Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 224 total)
  • Wear a helmet FFS
  • devs
    Free Member

    Devs – I have been biking for 40 yrs and have never hit my head. If you hit your helmeted head and have no injury it is very likely that you would have had a very minor injury without it – that is the magnitude of the foirces involved.

    Well done. You are obviously such a great biker that you’ll never have a crash. Let me tell you about the forces involved. I weight 17st and hit the ground at 28.7mph. My helmet cracked in half as did my shoulder. Apart from passing out every time I tried to stand up my head escaped unscathed. My shades prevented the skin getting wripped off my face too. I’m glad I was wearing them and my helmet.
    I hear and understand your theories and stats but they won’t help you on the day when the head/hard object impact occurs. As I asked before, who has had a crash and regretted wearing a helmet? I’m not seeing any here.
    Peace and love and all that stuff and I hope you never have to test your theories.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Devs – the answer to that is everyone who has had a serious spinal injury from mountainbiking.

    oldgrump08
    Free Member

    Are you saying they are all down to the rotational forces caused by helmets???

    amedias
    Free Member

    Well, fudge the rotation this rotation that, risk this risk that…I for one am glad I wear a helmet, and believe it or not the one incident that sticks in my mind more than any other is nothing to do with a really heavy landing or being knocked out, it’s the time I crashed on to a broken picnic bench and impaled my helmet on a sticky-outy nail, only an inch or so long but I am sure as hell glad my helmet took that impact and not my head.

    anyway, even if you’re not sold on the spine and brain injury aspects TJ there’s a lot to be said for a helmet sliding down the tarmac and ending up with a few scuffs versus your head and a nice scalping…

    I’ll wear mine and be happy thank you very much

    sc-xc
    Full Member

    Why are there so many discussions about this? Wear one if you want, don’t wear one if you don’t want.

    As someone said above, I feel wierd without one – and am generally glad to have it on when I crash. Fair play to those who don’t like em, that’s their choice.

    Daz – that is why I don’t ride bikes anymore 8)

    jimw
    Free Member

    I agree it is about risk assessment- I personally assess that it is extremely risky not to wear a helmet (well, barking actually)- just like it is very risky to go off road on your own. Therefore I wear a helmet and when I see someone else off road on their own especially at nght or without a helmet I think ‘what a silly billy’ (or words to that effect), acknowlege that they are far braver than me and just hope they get back in one piece. But if they wish to do that’s fair enough, although I have a paramedic cousin who would argue and does, often, very strongly that it is very selfish to do so considering a bad potentally preventable accident can affect people other than yourself

    breakneckspeed
    Free Member

    TJ – I hear and understand what your say about the research, and would agree that more ‘real world’ research is called for looking at all forms of cycling and the issues related to crash protection.

    However, two things spring to mind – I’ve had 3 crashes were I believe (given the evidence) my helmet saved me from a significant head injury if not a fatal injury – both were just riding along crashes – one involved the catastrophic failure of equipment (albeit at speed although this was not a contributory factor) – the other was low speed, on the tow path caught a tyre edge on a raised cobble & went out the side catching a small concrete block on its corner

    Neither were predictable neither were particularly preventable – how would such event fit in with your notion of only wearing a helmet when you need it

    aracer
    Free Member

    Why are there so many discussions about this?

    Mainly because the helmet fundamentalists seem unable to accept that it’s perfectly reasonable to have a POV different to them, and call anybody who doesn’t follow their religion an idiot. Meanwhile people like me and TJ are perfectly happy that other people wear a helmet if they want to (in fact I always wear a helmet off road myself, and 99%+ of the time on road, and am very happy that others do too, but not impressed by the fundamentalist and inaccurate stance some people take on this).

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Well put aracer. I object to being called stupid and selfish for taking a rational approach that relies on evidence but does not agree with the majority view.

    I also really object to the “helmet saved my life” rhetoric as this simply cannot be stated. The original post on this there are two interpretations (at least) firstly the helmet failed and failed to prevent injury or that the helmet worked and saved more serious injury. There is no way of knowing which is correct.

    Breakneckspeed – if you had no injury with a helmet then you would have only had a minor injury without one. Very unlikely to have been catastrophic injury in those circumstances. Helmets do not change an incedent which would be a major injury without a helmet to zero injury with.

    ChunkyMTB
    Free Member

    I wear a helmet to mainly protect my head from scrapes and bangs from dense singletrack (branches etc) and general knocks from messing around on the bike. The peak also helps protect my eyes along with glasses. In 20 years on riding I’ve crashed many times; I can’t say whether the helmet stopped me from drinking through a tube right now. All I know is that the last big stack I had if there was no helmet I wouldn’t be here. High speed, head first (top of the head) into a pointed rock. The helmet had a inch and a half hole in it just stopping short of my skull.

    It is about risk assessment and if people don’t want to wear them then fair enough. I’ve just got into the habit of always wearing one.

    Plenty of guff on the internet, anti helmet wearing forums etc give negative feedback from wearing and obviously pro-forums give the opposite.

    The danger is slightly increased with the speed and type of terrain on a bike. People don’t walk down the streets with a helmet on – they can easily trip and smack either the back of their head or side of the head on the kerb/pavement and die.

    You will always get people banging away on a different drum beat anyway.

    G
    Free Member

    I really cannot understand anyone of TJ’s obvious wit and intellect arguing against wearing a helmet. If buts and maybes apart, dangerous sport = minimise the risks whenever you can. Personally I’ve properly bust 3 helmets now, and theres not once where I thought “I wish I hadn’t been wearing that”, I’ve also got past numerous other incidents unscathed where the lid has deflected or absorbed an impact without the impact doing me any harm.

    The only exception being a night ride where a low hanging branch caught my head light, and being attached to the hat I was whipped off the bike backwards. Spose that’ll have you arguing via the self same logic that you should night ride both helmet and lights free?

    Can I be added to the list of people who won’t ride with non helmet wearers please? Quite simply I do not want the responsiblity for them or for their stupidity.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    G – I am not arguing against wearing helmets – people keep saying I am but I am not.

    I am arguing for my right not to wear one when I don’t want to as cycling as a whole is not a dangerous pursuit. I am also trying to show folk the flaws in modern cycle helmets hopefully to help build pressure for better designs.

    Remember folks – cycling is a very safe pursuit as a whole Some disciplines can be dangerous – wear as much armour as you think needed. When I am doing a 40 mile loop all traffic free all on easy flat trails ( diusused railways and canal towpaths) then the risk of any accident is very low, the risk of a serious head injury is infinitesimally low. I am prepared to accept that risk. Some of the riding I do you are more likely to drown in a bog than crack your bonce. Should I take a snorkel?

    redthunder
    Free Member

    Bollacks. TJ.

    I came off almost stopped and got clobbered on the head by the cassette.

    Wear a helmet FFS. What have you got to loose ?…………..

    Your life or your ability to type shit on this forum.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    Tandem Jeremy

    No problem with discussing this issue with you. You’ve done well to keep the debate so rational even with so many points of view flying around

    Finally it would be very interesting to get some real data on this but I really can’t think how it would be done. I was wondering if the hospitals near trail centres record admissions from Mountsin Bikers. I know Milton Keynes general logs “Snow Dome” admissions. But even if you had the data people with out helmets would almost certainly be a non representive group

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Ta ampthill

    Issues with using hospital admission stats are many fold. Firstly you only see part of the story, secondly serious head injuries are categorised in many ways thus leading to difficulties with comparisons and also there is no way of knowing whether helmets reduced or exacerbated injuries.

    I would like to see much more experimental work and much tougher testing standards that reflect real life as far as can be done.

    breakneckspeed
    Free Member

    Right – I’m pro choice – its up to the individual whether or not they were a helmet – I have no issue riding with people who choose not to – its there responsibility – I personally think that is fool hardy and irresponsible as the consequence will impact on other people but that my personal view.

    I have not always worn a helmet – and did have a similar attitude to TJ but became increasingly nervous about the consequence of coming of on any type of surface – I don’t believe that my helmet gives me magical powers of protection and appreciate that it will only provide a level of protection in certain circumstances – much as the rest of my cycling kit does.

    I fully understand TJs argument that the evidence base is deficient and I recognise that the competing force of safety, styling, pricing etc determine that the function of helmets

    Finally TJ thanks for your reply – however, certainly in the first crash several injures were sustained, not least a compound fracture of my C3 vertebra (fortunately a stable fracture, and I would censed that this may have been a result of wearing a helmet) – but strongly believe that a side impact to the rear of the skull on to concrete would not cause significant, if not fatal indury

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    TJ how should a helmet be different then and how would you achieve this?

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Al – from what I know and have read-

    more extensive cover coming below the ears and onto the nape of the neck and possibly onto the cheekbones. Full face should have the chinbar in contact with the chin and should be made of polystyrene

    Smooth outer shell without projections and with a low friction coating but no plastic shell.

    Multiple sized shells – the better a shell fits the better it works. TRL state that the use of one size fits all shells with those adjustable bands is a contributory factor in poor performance due to the gap at the back of the head.

    There is a chap out there looking at low friction coatings for helmets and snowboard helmets perform better in rotational testing than cycle ones – as do ice hockey helmets.

    It is no coincidence that motorcycle helmet design has evolved to a smooth shell with a chinbar that sits next to the chin.

    Testing standards should be tested with whole body dummys not just headforms, should involve rotational forces and should be generally more realistic

    David Coulthard designed one attempt at redressing the faults

    swisstim
    Free Member

    I have never read such a load of ridiculous rubbish from one man…TJ you really are a prize idiot. I am certainly pleased that I never have to ride with you, as I refuse to ride with anybody who does not wear a helmet. You may well call this bigoted of me, but having made full use of a helmet on three separate occasions I can certainly vouch for their effectiveness. Each time the helmet sustained considerable damage – flattening out and absorbing the impact. Head injuries are terrible things, as has been seen very recently in the news. We should certainly all assess risk, and analyse the potential for various injuries undertaking the sport that we all love. I would posit, as doctors said to me, that I am only able to carry on doing this sport because I was wearing a helmet.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Swiss tim – and you talk tripe as well :-)

    I have worked on head injury units and know a bit about them, Doctors may have said that to you but they have no way of knowing – read the BMJ debate on helmets for the range of medical opinion and the many consultant neurosurgeons who will state clearly in court that helmets are not proven to reduce injury and no one can ever say that in any one accident a helmet would have or would not have reduced injury

    Everything I have posted is back by extensive reading and research. I lke evidence based practice not old wives tales

    swisstim
    Free Member

    How, pray tell, is personal experience an…”old wives tale”?

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Because it is anecdotal and therefore proves nothing. You simply do not know what could have happened without the helmet. Wheras everything I have posted is backed by real, peer reviewed replicable research

    swisstim
    Free Member

    ohh crossing posts…fine, I will accept that my personal experience is for you anecdotal…and have no doubt that inspite of wanting to help improve helmet manufacturers research I have no desire to try and recreate each accident with and without a helmet…I wouldn’t fancy my chances…

    In fact…I tell you what, why don’t you give us the benefit of some of your knowledge about head injuries then…Aside from the helmet debate, let’s leave that alone for a second. What we could talk about is how you can hit your head, appear to be fine and then suffer a huge swelling within your skull which causes a pressure on your brain and then…..why don’t you explain how that works so we can all understand it from your medical standpoint?

    plop_pants
    Free Member

    egg, drop it, smashed egg.
    egg in polystyrene box, drop egg, egg still an egg.

    brainiac science in action it may be but it tells me something about the the properties of polystyrene that might be useful in saving my noggin.

    crikey
    Free Member

    TJ, I admire your persistence in the face of overwhelming opinion, and it does you credit.

    Unfortunately, the debate is similar to debates about religion, and is equally unwinnable.

    They believe, and will not look at the evidence.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Swiss tim – you talking about coning? I have seen it – very nasty. Or a subdural heamatoma or a diffuse axon injury? How about focal injuries? Sub arachnoid heamatomas? What do you want to know?

    Plop pants – that aspect I do not deny in anyway.

    Ta crikey!

    Wookster
    Full Member

    Thompson DC, Rivara, Thompson RS. 1996
    Full paper available on-line mate :D

    Summary report of the Harborview Helmet Studies.
    Study at 7 Seattle hospitals involving 3,390 cyclists who were injured or died 1992-4. Individuals with head or brain injuries compared to those involved in crashes but who did not suffere such injuries. 50.6% had worn helmets at time of crash. Concluded that helmets decrease risk of head injury by 69%, brain injury by 65% and severe brain injury by 74%. Helmets work equally well for all age groups, and in crashes with and without motor vehicles (which are most important risk factor for serious injury). Substantial protection provided against lacerations and fractures to upper and mid-face, but not to lower face. Hard shell helmets may offer greatest protection against severe brain injury

    To be honest I dont think wearing a lid makes me super man but I think I am better off with one than with out, if you dont want to then dont will happily ride with you and go for a pint afterward (would think your daft though!!! :twisted: !!!)

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Wookster – that type of study is useful but always overstates the case as they don’t see all cases ie those not wearing helmets that don’t get a head injury. Neither do they generally differentiate between skills and type of activity. So its a pointer but a flawed one. Self selecting sample IIRC in the jargon which always accentuates positives

    swisstim
    Free Member

    All of them please TJ, it would be good to become as educated as you in these matters.

    swisstim
    Free Member

    Not sure which way crikey was aiming that actually

    Wookster
    Full Member

    Mate agree to disagree but I hope neither of us ever need the use of our lid or skull when out for a ride!! Take care mate!! (still think your daft!) :D am off to bed have a 5am (lidded) ride to look forward too!

    Wookster
    Full Member

    One question ( not a troll) though mate what lid do you wear when you do bet its not a face saver is it!?!

    crikey
    Free Member

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_injury

    Swisstim, read through that, then I’m sure either me or TJ could try to answer any other questions that you may have about head injuries.

    I’m firmly with TJ; like him, I’ve worked with head injured patients in critical care, and I agree with his interpretation of the risks and of the limited value of helmets in the prevention of serious head injuries and deaths.

    There is a large amount of evidence out there, and much of it is contradictory. I don’t understand the apparently overwhelming desire to see everyone wearing a helmet all the time, and I think, for urban cycling, we are in danger of concentrating on the wrong approach to improve safety.

    As above, i’m also sure that no one will change their view regarding helmets; it’s an almost religious debate; you believe it or you don’t, and too few people are prepared to enter the debate with an open mind.

    swisstim
    Free Member

    Appreciate that crikey, been there before to read up a little on what happen to me.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Wookster – aimed at me?

    I’d have a facesaver but they are only in kids sizes

    I have a bell vented XC helmet for all day use – last used at Blairadam woods as I knew I would be wearing it most of the day.

    For jumping and stuff a 661 pisspot lid – more protective but less comfy so can’t be worn all day unless its cold. Tends to be worn at glentress – off for the climbs and on for the descents.

    Last ride helmetless – 40 mile loop on disused railway lines and canal towpaths.

    crikey
    Free Member

    I do think that compulsion will come; the views on here suggest that the majority of those commenting would like it.

    I also think that once we have compulsion, the number of serious head injuries and deaths will not go down, so we will have a restrictive law for little actual benefit.

    swisstim
    Free Member

    So…selective helmet use then. Why use one when out jumping?

    swisstim
    Free Member

    Crikey, funnily enough, whilst I am ‘for’ helmets in this debate, I am against being made to wear one by law…it isn’t good idea when we are trying to increase the number of cyclists on our roads….and that is a fact. As apposed to being a controversal topic of debate among the medical proffession.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Arrghghhh – swisstim have you actually read my posts?

    I wear a helmet when appropriate. I do a bit of ambient jeycore lite riding – helmets are not allowed in that niche of the sport
    I do a bit of freefallriding ( bad jumping) – to look hardcore I wear a pisspot and for the bit inbetween a vented xc lid.

    Its all about being rational and making rational risk assessments. low risk – no helmet, moderate risk either the vented xc lid or the pisspot(depending whether it would be reasonable to keep taking it off ie short or long climbs), high risk the pisspot.

    RepacK
    Free Member

    TJ – I would never deny your right to ride w or w/o a helmet but when you dismiss evidence that other people provide as “anecdotal” or “overstating” yet hold yours up to be infallible it should come as no surprise that people find discussion with you frustrating.

    I agree that there is evidence for helmets not being as good as they could be BUT I also realise that they DO prevent a lot of injuries, thats fact. To argue “but how do you know it prevented damage etc..” is rather futile as its just your opinion & by your definition – anecdotal.

    Likewise to claim that a helmet failed (although possibly true) & ergo provided no benefit to the wearer is wrong. If SOME benefit was gained thats a positive. I think its good that someone does highlight the weaknesses in helmet design but your stance against helmet wearing is uh odd for someone with so much experience.

    At the end of the day its your choice, others should respect that but you also shouldnt be surprised when your strong opinions on the fact rub folk up the wrong way. Especially when its a subject so emotive & one where common sense would seem to decree that helmet-wearing is the smart thing to do.

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