UK Government Thread

Keir Stoma’s government say they’ll build 1,500,000 new homes over the next 5 years.

That’s 822 a day.

They’ve been in a few weeks now, how’s that panning out for them?

They’re currently art 575 a day, my (probably bad) maths says they need to increase building by just over 10% a year from year two to hit the target. Doesn’t seem an impossible task.

Discussing the last governments disastrous border policy he noted that the system has been a shambles for the last decade and that the £700m spaffed on Rwanda is 10x the counter terrorism budget!!

Labour’s plan to unify the policy currently shared by 5 different departments /ministries with dedicated funding is long over due, a huge task but finally being tackled sensibly

It was identified years ago that the Home Office is completely dysfunctional and simply unfit to deal with the issue, but in line with so much else, successive Tory governments have simply ignored it, in a hope that it’ll magically clear itself up, then gone for various SQUIRREL!’ stunts like Rwanda instead of actually trying to sort it out.

They were obviously massively hobbled by the fact that – don’t mention the ‘B’ word – in 2016 they promised they’d put a stop to immigration, which has then subsequently gone through the roof on their watch. So much for ‘Taking Back Control’ eh?

Bloody hell! 5 Live have got their MPs panel on ahead of PMQ’s and Richard Tice is on it! Why do the BBC keep giving these shysters such a hugely disproportionate amount of airtime

Now all the shouty centrists have flipped to manifesto zealotry as an excuse to shout down anyone who disagrees with the path they are indicating.

It’s clear there’s always going to be an excuse every single time – even if there’s layer upon layer of contradiction.

We must scrap the inhuman Work Capability Assessments and private provision of disability assessments (e.g. ATOS), scrap punitive sanctions, two-child limit and benefits cap.

— Keir Starmer (@Keir_Starmer) February 6, 2020

rone
Full Member
The heat is for good reasons though.

Sorry rone, only quoting you as it leads into what I’m saying is all, not singling you out in anyway, mate.

I dont mind the heat of the arguments in the political threads but I really don’t like it when things get personal towards posters, whether they are people I agree with or not.

Let’s remember that to my knowledge, everyone apart from an occasional visitor to the politics thread, wants the cap gone. It’s just that some want it gone now, others accept that it might be a few months but we all want it gone.

Unfortunately, the arguing over the 5% of disagreement can get a little too personal. I don’t mind where people consider themselves on this subject or on the political spectrum itself, I read it all. There are merits in all sides of this debate. I just get a little saddened when people get frustrated to the point of personal insults.

We all have lives away from the forum and no one knows what trials and tribulations they are going through in the real world. We should all remember that and take it down a notch imo.

Anyway, that’s my sermon for today. :)

I dont mind the heat of the arguments in the political threads but I really don’t like it when things get personal towards posters, whether they are people I agree with or not.

I agree. Being called a sixth former and patronised with Monty Python memes is easy to ignore as I have a sense of humour, but I always notice that when it goes the other way we get the usual nonsense about threads ‘going down the shitter’. I guess it’s all part of the herd mentality view which is aimed squarely at silencing any left wing opinions on here but that’s fine, we sixth formers have a thick skin and can take it unlike some others ?.

Edit: FFS can someone fix the emojis?

Could you be more sexist or snobbish grimep

Misogynist, sexist. See, that’s why it’s a complete waste of time even trying to engage with people whose brains are on the political Left. Just the same old baseless name calling. All I did was copy this no-mark’s Wikipedia entry. There’s nothing woman-hating about ctrl-c, ctrl-v. And now I’m wasting my time, having to explain the very obvious as if I’m talking to a teenager.

Snobbish.. I hate Cameron and chums just as much as the union no marks.

If all you’ve got is name calling then you’ve lost the argument.

The one thing I’ll apologise for is I always have $hitloads of work to do so can’t really hang around here engaging with name calling socialists, a pointless exercise at the best of times, so i can see how that feels like trolling.

And back on topic. If anyone had any doubt about Starmer’s style of government now we know. I don’t have any real doubt that one day in the undefined future the 2CBC will be abolished, but not before Starmer can use the issue as a factional tool against any left wing MPs and so he can play the hard man at his first PMQs.

It’s quite pathetic really. We could have a serious and mature government which seeks to bring everyone together in the interests of the common good, instead we’ve got macho virtue signalling from the very top of government which prefers to play political games rather than implement policy in the interests of working class people.

As for snobbishness… Note the elitist tone taken against those “uneducated” populists, easily stirred up by the evil fascist Farage yadda yadda

If that CV landed on your desk would you hire them for anything more complex than unskilled labour?

Did it ever occur to you that excluding people based on a very limited part of their CV may be your loss not theirs?

Note the elitist tone taken against those “uneducated” populists,

I agree. It’s arrogant and patronising.

If all you’ve got is name calling then you’ve lost the argument.

Well at least you admit you have lost the argument, probably the only sensible contribution you have made

They were obviously massively hobbled by the fact that – don’t mention the ‘B’ word – in 2016 they promised they’d put a stop to immigration, which has then subsequently gone through the roof on their watch. So much for ‘Taking Back Control’ eh?

Brexit was mentioned as having been a reason for the government to deliberately block cooperation with France on border security, absolute madness!

flounce much grimep?  you posted it, but its wikipedias fault it makes you look like a sexist snob, oh dear

Rayners work as a union rep that you are so dismissive of……..

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/feb/17/working-life-union-official-unison

Rayner seems to have achieved far more in her career than most, what is it about that, that upsets you so much?

It’s funny. People like grimey go really quiet when you challenge their tripe face to face in the real world. Best not to let him/her get under your skin, I’ve met a few like him/her when I helped out at the enuresis clinic.

If anyone had any doubt about Starmer’s style of government now we know. I don’t have any real doubt that one day in the undefined future the 2CBC will be abolished, but not before Starmer can use the issue as a factional tool against any left wing MPs and so he can play the hard man at his first PMQs

The Labour manifesto was clear on this point. 7 MP’s decided they were going to rebel against a 3 line whip on a manifesto commitment less than 3 weeks into a new government. This, despite being warned very clearly what the result would be if they did. Starmer had no choice but to suspend the whip if he wanted to be taken seriously, obviously. No way would ANY new PM cave in to that, especially given his huge majority

Given that their rebellion would have no effect on the result and given the people involved – Corbynite lackeys like Wrong-Daily and Burgon – they did it as a piece of grandstanding virtue signalling and to martyr themselves alongside St Jeremy.

Its obvious that they’ve impressed the people they wanted to impress in the common room, but ultimately it was an exercise in futile posturing, which reinforces most peoples opinion of them as a bunch of placard-waving idiots who simply aren’t grown up enough to be anywhere near government. Thats best left to the adults. Good riddance!

If all you’ve got is name calling then you’ve lost the argument.

Did I really read that remark in a post written by grimep?

How about actually engaging in the arguments occasionally instead of focusing solely on throwing insults around?

So you think that Angela Rayner’s position as deputy prime minister should be challenged because she left school at 16  pregnant?

Wait until you hear that Keir Hardie left school at 10 to work down a coal mine.

The great news for you though grimep is that apart from the odd anomaly such as the one you have highlighted the Labour Party is mostly under the control and influence of the professional classes, barristers and academics, those sort of people. So that should be reassuring for you.

but not before Starmer can use the issue as a factional tool against any left wing MPs and so he can play the hard man at his first PMQs.

Really Dazh?  really?

This is nearly as daft IMO as the Don’#t worry it will all get sorted later.  the idea that Starmer is waging a factional war in the labour party does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.    He is waging a war on ill disciple.  You might agree with him or you might not but even a cursory glance at the various front be4nch appointments shows the idea its an ideologivcal war on the left is just not happening.  I have been surprised by how many from the left are on the front bench and as advisors.

What he has been getting rid of is those who prefer gesture politics and ideological purity over action

Given that their rebellion would have no effect on the result

And with that remark you completely undermine the argument that you are trying to make. The suspension of the Labour whip is nothing more than grandstanding by Starmer. It serves no other purpose.

It’s very unlikely that Tony Blair would have taken such a drastic action, quite simply because it wasn’t necessary.

kimbers

Brexit was mentioned as having been a reason for the government to deliberately block cooperation with France on border security, absolute madness!

For a government that went full on, on this issue they did pretty much everything possible to make it “worse”.

It should send as a cautionary tail on where policy dictated by ideology only leads.

the idea that Starmer is waging a factional war in the labour party does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

LOL!

the idea that Starmer is waging a factional war in the labour party does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

LOL!

actually I agree there is no war, he won that some time ago

“Corbynite lackeys”, “Wrong-Daily”, “St Jeremy”, “common room”, “placard waving idiots”.

Binners you nicely demonstrate the priorities of this govt and its supporters like yourself. Forget doing stuff that will help working people, lets just think up reasons to not do stuff because it’s ‘grown up’ and then use it as a political football to suppress any debate or opposition. Government of change and renewal my arse. This is no difference to the “govt of performance” which Starmer claimed he hated so much.

which reinforces most peoples opinion of them as a bunch of placard-waving idiots who simply aren’t grown up enough to be anywhere near government. Thats best left to the adults.

What’s grown up about supporting the cap? Spill the beans on this daft logic, regressive logic.

Where we are with Starmer and his constant shape-shifitng /lying / misrepresentation etc is now called ‘adult’ and ‘grown-up’ whereas for Johnson amd others it was pages and pages of rage filled Centrist implosion and deconstruction.

At least be consistent.

Can we all remember the Centrist buy-in of ‘let’s go with it’ and wait until they’re in power. Well they’re in power and acting like a bunch of power crazed right-wingers keen to fill the boots of the Tories. Where pragmatism of removing the cap sits below the so called broad church of the Labour party.

~Come on then – lest see this evidence that its a factional war against the left rather than giving idiots enough rope to hang themselves

i have spent far too much time as  a trade union organiser and around the various socialist splinter groups to have any sympathy with the gesture politics and ideological purity.   They have never acheived anything.  all mouth and trousers and conspiracy theories

If it was a war on the left why is Raynor in there?    Why are the two lefty advisors with a long history of criticizing Starmer in place?

What have these so called lefties ever achieved?

Government of change and renewal my arse. This is no difference to the “govt of performance” which Starmer claimed he hated so much.

What option did he have? Seriously He didn’t pick this fight. 7 MPs decided to ignore a three line whip on a manifesto commitment, less than 3 weeks into taking power. That is only going to end one way. As they well knew, hence the childish grandstanding

I don’t know if you’ve noticed but personally I’ve never seen a new government hit the ground running to this degree and be in such a hurry to enact their agenda. As most of us believe the cap will not last and I’m sure the commission on child poverty reports back, that’ll be the reason to climb down on it and also enact many other measures as part of a structured policy.

So they’ve been a bit busy and are clearly in no mood to have their legislative agenda derailed by the likes of Richard Burgon. Like I said; its just futile posturing and self-imolation from 7 palcard-waving clowns flaunting their virtues to a certain section of society, none of whom will be missed now they’ve had the whip withdrawn

actually I agree there is no war, he won that some time ago

“Some time ago” was last month?

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/06/05/in-the-uk-the-left-wing-of-the-labour-party-accuses-keir-starmer-of-a-purge_6673798_4.html

the idea that Starmer is waging a factional war in the labour party does not stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Three weeks in and one of the first real things he does is suspend the whip from left wing MPs who were voting on a point of principal that almost no one in their party or those who voted for them would disagree with. No he’s not being the slightest bit factional is he?

Those MPs were doing nothing more than representing their constituents and voting the way those constituents and voters who voted for them would expect. It says more about the MPs who didn’t vote in the same way as once again it demonstrates that representative democracy prioritises political expediency and conformity rather than the best interests of the people who are being represented.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed but personally I’ve never seen a new government hit the ground running to this degree and be in such a hurry to enact their agenda

What?

I’ve not seen it either.

My mistake you must mean the wave through of the water bill increases and some money for Ukraine.

For a government that went full on, on this issue they did pretty much everything possible to make it “worse”.

It should send as a cautionary tail on where policy dictated by ideology only leads.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00219yx

from 2hr36 in is the interview, really interesting and the point is that the smuggling networks run across borders and theres no way that can be tackled without cooperating with those outside the UK as well as properly coordinated department here.

No dazh – he suspended the whip for lack of party discipline.  He has not been purging the left – just the idiots.

Now what has this sort of futile gesture politics ever achieved?  why is there representation from the left all thru the front bench and as advisors?  I was expecting them to be purged but the reality is they have not

I’ve never seen a new government hit the ground running to this degree and be in such a hurry to enact their agenda

This thread is funny. That is exactly the sort of wild self-congratulatory comment which I would expect to come out of Donald Trump’s mouth.

Yes there have been a few very positive announcements and unfortunately a couple of not quite so positive announcements.

 he suspended the whip for lack of party discipline.

That’s exactly the point I was making. We have a representative model of democracy where we elect local MPs to represent our interests. Every single labour voter in the constituencies of those MPs would have expected them to vote in the way they did, so they represented that opinion by voting accordingly. Their reward for doing their job is to be kicked out of the parliamentary party because the leadership has other priorities driven by political expediency.

Do you want democracy or not? Because this isnt it.

Those MPs were doing nothing more than representing their constituents and voting the way those constituents and voters who voted for them would expect. It says more about the MPs who didn’t vote in the same way as once again it demonstrates that representative democracy prioritises political expediency and conformity rather than the best interests of the people who are being represented.

voting against the kings speech is voting against the governments agenda, the manifesto said that benefits would be reviewed in the budget, did it not? Their constituents voted them in on the basis of that manifesto

You lot are really never going to forgive the Labour Party for winning an election are you?

why is there representation from the left all thru the front bench and as advisors?

You do realise that cabinet members and frontbenchers often resign so that as backbenchers they can criticise the government, don’t you?

And you have heard of the tactic of dealing with the bolshi shop steward by making them a supervisor, having you?

That is exactly the sort of wild self-congratulatory comment which I would expect to come out of Donald Trump’s mouth.

It’s literally no different to when Boris claimend he’d ‘got brexit done’ and all his supporters repeated it ad infinitum even though nothing much had happened. Honestly when I look at politics in this country and the slavish parroting of the party line that the likes of binners indulges in I don’t see a lot of difference with North Korea.

You lot are really never going to forgive the Labour Party for winning an election are you?

Binners once again you betray your priorities. You only care about winning an election (as I suspect many in the PLP do too) as opposed to governing in the interests of working people. Some of us would like a Labour govt to actually govern as one rather than a pale imitation of the tories. You might be wallowing in your triumphalism, but for the millions of children who suffer from the 2CBC nothing has changed.

We could have a serious and mature government which seeks to bring everyone together in the interests of the common good, instead we’ve got macho virtue signalling from the very top of government which prefers to play political games

But surely “serious and mature” govts do exactly what Starmer’s administration  is doing now, rather than announce policy on the hoof to get headlines, they’re taking the time to make sure it’s doable, and as it’s basically a money issue, then surely the budget is the best place to announce it? As @poopscoop suggests there’s no labour MP that don’t want it scrapped and there’s no one on the thread who wants to see it retained either. All the signals from the cabinet suggest that it’ll be scrapped. I think its probably a safe bet it’s going to be scrapped.

Great thread this – always good to balance it against the similar one on PistonHeads which is virtually the complete opposite. I’d imagine the vast majority of the lumpenproletariat sits in the middle somewhere.

All the signals from the cabinet suggest that it’ll be scrapped. I think its probably a safe bet it’s going to be scrapped.

Indeed. So why suspend the whip from MPs who voted in support of something that’s going to happen anyway? Why even have a three line whip on it? It’s a pointless display of authoritarianism and political machismo. I had (small) hopes that Starmer would be true to his word of being a government of service. All this demonstrates is that he’s no different to any other party politician who came before him. And we wonder why everyone says ‘they’re all the same’.

You only care about winning an election

You are ware this is the only way to actually get anything done, right?

I and many, many others were sick to the back teeth of the alternative – claimed ‘moral victory’ consisting of losing consecutive elections, ceding power to the Tories and then sitting impotently by while pointlessly virtue-signalling to each other

Those 7 grandstanding cranks who have had the whip withdrawn last night are all the type who were clearly more comfortable with the latter

Every single labour voter in the constituencies of those MPs would have expected them to vote in the way they did,

really?  Look at on here – lots of labour voters who agree with Starmer.  got any evidence for that assertion?

have you ever actually been involved at any level?  trade unions?  Local party activism?