I mean, we’ve had engineering applicants who couldn’t wire a plug FFS

Depends if you need to wire plugs in your field, doesn’t it? 🙂 If I came to one of your interviews I would attempt a bodge but tell you exactly what I would’ve done had I had access to the proper stuff. And tell you the exact limitations of my bodge too.

I take your point, but it doesn’t mean that university is worthless of course. For example, Mrs Grips did a literature degree, and is an excellent writer. She can’t spell very well however. Doesn’t make her any less of a writer imo.

Re the loans – I graduated in 1998 with two years’ worth of top-up living expense loans totalling something like five grand. Small beans compared to today but it cost me just over £100 a month on £17k, which was a big hit.

For example, Mrs Grips did a literature degree, and is an excellent writer. She can’t spell very well however. Doesn’t make her any less of a writer imo.

how does that work then..!?

I often feel a bit uneasy when I see badly spelled writing from graduates in any field… I’m not sure that I understand how people that do a lot of reading and writing (as they surely must do during the course) can manage this.. is it a form of dyslexia..?

She uses a spell checker and proof reads everything carefully.

Could well be a very mild form of dyslexia, I dunno. I mean it’s not like her writing is gibberish, it’s just the odd word. Especially when she’s in full flow concentrating on the story.

Spelling is about memory, writing well is more of a creative practice – they are different skills. There are lots of very intelligent people with poor memories.

what were we talking about again..? I’ve forgotten…

Erm…

Furniture, weren’t it?

Mmm…..plywood….

About 1982 apllied to the local teacher training college for a place on a woodwork teacher course, before all this cdt came in, the chap looked at my application and said fore qualifications youve no tput down any a or o levels, just an engineering apprenticeship, experience in industry, 6 city and guilds qualifications and relevant work experience wth students.

When i pointed out that i had no o or a levels he said you need to apply to the local college, and get some, that will be two more years then apply agian.

I told him where to shove his o and a levels, he asked me to repaeat it, i did, and walkked out, just as he said he had had nebver heard such language before,(before channel 4 had been invented ) and i stormed out, got half way across car park, and there was him chasiong after me, saying i see your 23, and 24 next year,i said maths your stong point then.

His answer , as a 24 next year youre classed as a mature student, get a decent grant, and dont need o and a levels.

Lets just say the rest is history…………..

Yes it was worth it for me.

Went to uni at 21, did Computer Science, I worked hard and partied pretty hard too. But it paid off I got a first and now work in software development. It has been invaluable to my career and was a great experience.

I’ll have paid my loan off in a couple of months too which totaled about 14k too by the time I left in 2002.

Coming from where I do, all those who have persevered with education are doing better for themselves;

🙂 Typical arts student approach to understanding evidence!

Nice chair … reminds me of a centipede in an attack position – Maybe not what the designer intended 🙂

Back to the OP – you asked whether the ‘cost of a degree is worth it’ -I’d say you need (or rather your children need) to consider ‘worth’ in terms of both economic and non-economic value.

From personal experience, if I had had to pay £9000 + living costs for my first degree (subsequent one’s were funded by research funding), then it would not have been ‘worth it’ purely on economic grounds. In part that because I’ve chosen employment that I’ve cared about, where I’ve felt I can make a contribution to society / public good, rather than just for ‘economic’ gain (ie often been paid peanuts, but like to think I’ve helped people).

But in terms on non-economic value (increasing recognised as equally important when assessing cost-benefit ratio’s), then yes, I would argue that it has been ‘worth it’, for two reasons. Firstly, because of what I gained, through exposure to different politics, philosophies, debate, ideas, counter-culture, feminism, equalities and a whole new way of thinking and responding to the world. From that point of view, I also think society can gain, through hopefully people sometimes being more open to new ideas and other viewpoints and cultures (not always an outcome of university, I admit, but it was in my case). Secondly, because it’s meant I can put the skills I learnt (research / critical thinking) to use for (hopefully) the benefit of people / society.

Having said all that, would I have gone to uni if faced with the level of debt that will result from £9000 fees? No, probably not. I had no parental support, and came from a background of no money, so that level of debt would have seemed huge, and I probably couldn’t have faced it. Which I guess emphasizes how socially divisive this fee increase can be.

But ultimately, surely it’s up to your children to make this decision for themselves?

I crashed and burned as soon as I left Uni – it just left me cold in terms of wanting to work in my chosen field (business/IT etc). Such a shockingly shit course for what was supposed to be one of the top 3 in the UK. Way behind the times, just like the college course I took as a pre-cursor.

IMO, some people go into Uni expecting their course (and tutors) to be relevant and topical. And I think a lot of people are let down. Maybe some things don’t have to change in the same way, e.g. History, Classics, etc – because they remain as they are. But stuff that changes really needs to be on the ball. And my course wasn;t.

Had a cracking time socially though – right through HOR and then into our flat. Ended up drifting for a couple of years immediately after because I was bored of the ‘whole lot’. Then did my own thing. Became a tennis coach for a couple of years. Then got back into my field and did really well.

But I can honestly say that nothing I learned (academically) in college or Uni has served me in a positive way.

If my son was thinking about Uni right now, I’d do some serious digging to find out what’s on offer, what makes them unique, how they compare with rival Unis, how well their Alumni fair etc. All this bollocks about ‘high pass rate’ blah blah is exactly that – bollocks.

yeah, it was a **** laugh. I’m not sure “education” is something that can be taught that easily. It’s something that you learn through trial and error. I think you truly learn stuff by making mistakes. The best art is accidental!

Surely there are two parts to this:
1) The degree itself. Vast generalisation here but as soon as Universities (and ex-Polys etc which became Unis) were measured more as businesses than outcome based it all started to go wrong. I did computer science and electrical engineering double degree (wtf was I thinking…) and in my honours year they put a new course on called computing science. It was a 3yr course on how to use Word and Excel FFS, comparing that to Computer Science was , well , i dunno let’s just say a large gap. I did a sandwich course and my employer interviewed someone off that course and then asked me wtf they were learning because they had no relevant skills.
Problem was the Uni had to get more bums on seats to get more funding and hence these sh1te courses started to appear. I can only assume from what I have seen that it has got worse.
I’ve just done grad recruitment for a Big 4 (I’m a partner) and quite honestly there were 2 candidates out of the 50 or so i personally saw that even vaguely struck me as useful. Both were realistic about what they would be doing and the skills they would need. The rest wanted 80k to do nothing and expected that as a right. I’ve never had an argument with a grad in an interview before but I did this time – bizarre. No respect these young people, none at all.

Second part is around whether University teaches you other things. Well yes, if you live away from home (and i guess with economic factors this may be less prevalent) then you have to grow up and learn to fend for yourself. I enjoyed that aspect of it. Doing computer science I was of course overrun with ladies wanting to keep my company 😉
The social aspect, and I’m not just talking drinking, is good as well, clubs and interests if you can be motivated to join are really excellent. I made great friends from different backgrounds whom i still see regularly almost 20 years later.
I don;t think there is a wrong/right answer, it depends on what you want to get out of it and what you put into it.

Sue_W – Member
…would I have gone to uni if faced with the level of debt that will result from £9000 fees? No, probably not. I had no parental support, and came from a background of no money, so that level of debt would have seemed huge, and I probably couldn’t have faced it. Which I guess emphasizes how socially divisive this fee increase can be.

you can go to any university of your choice. all you need is the grades to get in.

and it won’t cost you a penny,

not even one.

until you earn over £21k. And then your repayments are based on your income. If you don’t earn much, it doesn’t cost you much, if you earn more then you pay more.

socially divisive? – not even a little bit. there’s no reason for anyone to be put off.

lol awhiles. I’s free! let’s all do it! let’s all get edumacated. what does it count for if you can’t think for yourself? and that is the hard part I think.

it’s not free.

it can’t be free – university staff need to be paid, equipment needs to be bought, buildings need to be maintained, etc. someone has to pay for it.

it seems fair to me that the cost is met by people who’ve been to university, through a fee/loan system, rather than just everybody though an increase in income tax.

(why should people who haven’t been to university PAY for universities? – that doesn’t seem fair to me)

it seems fair to me that the cost is met by people who’ve been to university, rather than just everybody.

Surely it is fair that the cost is borne by those who benefit from it

exactly, yes.

if i decide that i want to be a excavator-driver, i will have to pay for lessons, and tests and wotnot.

and that’s fair.

if i fail the excavator-driving test, i still have to pay, and that’s fair too.

i don’t expect anyone to help me with my excavator-driving lessons.

i imagine there would be plenty of wannabee excavator-drivers who’d kill for a training loan with the same repayment system as the new student loans scheme.

but the point is like sue says, however “useful” a degree is.. it’s not about getting “a degree” but doing something “useful”. I agree with that sentiment. What is the point of trying to enlighten yourself if you’re gonna be a selfish ****?

Now we just have to work out who it is that benefits

Kevevs – Member

but the point is like sue says, however “useful” a degree is.. it’s not about getting “a degree” but doing something “useful”. I agree with that sentiment. What is the point of trying to enlighten yourself if you’re gonna be a selfish ****?

i really don’t understand what that has to do with university funding – sorry. 🙁

sorry I was talking about education. hey ho I thought it was the same thing.

and it won’t cost you a penny,

not even one.

until you earn over £21k

are you a spin doctor?
You just love this fee system – which may actually be fairer than the old system even though you owe more – but clealry the treasury expect to get the money back
Regarding the benefit as CM hints at society benefits as well as the individual – though i queston whether this individual beneift will still exist due to a flooded market of graduates.
There are many vocational training schemes where people can get industry specfic training [apprenticeship] where they will benefit from the training [as will industry who get trained electricians, engineers, admin, helath care etc for nothing] and it wont cost a penny no matter what you earn ie it wont actualy cost a penny, as in genuinely without a caveat.
you can dress it up how you like 35k debt is 35 k debt it may have favourable [compared to the market] repayment terms but the expectation is it will be repaid obviously – see hansard for the answers on this as I know you have disputed this in the past.
You seem to think the OP should not be worried as having this debt at 21 is brilliant

not quite, i think the OP should not be worried as it’s really not that bad.

these frightening, headline-grabbing, £9000 / year fees, need not influence, in any way, any decisions he and his children make about higher education.

can i transfer my debt to the new system please?

Yes,

4 years of not having to deal with ‘real life’

A qualification to do my job recognised anywhere in the world

Membership of my professional institution

Earning more than the tosser who left school at 16 and lauded it over us that he was earning £30k and driving a new car while we studied. The difference is I don’t have to do a 60 hour week, bought my first car with cash and earn more than he does 🙂

The loan is negligible in reality, you either earn loads of money and pay it back , or you don’t earn loads and its written off after a number of years.

can i transfer my debt to the new system please?

I am sure if you offer to pay the current level of fees they will let you

really?! – ace! – where do i sign?!

🙂

pretty interesting thread!

For me it was. Went back to uni as a mature student to do software. Now working in software. Would not have got my job without a degree.
I think that so many people have degrees these days if you don’t have one then you don’t even get a chance at an inerview to at least get your foot in the door.

would I have gone to uni if faced with the level of debt that will result from £9000 fees? No, probably not. I had no parental support

It’s a bit pointless looking at the number of pounds of debt. What’s important is the amount you have to repay, which is most likely peanuts.

If the number puts you off then you really need some education I think 🙂

I’m not sure how useful my having a degree was, however what I learned at uni was a very good grounding for my career and has server we well in the last 20+ years.

My major at uni was computer science, studied in the late 80’s. Despite more or less never actually having used any of the languages etc. that I was taught the course did give me a very good insight into how to develop and how computers work. IT has been a good career so far (and fairly lucrative), including allowing me to spend several years working overseas in places like Hong Kong, Germany and other parts of Europe. Once my kids have both left school then there is a good chance I’ll head overseas again – quite fancy either the States or Australia/New Zealand this time.

University, and getting my bachelors degree. Best decision I ever made in my life.

why should people who haven’t been to university PAY for universities? – that doesn’t seem fair to me

A fair point because the recipient benefits the most. But the benefits of university are partly societal. Many businesses could not function without graduates. Those graduates buy stuff and services, supporting jobs for non-graduates. In addition, society benefits from having some more educated people in it.

Yes, if you do a good course at a good place, and use your time there properly. The days when it was like the Young Ones are over. To get the full benefits you need to lay off the alcohol and drugs, work your butt off on the course to get a good result, you participate in sports and extracurricular stuff, you meet as many people as you can, and in your summers you do vacation schemes.

The only people at my university (Oxbridge) who did the whole “wayyy party party party, lets have cheese on toast at 4am and have tearful heart to hearts in our PJs, aren’t university days wonderful, la de da” thing were kids with the option of parental bailout if they couldn’t secure a good job on graduation. The people who were actually interested in a bit of social mobility kept their heads down and worked their asses off, it was pretty ruthless and harder work than my actual job now (which is hard too).

Can’t stand the people on here saying uni’s pointless in and of itself, as if it’s got nothing to do with what the students put into it.

If the number puts you off then you really need some education I think

Please note at least 75% are expected to be worse off or no better off …this is the govts own calculations. I dont know why those who think this is better mock those who challenge this view as lacking the ability to use or understand numbers/money. Paying less per month for longer may be easier to manage but it is not paying less overall for the majority of borrowers.

Graduates who have completed their studies and become one of the country’s higher earners will make a higher contribution towards the cost of their education. That is because as their earning rise, so will the rate of interest applied to their loan balance.

Graduates will not make a contribution towards tuition costs until they are earning at least £21,000, up from the current £15,000. The repayment will be 9% of income above £21,000, and all outstanding repayments will be written off after 30 years. This means all graduates will pay less per month than they do under the current system. The £21,000 earnings threshold will also be uprated annually in line with earnings from April 2016 (when the majority of students who commence a three year degree course in September 2012 will become liable to repay.

In order to make the system financially sustainable, a real rate of interest will be charged on loan repayments, but with a progressive taper:

For graduates earning below £21,000, there will be no real rate of interest applied to their loan.
For graduates earning between £21,000 and around £41,000, a real rate of interest will start to be charged, reaching a maximum of RPI plus 3%.
Above £41,000, graduates will repay at the maximum, rate of RPI plus 3%.
Under our new more progressive repayment system, around a quarter of graduates, those with the lowest lifetime earnings, will pay less than under the current system.

The Government is committed to the progressive nature of the repayment system. It will consult on potential early repayment mechanisms so that people on high incomes are not able to unfairly buy themselves out of this progressive system. These mechanisms would need to ensure that graduates on modest incomes who strive to pay their contribution early through regular payments are not penalised.

I dont know why those who think this is better mock those who challenge this view as lacking the ability to use or understand numbers/money

I’m not mocking the breakdown of who’s better off ultimately. I am questioning those who say ‘ooh x amount of debt’ when it could well mean tiny repayments.

Can’t see many disadvantages myself. But then I am not afraid of credit for certain applications.

at least 75% are expected to be worse off or no better off

Thats selective wording – if the poorest 25% are better off, then thats got to be a good thing, surely!

Personally, I get the feeling that certain, well targeted or established degree courses are clearly going to be highly beneficial, and as an Employer, I’d likely be as impressed by someone with a good degree in the classics from Oxford as someone who’d done a specialised career related degree, whereas I’d be more likely to employ someone with a good post 16 employment record than a 2.2 in media studies from Scumbag university. I think its impossible to consider a degree per-se as a good or a bad career move, its got to depend on the degree and the job itself.

University for me was far more about what it enabled me to experience, who I experienced it with, and what I learnt about myself.

To be fair though, I made damned sure I actually left with a degree (2:2 in Technology Management, a BEng) at the end of it all though. Meant I had to really pull my socks up in the final year, but no way was I wasting my time, effort and money to leave with nothing (like so many people I know who became slightly too much of a social animal!).

Would I go now? Well I was the first year of fee paying students anyway, though they were only around £1k per year back then. Now it’s really got to be taken a LOT more seriously before considering your life choice, as only a very elite minority with very rich parents are going to go to Uni and not leave financially crippled in some way.

Elfinsafety does have a good point (badly worded, and as usual resorting to name calling and being offensive at the merest hint of someone not agreeing with him) in that it shouldn’t all be about the commercial aspect. If it were, we’d ALL be doing business studies or economics degrees, and where would that lead us? Arts degrees are very relevant still, as are much more vocational degrees, as are science degrees and many of the more traditional subjects too. But it really does need to be something you WANT to do, and broaden your knowledge in.

Sadly, with that in mind, too many people still go to University with the same mindset that I had, which was “a degree is better than no degree”. And when I went, though it wasn’t free, fees were relatively small, and prospects relatively good. These days, leave without a minimum 2:1 from a good uni and your prospects are no better than if you hadn’t gone to uni, and you will end up with loads of debt whichever way you cut it.

My advice to any 18 year old right now considering going to uni, but unsure about what they wanted to do would be to wait… Time is an amazing thing. The most satisfied students I’ve ever met have all been mature students (whether starting their degree at 21, just 3 years older than the norm, or 70, or anywhere inbetween) as some time spent experiencing life and finding out a few things about yourself, before committing to Uni, can often be VERY well spent. I’d love to go back to Uni now at 30, knowing what I do about myself and my interests, and what I want to achieve. Sadly I couldn’t afford it just now… Maybe in time… And as for the OU argument, whilst I believe it is a valid learning experience for some, most of us benefit much greater from learning with our peers I believe. And the social aspect is not to be ignored either!

not leave financially crippled in some way

Crippled? The examples above are £17/mo, that’s not crippled is it?

Waiting – not a bad idea I suppose but what would I have done on leaving uni? Can’t think of a job I’d have enjoyed in my local area tbh.

“The people who were actually interested in a bit of social mobility kept their heads down and worked their asses off”

I agree. My degree allowed me to escape (sort of) my working-class background and aspire to things I dreamed of as a child e.g working in the Space Exploration business. None of that would have been possible if I had continued working at Sainsbury’s, instead of reading for a degree.

There isn’t a single Engineer in my company that does not have at least a first degree, and many have 2 or PHDs.

I know. I sort of think if you even have to ask, you’re looking at the wrong courses or the wrong institutions.

A degree in say history from a good university is worth it

A degree in engineering from a less good university is (I bet) worth it (I don’t know, I’m not an engineer)

A degree in say history from a less good university is not worth it

As in most things, it’s the grey areas in between that are difficult.