Back to the point, whether you like what the BNP/UKIP etc stand for or absolutely detest it, at least it as a clear and different choice and that is what politics needs.

In fairness, I think the political landscape would be just fine without the nazis or the diet nazis. I think they’re choices we could live without.

If theyed deport me to Vancover Island I’d vote for them.

If they would deport me to Vancover Island I’d vote form them.

The BNP gave up on the politics of hate and went for the more subtle fear of muslims instead. Voting for them doesnt make you a racist but please don’t because the party members really are.

My wife’s parents are immigrants and you couldnt hope to find a nicer pair of people anywhere on the planet. Guess that makes me a race traitor and proud of it.

trailmonkey, I am guilty as charged of unfairly bundling the BNP and UKIP in the same ascertion. There is more difference between those two than the Tories/Labour/Liberals.

I think they’re choices we could live without.

I disagree. I think politics needs more choice, not less. At least if what a party stands for is abhorent for you it makes it considerably easier to vote for an alternative. If you’ll pardon the wholly inappopriate pun 😯 I think there needs to be more black and white in politics rather than the endless shades of grey of the main parties

to elucidate on my point above – and because I’m having a more interesting time here than at work – go back 20 years to when I wanted my first mountain bike. Go into the average bike shop and there was only one type of mountain bike, albeit at different price points. Alternatively I could buy a “touring” bike or a “road bike”. All very different beasts that serve very different purposes.

Now you decide you want a mountain bike there is an endless choice of usually subtley different designs. “Do you ride downhill 37% of the time or 45% of the time? It does make a difference to which bike you choose, sir”

Same with main-party politics. It’s all in the detail at the expense of the big picture. I don’t have the inclination to dissect party manifestos so if a party can stand-out with its core values then that should be applauded regardless of if you agree with those values.

I disagree. I think politics needs more choice, not less.

So in what way is the BNP any different to any other political party ?

Eh ?

OK ……. I’ll tell you.

They are racist.

Everyone who knows the tinniest smidget about politics knows that they are RACIST.

Their party is also full of criminal thugs ………… that, makes them pretty different to other political parties.

So how exactly, is it useful, helpful, or in anyway constructive, to encourage more racist thugs into British politics?

?

😯

I don’t think stilltortoise’s bike analogy works very well. If I’d gone into a bike shop 20 years ago looking for a mountain bike, I would have found one. I wouldn’t have bought a tourer by accident unless I was dangerously confused.

Now, I can go in, and am offered a wide choice of mountain bikes. All of them are OK, althoug they are subtly different and I might accidentally get a mountain bike mildly unsuited to my precise needs. But it will still be a mountain bike not a touring bike.

Moving to the political sphere, you have a choice of centrist liberal social democratic parties to vote for. Or instead you could vote nazi, because they are clearly different to all those boring mainstream parties with their boring manifestos. Which would be like walking into a bike shop and buying a tourer when you wanted a mountain bike because the choice of a few different all mountain bikes was too confusing… 🙂

🙄

OK I give in. I’ve tried and clearly failed to make my point.

Oh no, wait, BigDummy has just made it for me, albeit it with his own flourish

And for the record – because I feel people missed it – I will NOT be voting for the BNP and I absolutely DO think they are racist. You don’t have an argument from me there. Go back, re-read my posts and now see if you can see my point. If not, then I have made it very badly indeed

Oh no, wait, BigDummy has just made it for me,

I missed the bit on how it was “useful, helpful, or in anyway constructive” to buy a tourer when you wanted a mountain bike 😕

And for the record ……….. I will NOT be voting for the BNP and I absolutely DO think they are racist.

I never thought that for a moment.

I thought you that were probably a wishy-washy, Guardian reading, middle-class, head-in-the-clouds, liberal. Who thinks that racist thugs should be given a fair crack of the whip like everyone else.

I also think that you are wrong.

As per my first post, I should not have bothered dipping my toe into this. I tried to have a sensible debate on democracy but it’s got personal so I’m off

I should not have bothered dipping my toe into this……… it’s got personal so I’m off

This is a thread about the BNP. There is something intrinsically ‘personal’ about the politics of the BNP, if don’t happen to be a white anglo-saxon.

Considering what was said, you’re a sensitive little soul. I hope you never have the misfortune of having an encounter with a BNP slope-head.

.

btw, I take it my description of where you stand was correct then ?

The analogy stretches to breaking point when you find yourself saying “I despise touring bikes and understand that their riders are idiots but will defend to the death a bike shop’s right to sell them to such idiots”, which I think is where we come out. 🙂

Out of interest ernie (and I absolutely am a Guardian reading, middle-class, head-in-the-clouds, liberal), where are you drawing your line on which people should be excluded entirely from the political process? Is it just racists? Are anti-democratic totalitarians of a racially-inclusive variety welcome?

The BNP will get alot of votes, unfortunately. Over the last twenty or so
years, it seems to me there has been a dumbing down of the general population.
When I was younger politics was as important to me and my friends, along with music, going out, whatever. I could name most of the MPs then.
Thanks to Thatcher, left or right you couldn’t help but get involved.
Now even I’d be hard pushed to name any of MPs (freeloaders).
Most of the country cares more, about Big Brother, Britain’s Talentless and Pop Tunes.
So asking them to make an informed dicision in an election, without
some idiot off Big Brother or Alan Sugar to help them, what do expect to happen?
On a lighter note, I’m with mt, I’m half Irish & a bit catholic, so I’d be happy to be deported Vancover Island or France, evan New Zealand

so i guess the answer is no one is voting for the bnp then?????????

OK I couldn’t resist another peek.

Considering what was said, you’re a sensitive little soul

Maybe I am and maybe BigDummy does a better job of making my point, even if he doesn’t entirely agree.

thought you that were probably a wishy-washy, Guardian reading, middle-class, head-in-the-clouds, liberal. Who thinks that racist thugs should be given a fair crack of the whip like everyone else.

Do I try and look at both side of an argument? Yes. Does that make me wishy washy? No. Do I read the Guardian? No. Am I middle-class? I don’t even know what it means to be middle class anymore. Give me a clue and I’ll answer that one. Head-in-the-clouds? Definitely not. Liberal? Yes I reckon there’s some of that in me. So what does that make me? Another of your stereotypes?

where are you drawing your line on which people should be excluded entirely from the political process?

Yes, where exactly?

so i guess the answer is no one is voting for the bnp then

Lots of people will vote for them, just not many on here.

stilltortoise, it’s not worth the bite. Ernie will simply argue for the sake of it and you’ll get awfully bored.

Thanks for the tip. I must admit it was interferring with work somewhat. To be fair, my wife would say I’m just as bad as Ernie on the “arguing for the sake of it” front…

Out of interest ernie (and I absolutely am a Guardian reading, middle-class, head-in-the-clouds, liberal), where are you drawing your line on which people should be excluded entirely from the political process?

As I tapped out how I perceived stilltortoise, before he stormed off in a huff because I had used words such as ‘wishy-washy’ and ‘liberal’ to describe him, I was very conscious that I was also having a dig at you BigDummy. So well done for picking that up.

“where are you drawing your line on which people should be excluded entirely from the political process“

Who said anything about ‘excluding entirely from the political process’ ?

stilltortoise, before he got the hump because I suggested that he had his ‘head-in-the-clouds’ and that he ‘read the Guardian’, was talking about encouraging and how it was a good thing to have the involvement of racist thugs in British politics. It isn’t.

How do you distinguish ‘undesirables’ from the rest in British politics ? It’s easy really. All those who preach hate. Whether it against other people’s, race, religion, sexuality …. whatever. I’m sure that you can work it out BD.

The politics of hate is not useful, helpful, or in anyway constructive.

Obvious I would have thought.

.

I like baa’s post btw.

Now even I’d be hard pushed to name any of MPs (freeloaders).

Really? Even with all the publicity they’ve been getting lately? Just off the top of my head:
Julie Kirkbride
Andrew MacKay
Margaret Moran
Anthony Steen

…though I have a feeling that lot would rather you hadn’t heard of them.

I suspect there might not be many people who won’t admit it out loud but probably will vote BNP when it comes to standing in the booth in private.

{to set the record straight that WON’T be me).

And I suspect in the North East many of those BNP voters will be lifelong Labour voters and not some hardcore rightwing conservative followers.

Alas.

Who said anything about ‘excluding entirely from the political process’ ?

You accused tortoise of believing that “that racist thugs should be given a fair crack of the whip like everyone else”. I took this to mean that you consider that racist thugs shouldn’t be allowed to stand in elections, or something. Clearly that wasn’t what you meant. 🙂

EDIT: I can distyinguish people I don’t want to vote for and are clearly mad and wrong pretty easily, and I can avoid voting for them and argue with people who are considering it, because they’re wrong and/or mad. I am not sure there is necessarily a worthwhile distinction between people who preach hate and people who preach the suppression iof individuality to the common good or the collectivisation of all property, say. I am happy to leave both groups in my “mad and wrong” category. 🙂

And you’re shouting at a lot of people who aren’t voting BNP just because they don’t share your zeal in abusing the BNP. I’m not clear what the marginal benefits of this tactic are. 😉

stilltortoise, before he got the hump because I suggested that he had his ‘head-in-the-clouds’ and that he ‘read the Guardian’, was talking about encouraging and how it was a good thing to have the involvement of racist thugs in British politics. It isn’t.

Was I? You do like to twist people’s words for your own agenda. You should be in politics. Anyway, I’m guilty of being personal myself now. You’ve baited, I’ve bitten. job done

Lots of people will vote for them, just not many on here.

Yeah, quite a few on here will imo. It’s just that it’s the sort of thing which people aren’t prepared to admit to. It’s a dirty nasty business, which people only do in the privacy of their own polling booth, well away from prying eyes.

.

stilltortoise – I will take your sensitivities into account in the future, but i’m glad that you at least you accept that you are perhaps a little over- sensitive.

Flashheart – you’re not sensitive, so I don’t mind saying it – you’re a ****.

but I like you 😉

Sadly the subtleties of sarcasm, irony, tongue-in-cheek and all those other delights of real conversation don’t transfer well to a web forum. I will get to know your web-personalities in time, and meanwhile assume that everyone is good-natured until proven otherwise 🙂

Sadly the subtleties of sarcasm, irony, tongue-in-cheek and all those other delights of real conversation don’t transfer well to a web forum

I think they do with the use of the emoticons. If they’re not present – then take it as read.

Well I’m not going to bother voting for anyone – they are all a bunch of corrupt tossers, who put themselves first and the people they are suppose to represent second.

Nothing will change no matter who gets in – a few changes to taxes to make use think we are better off and thats about it.

baa – Member

The BNP will get alot of votes, unfortunately. Over the last twenty or so
years, it seems to me there has been a dumbing down of the general population.
When I was younger politics was as important to me and my friends, along with music, going out, whatever. I could name most of the MPs then.
Thanks to Thatcher, left or right you couldn’t help but get involved.
Now even I’d be hard pushed to name any of MPs (freeloaders).
Most of the country cares more, about Big Brother, Britain’s Talentless and Pop Tunes.
So asking them to make an informed dicision in an election, without
some idiot off Big Brother or Alan Sugar to help them, what do expect to happen?

AMEN!

If they’re not present – then take it as read.

I tend not to use emoticons to show whether I’m being sarcastic, ironic, or tongue-in-cheek. It kinda of defeats the purpose. I like to give people enough credit that they can work it out.

.

😉

Hmmmmm

Time for a song what about

heartland by TheThe

Or

Root’s by show of hands

The whole system needs changing, and we can’t leave it to them.
after a few sacrificial lambs, by the time of the next general
election it’ll all be for gotten and the pigs will have their
snouts in trough again.
If you want to make a protest vote, you could always spoil the ballot
paper which has to be counted, but don’t vote for the BNP.
Remeber Hitler and his mates wore a bunch of misfits, drug addicts
sociopaths, and they started off with something like 0.1% of the vote.
Just look at the people in the BNP they are all f**king nuts.
Don’t even give them a second thought

Gerry adams and his friends were once called murderers and madmen…..

Still stoking it up ton, eh ?

.

you’re a very naughty boy ……

.

😀

ernie, only the truth….. 😀

ton – Member

Gerry adams and his friends were once called murderers and madmen…..

So was Nelson Mandela and Moshe Dayan

….and Tony Blair and George Bush.

.

no wait ……

teej, correct matey….
people change
politics never does, it is always bollox, only **** that prosper are the cheating twisting mp basterd5.
IMHO that is…. 😀