My wife is Polish, they have a whole different set of traditions. To start with whilst planning the wedding we just kind of assumed they were the same 😉 Then after plenty of confusion we just rolled with whatever suited us. Our wedding was pretty chilled, no real speeches or anything too formal. My wife was friends with the photographer beforehand and had done some modelling work for him, so that helped. He charged us £100 🙂

Just as a quick retort to prices, typically the packages we were offering were between £1k to the £2.5K mark, based on that you’d have both a photographer and an assistant (7 years degree training in Photography between them), varying between preparation / reception / up to sit down through to Dawn to finish. Output from a rage of Graphire / Queensbury and Album Australia’s.

The market was the £10-£30k weddings.

The £1000 packages were basically loss leaders, profit was made on reprints / parents albums etc. The higher packages basically tailored everything you needed up front.

Given the UK wedding season typically (or rather historically) lasts 6 months, and you have a finite number of days to actually shoot weddings (ie weekends mainly Saturdays) Lets say for argument that you run 75% capacity so 40 weddings (typically what we would shoot). Average out the packages at £1.75K and you’re at £70k gross turnover, VAT territory so knock 20% off that so you’re down to £58k.

Typical album cost … between £300-600 so consumable costs of £18k, marketing on average 8-10 wedding fairs per year plus a website so another £10k including exhibition kit.

Camera kit, on average you’d go through a shutter and / or body (or both) every 18 months. so factor in £2k for wear and tear against at least £20k of kit (triple that if you’re using digital medium Format).

Suddenly you’re down to £28k to pay not only wages (for both of you) but also any premises / insurance and incidental costs not taking into account depreciation.

Meanwhile you’re competing against the “£500 for a disk of images” brigade.

Granted, loved the job and some weddings were a breeze, but when you earned your money you REALLY earned it, such as the occasion I was assisting when the Bride, who had booked out Tatton Park broke her nose on the Bathroom sink the night before. They has taken no insurance so had to go ahead regardless. Three weeks of retouching to get it presentable (semi charged for).

And don’t get me started on hysterical brides, wedding planners that don’t have a clue what they are doing, florists who think a slither of vine is going to hold 5kg or wet dangling roses together for a day, or Vicars who still think photographers steal peoples souls !

Brides (dont bash me for this) want the dress and the album, one to show their children and the other to show their friends and family …

Don’t miss it (ok maybe a little)

My wife was friends with the photographer beforehand and had done some modelling work for him, so that helped. He charged us £100

Say no more, say no more….

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDIr0yvZ5g[/video]

I’m sorry Rich; I just coon’t resist. 😳

A nods as good as a wink to a blind bat….

You are the one on the right then Elf?

😆

Mate of mine could do that sketch word for word. With almost the same voice, too.

You didn’t answer my question!

Mightymarmite your post is astounding, that’s a ridiculous amount to pay for photos! That said, I know people who would have died of shame if their wedding came in at less than £20k so figures I suppose.

I bet you’ve got some pretty fancy gear haven’t you

yes i have some gear but it has to earn me money. plenty of amateurs have more camera equipment than me.

Thing is Emma, marmite has clearly shown how big the costs are for relatively little return. It’s not like those prices are getting him a new car. I think it’s the (sad) truth that it’s hard to make money as a photographer these days. The 500 quid and a disk guys mentioned are kidding if they think they are making a profit and increasingly people think the pro prices are ridiculous compared to getting a mate to do it. I’m pretty serious about making the best of my photography but I’m not about to quit my day job thinking it will pay the bills instead. My amateur gear is already a few thousand, so paying less than the price of one lens for a pros work starts to sound ok again.

FWIW, the pro we used cost about 1500 euros, for pre-prep,office ceremony and formal shots, NO reception… The second highest individual cost of the day. 1st place went to inviting most of my rugby club to the reception (buffet/bar)!

It’s a changing market. Back when everyone had a 35mm PaS and send their films to Truprint (remember them?) hiring a photographer brought in obvious skills and equippment that everyday folk couldn’t match. Nowadays the gap between what’s possible with little knowledge and a pro is much narrower. Although still there, of course.

I think a fair few ‘pros’ could do with raising their game though. A friend of a friend is a pro (althoguh I am not sure to what level) and her pictures are quite ordinary. What she does though is come round your house and that makes an occasion out of it that just wouldn’t happen if it were another family member. The pics are fine, but not striking imo. However one pic she put on her website was technically shocking in my view. I’d have binned it if it were one of mine! Actually no, I’d have taken the shot and bloomin well done it right 🙂

I understand that the photographer has to make some money but I suppose as mol has just mentioned, some pro’s are awful and don’t take very nice photos but charge a fortune whereas a mate might by chance take some brilliant ones. I don’t think I’d ever do a wedding if I was a photographer, brides will never be happy, I’ve not met a bride who has said to me ‘my photos were amazing’, generally they’ve not been happy with them, or wished they’d had something different which just makes me thinks it’s all part of the unnecessary circus we all seem to get sucked into with weddings. That said, I have a photographer booked so can’t be too much of a hypocrite!

I don’t know anyone who thought their wedding photos were anything other than crap. £1,500 for some crap photos is poor value for money. I suspect you can get good ones for £15,000 mind.

As a photographer, being pro is no guarantee of quality – most people say it is about 85% business/marketing skills that matter in terms of being able to make a living out of it.

I’ve only done one wedding so far, and the B+G’s verdict was that the pics were ‘**** amazing’ 😀

I think weddings bay the bills don’t they?

Emma – I’d have done the wedding for you! I’d do one for free for the experience, but you’d have to accept the results 🙂

Don’t you live in Spain though mol? Feel free to drop by, ours is actually the partner of a work colleague and charging £250, just to take the pressure of family having to try and get snaps for us. We weren’t originally going to get one.

Thing is,

MM’s excellent post highlights a lot of expenses which perhaps aren’t immediately obvious and it goes some way to explaining why it’s an expensive service. But.

I don’t see as is much different to many other professions. Say, for instance, I want to set myself up as a mechanic. Well, I’ll need premises, tools, a garage, and do you know how much a car lift and bay is? Oh, I was thinking of taking six months off in the summer when business is slow too, so I’ll have to double my fees to make ends meet. A thousand pounds for a service then sir, I’ve got to pay my assistant after all?

I take your point, but I’d respectfully suggest that if you choose a profession which only provides work for half of the year, you might consider a second profession for the other half? (-:

I think TBH though, the money people spend on weddings baffles me generally. Three grand might be what you have to pay to get a high-quality professional photographer but, y’know, I think I’d be happier paying 500 quid for a lesser service from moderately talented amateur. Certainly I can think of better ways of spending the other two and a half grand, it’d pay for a fortnight in Florida for a start. When I get married it’ll be to get married, not to have a wedding.

Old romantic, me.

This isn’t likely in the day of digital SLR camera, but many years ago (in the golden age of actual film) I agreed to do the shoot for the ceremony portion of a friend’s wedding. I shot a huge roll of 35mm film and when I took it out of the camera, it had disenged from the winding gear and I had a completely unexposed roll of film. Kind of embarrasing to say the least.

When I get married it’ll be to get married, not to have a wedding.

You’re a man though, and you won’t have any say (thankfully 😉 ).

‘s probably about right. (-:

I don’t see as is much different to many other professions. Say, for instance, I want to set myself up as a mechanic. Well, I’ll need premises, tools, a garage, and do you know how much a car lift and bay is? Oh, I was thinking of taking six months off in the summer when business is slow too, so I’ll have to double my fees to make ends meet. A thousand pounds for a service then sir, I’ve got to pay my assistant after all?

And the dealer who charges 55,00€ per hour labour X 8 hours per day work = 440,00€ per day. Now divide the 1.500,00€ into an hourly rate taking into account the event itself, visits beforehand to check out the locations speak to the B&G, editing and mounting in the albums etc…
Last time I sold a car lift it was about 10k, but that was a few years ago. 😉

Don’t you live in Spain though mol?

Germany, and only until July 🙂

Grum – That’s not necessarily true, I’ve asked my other halfs opinion and his standard response is ‘whatever you want, just remind me what time to turn up and I’ll be there’. Nightmare.

Molgrips – Well, feel free to drop by Hereford in august if you want some practice. 8)

Why is that a nightmare? Gives you carte blanche doesn’t it?

See, if you were lucky enough to be marrying me, right, you’d be arriving at the church in style.

In a papier mache helicopter? Presumably on a flatbed lorry?

Because I want his input, it’s our day not just mine!

Elfin, you are sadly not that lucky, and you would have to knock me out BA stylie to get me on there

😥

But it cooduv bin so wonderful….

Oh come on. Elf ‘n’ safety nightmare ain’t it, you of all people should know that!

And the dealer who charges etc

Yeah, there’s a reason I don’t pay dealer prices for services either…!

A nods as good as a wink to a blind bat….

LOLZ, not a million miles from the truth 😉

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ule_plKQ6_w&feature=grec_index[/video]

Emma, speaking as a blerk, the wedding isn’t that massive a deal. He want’s it to be perfect for you but only because he loves you. The mechanics of the day are pretty irrelevant, the marriage is the important thing. Good luck 😉

Just as a caveat to my earlier post that’s going back 4 years, when u could actually generate income off shooting weddings. The attitude of digital making it easier hence cost should be less / anyone can do it is a misconception. 10 years ago you would shoot 4 rolls of medium format (50 images), £30 of film with processing, negatives in an archive box, prints in a mount album. Technology change equated to a new film stock. The printer also had a larger influence and u would work closely with him / her to get your “look”

Digital, 200-300 images, digital work station, edit, retouch (modern brides don’t have blemishes remember) send to album company, archive all images (tiff, raw, edits) on three seperate archives. Photog now IT expert, printer, retoucher jack of all trades.

Digital helps people get it right occasionally if not by letting them know instantly if they’ve got it wrong, a profesional SHOULD get it right every time (or at least recognize when they don’t). The camera is still just a box with a hole, you have to know what it (and light) does to get good results.

Re only working six months, I wish. The entire off season is spent marketing and booking ahead for the following years, often 2 years in advance so they could get the “suitable” venue. Weddings made up 50% of the business model, and was by far and away the less lucrative and time consuming hence giving it away.

And before it gets to inflamed, its not rocket science either, its a few basic principles to capture the image, the best photographers I have worked with have been able to get the most out of the subject, they are the great artists, those that have a bit of business acumen on top … make great photographers.

Interesting stuff, thanks.

It’s not rocket science perhaps, but I’m sure there are less stressful ways to make a living.

I think perhaps the comment that it’s “by far and away the less lucrative and [more] time consuming” is kinda where I was coming from. From your point of view it’s a ballache and costs you a fortune, from a customer’s point of view it’s a massive expense for what amounts to some nice photographs. For the photographer there’s better ways of earning money, for the B&G there’s better ways of spending it. Maybe.

Either way, it’s a fascinating insight into what’s involved. Makes me wonder what other professions could benefit from a show & tell.

Still think photography has its place, when we lost the MIL it was those that became most treasured, and heaven forbid anything happen to our own wedding album!

Think the issue for me was the clients expectation of having the same quality as what we produced, but at the same cost as mr / mrs “£500 for the dvd” and those same mr /mrs touting the “he’s ripping you off we can do it for much less” marketing approach.

Fitting analogy would be someone walking into the LBS, plonking £100 on the counter and saying “I want a bike for megavalanche and tesco sell bikes for £100 so don’t bother trying to rip me off”

They may get to the bottom of the hill on it, with teeth intact but that’s through good luck rather than good measure.

Photog now IT expert, printer, retoucher jack of all trades.

You’ll get flamed for that. 😉

Digital helps people get it right occasionally if not by letting them know instantly if they’ve got it wrong, a profesional SHOULD get it right every time (or at least recognize when they don’t).

100% agree.

mr / mrs “£500 for the dvd” and those same mr /mrs touting the “he’s ripping you off we can do it for much less” marketing approach.

You’ve entered into the world from the customers point of view. If I may take the example of your MIL, are the memories affected by the fact it’s a well composed and executed photo? Or would any old snap evoke the same memories. The customers just can not see the work behind a photo.
I work alongside a “professional” photographer who has the top of the range Nikon, 11fps shooting capability and he uses that capability to the max. How many crap photos is he taking just to get one good one? And more inportantly does the viewing public know or care?

Either way, it’s a fascinating insight into what’s involved. Makes me wonder what other professions could benefit from a show & tell.

Web disigners and the IT world? Is that a profession though? 😉

Web disigners and the IT world?

WebDev is a very good case in point. Teaching would be another.

WebDev is a very good case in point.

Business-to-business is an entirely different model. Paying £1500 for a couple of days work that produces a thick document is fine.

Selling that to the public, when a mate can do something similar for free is, very different.

WebDev is a very good case in point. Teaching would be another.

Teachers don’t try and charge a couple of grand to impart information, we do it for the warm feeling of helping fellow human beings improve themselves, whereas a web designer will tell you that you’ll need to spend 1.000s on the mysterious art of webdev and only paying a couple of hundred is a complete waste of time. The search function might help on this, or give me 200quid and I’ll find the thread for you. 😀
Teaching, I would say, is the complete opposite in that we are underpaid and under valued.

Thanks everyone, plenty for me to read through!!

With regard to the happy couple it’s certainly not that they aren’t bothered about pictures but I don’t think they appreciate the sentimental importance of having a nice album of pictures. They were expecting friends and family to take snaps and be done at that but my Wife was keen to ensure they have a few more structured photos on the basis that at least then they wouldn’t regret not having had them done.

on this basis the expectation of my work isn’t high but I’d still like to do the best I can for them. I’ll work through some of the ideas as I reckon they’ll help me get more out of my camera generally.

Thinking about it one of the things I’d like to get to grips with is having the right amount of light on people’s faces, this is something I generally struggle with as a lot of the photos I take of my children end up with very bright faces from the internal flash or dark shadows from having the flash off.

Because I want his input, it’s our day not just mine!

You have his input! He is telling you that none of it matters to him. If I were you I’d be flattered – the main thing (ie you) outshines any amount of flowers and canapes.

Thinking about it one of the things I’d like to get to grips with is having the right amount of light on people’s faces, this is something I generally struggle with as a lot of the photos I take of my children end up with very bright faces from the internal flash or dark shadows from having the flash off.

That’s where you have to control the camera by taking light readings for the flesh tones and not the surroundings, as the camera will do in auto setting, and that means getting to grips with manual settings and spot metering.

Teaching, I would say, is the complete opposite in that we are underpaid and under valued.

Point is that everyone thinks that teachers only work when they’re in school and get get big fat breaks over summer.

Selling that to the public, when a mate can do something similar for free is, very different.

Sounds pretty similar to me. “Why should I pay you £x for this when my 12-year old has FrontPage?”