UK Government Thread

Squirming? What squirming? I don’t see any squirming.

There’s been a lot of jumping through hoops to defend it when they know in their hearts it’s not a good thing. And mechanically I challenge any of them to cite finances as a reason when Starmer is promising money for Ukraine – at a very basic level that is a contradiction. (3bn a year as long as it takes )

If we could zoom back to 2017 on this forum would there be support for it in the anti-Tory threads?

Another thread goes down the shitter.

The members who post prolifically to political (and other) threads are sometimes referred to as ‘big hitters’ and, typically, add nothing to any subject.

In my business experience, a big hitter is someone who delivers – usually in adverse circumstances; somewhat different to STW’s ‘big hitters’.

In reality, on STW, they are individuals like needy kids in a classroom who always want to have the last word and their contributions, despite their invariable length, add nothing to the debate.

Quoting chunks of others original works is naked plagiarism.

Time to cancel my (print & digital) membership; I’m sure one of the many voluble free loaders will now become a full member to maintain STW’s revenue stream.

Ha!

In reality, on STW, they are individuals like needy kids in a classroom who always want to have the last word and their contributions, despite their invariable length, add nothing to the debate.

No we don’t!

Ian Dunt on the benefit cap 2018.

Revealed: Two-child benefit cap hits 70,000 families https://t.co/lDW0uitQ5O

— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) June 28, 2018

Ian Dunt last month on the benefit cap.

Two-child benefit cap 'pushing women and children into poverty' https://t.co/iTrgenU0RG

— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) June 7, 2024

Ian Dunt today on the vote.

Terribly stupid. A pointless theatrical display of look-at-me conscience from the rebels. And an excessive control-freak response from the leadership. https://t.co/GmPxbrF83X

— Ian Dunt (@IanDunt) July 23, 2024

You see the issue with Centrism?

Time to cancel my (print & digital) membership; I’m sure one of the many voluble free loaders will now become a full member to maintain STW’s revenue stream.

If we score flounces that has to be a 10/10.  Don’t take it so seriously, I am sure most of us are just passing time/taking a break when at work and just enjoy the sometimes pointless arguments.  It is after all an MTB forum not a high brow political debating forum.

Be interesting to see the post numbers by days and hours within the day as I am sure most will be around 9-5 Monday to Friday.

walks in, sees the remnants of the tables and chairs from last night’s bar fight, shakes head, walks off again.

Well done chaps, you trashed the pub and like Frank I’m not sure I want to drink in it any longer.

You gotta laugh at the amateur dramatics on display

Did anyone really think the Labour government thread was going to be a consensus ?

The members who post prolifically to political (and other) threads are sometimes referred to as ‘big hitters’ and, typically, add nothing to any subject.

As well as drowning the forum in their noise.

*big shitters

Is more appropriate.

Nothing like a good early morning catch up on the f**kery bukkake in the political threads. 10/10.

I always thought the term big hitters was used ironically.

You gotta laugh at the amateur dramatics on display

Yep, wonder what happens when things that actually matter occur?

Did anyone really think the Labour government thread was going to be a consensus ?

No idea,  I certainly didn’t, but I did expect it to turn into a very limited number of posters saying the same thing over and over again driving away an unknown number of alternative contributors and viewpoints.

Relax folks. A loose coterie of ‘big hitters’ got on a roll with a positive feedback loop of borderline bullying and the result was a bit nasty.

New day, same old problems out there in the real world. And no amount of fantasy economics can sort it.

<shrugs>

Rabble: a large, noisy, uncontrolled group of people; people of low social position.

Elected on a 33% vote share and 60% turnout.

^^^^

Hehe.

Right on cue.

You can think many things about grimep, but his/her timing is pretty impeccable.

I do actually have a degree, but it’s for crayoning so probably doesn’t count, right?

Binbins, absolutely no-one is taken in by your act.

Still at it, then?

Some people might think that’s worth it – but in any case it’s more complicated than “UK should turn off the tap”.

It was Liz Kendall’s interview by Mishal Husain that resurrected that and it was a point made in the context of a “UK Government Thread”, rather than the Gaza thread

Why isn’t it possible for UK Government politicians to treat the electorate as intelligent and answer in (appropriate) depth, rather than sound as if nothing is being done now when they’ve had since (October) to think about the problem? “Not that simple…International treaties…Ongoing trade deals…Massively reduced volume since…blah, blah”

You can think many things about grimep, but his/her timing is pretty impeccable.

Thanks! But please don’t imply I’m one of the fu#k1#9 pronoun people.

Well, closer cooperation with the EU is the single biggest pain-free way to make the UK better off, but…

Thanks! But please don’t imply I’m one of the fu#k1#9 pronoun people.

I was treating you as someone whose gender I do not know. No need to flap.

Attempting to move things on…

BBC News – We don’t know how many people are having babies – and that’s a headache for schools – BBC News

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ced3e219lxzo

This is an interesting article which, as well as the immediate challenges for schools, also has a large bearing on our economy. We’ve known for some time that we have a low birth rate and an aging population. The risks to our economy of less economically active people is known, the last Govt attempted to solve it by making people work for longer. But that won’t account for all that is needed. This, to me, is where the rhetoric of the populist nonsense about immigration needs a significant challenge. Otherwise we’ll find ourselves in a bigger hole than we are now.

This, to me, is where the rhetoric of the populist nonsense about immigration needs a significant challenge.

The problem here is that you’ll need to do it in three words or less – that can fit on the side of a bus.

When the ancient Greeks came up with ‘demokratia’, they insisted that it had to be paired at the hip with education to prevent the people falling prey to easy populism. Unfortunately, I think the UK is past the tipping point on this issue.

Well I guess diverting the thread to go completely off topic and threaten flounces is one way for centrists to deal with the awkwardness of having to defend an indefensible Tory policy which was the subject of a Labour three line whip.

But back on the “UK government” topic. There appears to be a widely held view that Starmer and his advisors are playing a dangerous game with their extremely low tolerance of dissent.

New Labour and Tony Blair was notorious for its “control freakery” and yet despite that Blair was hugely relaxed about Parliamentary rebellions and took them in his stride.

Blair knew his huge majority, similar to Starmer’s, meant that he could afford to and that a bit of Parliamentary dissent is actually not a bad look. Especially when you are trying to shake off the image of having a Stalinist grip on the party.

Starmer, or more likely Morgan McSweeney, seems to take the opposite view. Unfortunately he is likely to be storing up future problems for himself as the cracks start to appear even among his centrists. As this excellent piece in the Times today by Rosie Duffield suggests

https://archive.li/2024.07.20-171757/https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/rosie-duffield-mp-two-child-benefit-cap-scncpn9dd

Unfortunately, I think the UK is past the tipping point on this issue.

As are a lot of countries.  Populist leaders know what they are doing and taking advantage of people who are not going to suddenly get educated.

One way of dealing with it is to be stricter on the nonsense parties come out with but that only goes so far as people like Farage were not working pretty much as an individual but has done a lot of damage.

When the ancient Greeks came up with ‘demokratia’, they insisted that it had to be paired at the hip with education to prevent the people falling prey to easy populism

I am not sure thats a completely accurate take on it. Although they were keen on restricting it to the right type of people there wasnt really a requirement for education unless you look at the arguments put forward by some of the philosophical schools which wasnt a city state level requirement.

Even there the approach to democracy was variable eg Plato wasnt the greatest fan although in fairness “democracy” had bumped his teacher off.

centrists to deal with the awkwardness of having to defend an indefensible Tory policy which was the subject of a Labour three line whip.

As a much hated centrist, I’m disappointed that the indefensible Tory policy is still in place and Statmer resorted to a 3 line whip, despite it being an easy win with most voters.

I also understand that if you hang your hat on costing/funding things to get elected, you have to be shown to have done that or the right wing press will make your job harder. It may be that it’s part of a wider budget package around child poverty that isn’t finalised yet, and announcing parts of it piecemeal won’t work politically for some reason I don’t understand.

Unlike some patronising know it alls on here, I at least recognise that there are many things I’m not an expert on.

awkwardness of having to defend an indefensible Tory policy which was the subject of a Labour three line whip.

What, faced with trying to force workers who can’t afford to start a family to pay for the large families of benefit dependents, while realising the dire state of the economy cannot afford such waste and largesse, the Labour government took the only possible choice? It would be completely immoral to do anything else, a rare glimpse of sanity from the commies.

But back on the “UK government” topic. There appears to be a widely held view that Starmer and his advisors are playing a dangerous game with their extremely low tolerance of dissent

This is where I think it is a very calculated risk. Essentially this cohort were always going to be the thorn in his side. But his centrist position has further marginalised the far left in the Party. He’s given them a chance to follow the manifesto, they’ve swerved it and he has said fine, I don’t need you.

If they had abstained, like a few did, this wouldn’t have happened. They would have been warned and he’s followed through with any warning.

I think the policy is rubbish, but the approach is sensible. He’s shown that he is keen to stick to the manifesto and do things appropriately. The optics of just relying on the magic money tree would look bad, despite there likely being a multiplier effect of reversing the policy. Let’s judge after a year, not after a few weeks.

At least no one can call him indecisive anymore.

But his centrist position has further marginalised the far left in the Party.

I posted a link to an opinion piece by Rosie Duffield written  in today’s Times…..he is also marginalising centrists!

The deputy prime minister’s CV:

Rayner was born and raised in Stockport, where she attended the comprehensive Avondale School. She left school aged 16 whilst pregnant and without any qualifications. She later trained in social care at Stockport College and worked for the local council as a care worker. She eventually became a trade union representative within Unison, during which time she joined the Labour Party.

Hmm. That’s the second highest ranking minister. Oh well.. socialism.

What, faced with trying to force workers who can’t afford to start a family to pay for the large families of benefit dependents

A lot of those “benefit dependents” are workers?  Its just we are subsidising their employers to not pay a living wage.

In addition circumstances change. If you get laid off and can only find a low paying job then what are you supposed to do with that third kid?

I also understand that if you hang your hat on costing/funding things to get elected, you have to be shown to have done that or the right wing press will make your job harder

The King’s Speech contained significant financial commitments which have been made ahead of spending reviews. I guess they were judged to be more important than the benefit cap.

“Hmm. That’s the second highest ranking minister. Oh well.. socialism.”

I know I shouldn’t engage the below bridge dweller, but just wondering whether they need to be called out on misogyny, elitism or just plain nastiness?

Keir Stoma’s government say they’ll build 1,500,000 new homes over the next 5 years.

That’s 822 a day.

They’ve been in a few weeks now, how’s that panning out for them?

If those in the common room will allow discussion of any other subjects than endlessly banging on about their hobby horse de jour…

Its Starmers first PMQ’s today. That should be an interesting dynamic.

i doubt the Ridhi’s good grace of last week will last and it’ll be a return to the peevish head boy but apparently one of the Reform lot have got a question. I presume that’ll be about Starmer ‘flooding the country with immigrants’ or some similar guff.

I normally stick it on the radio while I’m working, but I think I’ll watch this one today, if only to see how the little fella deals with the reality of his demotion to the opposition benches. I really can’t see him sticking it out until November, with California calling over the summer

“whether they need to be called out”

Say what you like. If that CV landed on your desk would you hire them for anything more complex than unskilled labour?

And in her case, appalling bad on paper, appallingly bad in reality. So there’s no calling out to be done. Crayons is appalling bad. It’s a fact.

Hmm. That’s the second highest ranking minister. Oh well.. socialism.

Yes we should all doff our caps for the Eton educated millionaires that did such a spiffing job of running things for the last decade plus, your hero deadbeat dad Johnson fathered how many illegitimate kids and abandoned them?

Could you be more sexist or snobbish grimep?

That rayner was a care worker, one of the hardest jobs in the country, learnt to sign, studied part time at college to get her nvq whilst raising a child on her own and then rising up to become the most senior union rep, for the whole of the north West, before being elected an MP despite relentlessly snobbery from the rw press …says that she’s got more determination and capability than most.

Anyway revelatory interview on R4 today firmer head of counter terrorism

Discussing the last governments disastrous border policy he noted that the system has been a shambles for the last decade and that the £700m spaffed on Rwanda is 10x the counter terrorism budget!!

Labour’s plan to unify the policy currently shared by 5 different departments /ministries with dedicated funding is long over due, a huge task but finally being tackled sensibly

He’s shown that he is keen to stick to the manifesto and do things appropriately.

Although before the election the manifesto was meant to be just minimise he “right wing attacks” and stuff not in the manifesto was going to be done anyway. Now all the shouty centrists have flipped to manifesto zealotry as an excuse to shout down anyone who disagrees with the path they are indicating.

@brokenbanjo interesting article that. Agreed re the problems of a more nuanced debate on the need for migration.