyers.

Other than the metallurgists amongst us, I think all the ‘awareness’ we have is a ‘fella down the pub’ level of recieved wisdom from reading forums like this, which genrally comes from the journalistic and marketing spin that are put on all the various tubesets.

What that makes us as buyers is gullible (because we’ll believe what we’re told by the LBS) or a pain the arse (because we think we know better than the LBS), depending on your take on it.

hora, you could do a lot worse than one of these 😉

BTW way Hora, Julian Cunnington at Condor now knows who you are, that you’re coming in tomorrow and is going to take the very best care of you. He’s a super guy, knows a lot about bike fit and the importance of being comfy. He is a racer head but he won’t push that on you if you tell him it’s not where you’re at.

You mean you’be pre-warned him 😀

It’s a good point, which is what I meant by it not necessarily making us ‘sophisticated’ buyers, just more aware.

I certainly wouldn’t agree though that the differences are all merely ‘spin’. Tubesets do differ materially and those material differences do mean that you can get more performance.

953/XCR does have a much higher UTS than 853/Spirit and as a result of that, you can build a frame ligther. That’s clearly demonstrated in the market place – Condor make the Acciaio Stainless which weighs 1.6kg and the regular Acciaio at 1.8kg for example.

Where I do think the marketing spin comes in is in how much benefit that 200g weight saving will make, not least when the cost of the frame is more than doubled as a result!

You mean you’be pre-warned him

Just wanted to maximise the chances of a win win outcome for you both. Julian is a great guy and he’s taken good care of me with the three bikes I’ve had from him. And for all the flak you get about chosing and buying bikes that are too big/small/square/round etc, I know you’re a good person who deserves to be riding a bike he really likes.

Peace and love man. Peace and love. 🙂

Where I do think the marketing spin comes in is in how much benefit that 200g weight saving will make, not least when the cost of the frame is more than doubled as a result!

And just because it’s made of fancier tubing and is 200g lighter, doesn’t mean you’ll prefer the ride.

Can we send someone along to video the session at Condor? 🙂

Tubesets do differ materially and those material differences do mean that you can get more performance

But it’s usually the marketers who inform the journalists who inform the buyers/forum dwellers as to what that the ‘performance’ increase is, and why they need it. Most of the buyers wouldn’t notice the difference from one frame of the same ‘level’ to another (but they’ll tell themselves they can, because they’re ‘informed’ buyers and it was an expensive purchase).

It’s not as bad as hi-fi though 😉

And just because it’s made of fancier tubing and is 200g lighter, doesn’t mean you’ll prefer the ride.

Actually, ironically you’re more likely to dislike it. Most reports suggest that frames made from stainless tubesets tend to ride more harshly than those from lesser tube sets. I couldn’t verify that myself as I haven’t ridden one, but it is something that is consistently reported even by the fabricators – I notice that Enigma seem to have stopped offerin the Extensor, at least it’s not listed on their website.

I am likely to tread into the ‘man down the pub’ mode that INH was highlighting, but as it has been explained to me, this is the result of using much thinner tubes, in order to reduce weight which follows from having a much higher UTS material, but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness and so consequently the frame tends to transmit more vibration energy form the road to the rider.

Or something like that. It seems to make sense.

in order to reduce weight which follows from having a much higher UTS material, but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness and so consequently the frame tends to transmit more vibration energy form the road to the rider.

<man down the pub>Becoming much like aluminium frames then I guess.</man down the pub>

I am likely to tread into the ‘man down the pub’ mode that INH was highlighting, but as it has been explained to me, this is the result of using much thinner tubes, in order to reduce weight which follows from having a much higher UTS material, but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness and so consequently the frame tends to transmit more vibration energy form the road to the rider.

Part of the problem I suspect is that when a company like Condor or Genesis comes out and says they’re goign to make a steel race frame the development process goes something like this.

Racer: make it stiffer
Genesis: OK, here’s the 2nd itteration
Racer: make it stiffer
Genesis: OK here’s the 3rd.
Racer: etc etc etc.

Genesis: here’s our new steel race frame
Punter: Whaaaattttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s 1800g, I can get a frame in S3 tubing that’s 1600g!
Genesis: OK we’ll quietly shelve that and bring out a carbon model like everyone else.

Steel frames aren’t popular in races anymore not because they’re heavy but because they’re just not stiff at the kind of weights people now expect.

I know you’re a good person who deserves to be riding a bike he really likes.

Peace and love man. Peace and love.

drinking this early in the day ?

I was lucky enough to own a Pegoretti Duende for a while, before I got my (standard) Condor Acciaio.

I’d be loathe to say that could tell any real difference between the two. Being a layman cyclist, am pretty certain that any difference in feel / performance would be too imperceptible for my insensitive behind to pick up on.

All that being said, the Peg’ was an absolute joy to own / look at / stroke and the rest of it!

Genesis: OK we’ll quietly shelve that and bring out a carbon model like everyone else.

Which really is the ideal as they can put the material where it’s needed, make complex shapes, and easily tweak the feel of the bike. Just have a look at the BB and head tube area of a modern carbon race bike compared to a skinny tubed steel bike.

Nice frame that Zero, and seemingly excellent “value” for full builds too.

I’ve got a Salsa Pistola, which I’ve had for a few years and I love it. It has been over Col d’Iseran, Stelvio, Gavia, Agnello etc and certainly is not heavy (OX platinum tubes, ultegra 6700, hope on open pro). However, it can get a bit of a speed wobble descending (probably my poor technique).

It is no longer made so if I was buying now I would get a Ritchey mainly as I like the look of steel bikes. BUT I suspect that the ride quality of a good aluminium bike (CAAD 10) is comparable and would be cheaper and lighter.

Guess what kind of bike/frame material Andy Wilkinson used to break the current 24hour TT record (which now stands at an amazing 541 miles!

drinking this early in the day ?

Steady or I’ll start on the 5spot again 😉

Pegoretti Duende v Condor Acciaio.

Really?!!!

Just buy KPHC’s frame from the classifieds and get it over with, then you can move on with your life.

Pegoretti Duende v Condor Acciaio.

Really?!!!

Which part, that I ever switched 😳 or that I couldn’t tell a marked difference?

Don’t know about the Duende but there’s no mistaking the Marcelo for anything else. Mine (a 55, more or less) weighs about 2kg, or 7.8kg built with carbon tubs, and doesn’t give anything away to my 6.3kg plastic bike. My PB on my midweek loop was on the Pego and with 1200m over 50km is hardly flat.

Hora – Julian would like to send you an email. He’s seen the thread and would like to help in advance of tomorrow. If you’re willing for this approach, drop me an email (my address is in my profile) and I will forward that to him and connect you both directly.

Guess what kind of bike/frame material Andy Wilkinson used to break the current 24hour TT record

That’s an odd esoteric race though (impressive all the same). Road (race) bikes are designed for bunch racing, where weight and stiffness are priorities. Last decent rider I know (2nd Cat or above) gave up on steel around 2002-04 as it was simply noncompetitive. Titanium fell off the radar around the same time for similar reasons in that it can’t be built as light and stiff as CF, and aluminium frames offer almost identical performance for 1/2 the price or less.

That’s an odd esoteric race though (

You;re right of course. It’s a race where the right balance of comfort and aerodynamics are more important than anything else.

It still makes me chuckle that he effectively used 50% mountain bike/50% road bike.

YGM.

Ive got the guts of a roadbike in bits sat in the front living room. It looks kinda sad. It needs a frame and forks.

It needs a frame and forks.

hora – I’m down in Putney if you wanted to have a look at the Acciaio? It was Greg at Condor who sorted me out when I got it, another good guy to chat to

It still makes me chuckle that he effectively used 50% mountain bike/50% road bike.

Doesn’t he do pretty much all his riding on it, even commuting?

rack mounts would suggest so!

Starley have a lovely looking stainless frame with a claimed weight of 1300g 😯

http://starleybikes.com/frames/road/ss-frame/

Bit over budget though 🙁

Yes he does. lovely isn’t it.

but then making those tubes larger in diameter to also increase the stiffness

This.

I’ve said it many times:
1) Handling = geometry
2) Weight = material
3) Stiffness = tube diameter.

The drive to (much) thinner but stronger steel with larger diameters reduces 2) and increases 3). But by far the most important is 1) how a bike handles. A “plain” 520 steel frame with spot-on geometry will be a much better ride than a 953 or above frame with inferior geometry. It may be a few 100g heavier, weight you can save elsewhere, and won’t be as stiff (not always a bad thing), but it will ride better.

I had titanium frame, aside from the weight (and finish) it might as well have been steel. My paddy Wagon out-handles it because the geometry is better.

And to just veer away from the performance man-in-the-pub stuff for a second, surely the most important thing about steel bikes is that they just look ‘right’…

…no matter how hard any overly-bland background wallpaper or radiators try to distract from that

Starley have a lovely looking stainless frame with a claimed weight of 1300g

Wow! That is crazy light. It might be that we’re only now starting to see stainless steels really achieving their design parameters with frames as light as this.

I’d be scared of cracking a stainless steel frame that light.

Oh go on then, if we’re having a steel love-in!

The big pile up on the M40 sadly held me up from Condors until late and me running across the motorway to get a Swan wandering around lane2 and (thankfully) a lorry and a coach blocked the traffic for me. No one got out of their cars to help either! Anyway soneone R.I.P’d today.