UK Government Thread

80% of the public are against lifting the cap.

Really?  any evidence to back that up?

Aye right.  Starmer and Reeves have picked a ridiculous hill to die on.

You’ve definitely got this the other way round

7 MPs just voted against something in the manifesto they were elected on <3 weeks ago

And yes the 2child cap is ridiculous punishment of the poorest families and I’ll bet it’s effectively scraped in the budget

Wow, clearly a lot of people in here who don’t quite understand politics.

Thanks for enlightening us with your wisdom.

EDIT. Three line whip yet 40 something Labour abstains….hardly screams party discipline.

Oh, I often forget that everyone not to the left of Jeremy Corbyn is a Nazi

Nah, just a bunch of people who think it’s better to scrap something that makes children go hungry, rather than getting all tumescent* over a strong man act.

* You’d know what that meant if you’d been to college.

The Tories didn’t do this and they all lost all authority. It’s basic politics.

If you are going to lecture people on “basic politics” you could at least get the facts vaguely right.

The tories under Johnson actually went full tilt for expelling the unbelievers in the glorious leader and it really didnt help them.

Politics isn’t getting everything you want all the time,

Well **** me sideways with an epileptic hedgehog its so handy that a political genius like you is here to explain the basics to us.

However whilst you are doing so can you start with explaining exactly how Starmer is blocked from choosing to change the policy? Remind me when the next **** election is? How exactly would he be punished for this? Bonus marks if you can manage sixth form politics essay standards about how it is easy to make the changes early.

I know its hard defending hard right policies but try for **** sake rather than simply announcing anyone who disagrees simply isnt up to your level of genius.

80% of the public are against lifting the cap.

That’s a very, uhhh, specific number.

Anyone who defies a three line whip to vote against their own government must be suspended

That’s not true. There are a variety of possible outcomes. They didn’t have to be suspended or didn’t have to be suspended for so long. A 24 hour suspension would have been enough of a spanking for the rebels to make their point without lasting consequences. Now they’re going to be determined to be the awkward squad forever.

But in any case – it wouldn’t have killed the PLP not to have the vote whipped. Or only lightly whipped. They still would have won and it would have been possible to avoid a confrontation of this scale so early in the life of the parliament.

Newsnight is well worth a watch tonight for the incredible bravery of new Labour MP Natalie Fleet talking about being groomed and raped at 15, and violence against women and girls. She’s detailing what Labour are going to do to support rape victims and prosecute offenders

its really moving to watch

These are exactly the people we need in government

Wow, new Labour MP for #Bolsover, @NatalieFleet, is amazingly brave. She's talking about being groomed by an older man who made her pregnant at 15 yo

She is a superb advocate for women & strong voice against grooming & sexual violence #Newsnight pic.twitter.com/7Wg6NBJEJZ

— Cass Blakeman ✍️? ? #FBPE ?? ? #SOSNHS ?✊ (@WistfulCass) July 23, 2024

That’s a very, uhhh, specific number.

Oddly enough the only survey I could find came in at 60% Unless you only count tory and farage plc voters which does hit the 80%.

80% of the public are against lifting the cap.

Really?, are you sure it’s not 79%….could be 8%……..perhaps 32%……..personally I like the sound of 27%.

And yes the 2child cap is ridiculous punishment of the poorest families and I’ll bet it’s effectively scraped in the budget

sop why is it not being scrapped now?  Its an easy thing to do, it will cost a small ampunt and it will immediately help raise children out of poverty

so why not do it now?

* You’d know what that meant if you’d been to college.

I do actually have a degree, but it’s for crayoning so probably doesn’t count, right?

I don’t do big words, but then maybe that’s a blessing as I don’t generally feel that would make me somehow superior to everyone else, in a sneering and condescending way

You crack on though. It’s really impressive

*swoons*

If Labour can’t show willing on something so simple, so easy and so straight forward then what precedent is it setting?

After 14 years in opposition Labour:

? Won’t build HS2 to Manchester

? Won’t scrap 2 child benefit cap

? Won’t recognise Palestine

? Won’t do Leveson 2

? Won’t end local govt cuts

✅ Have announced several new quangos which require a masters degree to understand

— Aaron Bastani (@AaronBastani) July 23, 2024

An embarrassment of a party. But it doesn’t surprise me.

Government minister Jacqui Smith suggests spending £3bn to scrap the two child benefit cap & lift 500,000 kids out of poverty would trash the economy.

Whereas spending £3bn on weapons for Ukraine doesn't, I guess. pic.twitter.com/aDnTNnd0xT

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) July 22, 2024

Brainless commentary from Jacqui Smith.

Inept. Economically illogical.

Well I wasn’t expecting abuse but seems to be the way of politics on social media.

Not letting me edit my post so I can clarify it was “only” 60%. Please accept my humble apologies for not fully agreeing with you all. But 80/60, still the same outcome.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50140-public-support-retaining-the-two-child-benefit-limit-as-starmer-gears-up-for-first-rebellion

I shan’t read any further comments as I don’t put up with being mocked, so enjoy the rest of your time here.

The lifting of the 2 child cap when finances permitted was the manifesto pledge. Labour are just following this. I am pretty convinced it will be lifted as soon as it can be. Ironic tho’ that Braverman (lols), the Corbynites and SNP are united in opposition to this. Just needs Reform to join to be the full set of opportunists.

I agree with the 6th form analogy for the 7 that have been suspended. 2 weeks ago they were campaigning on that manifesto.

This is why I’m not a Labour voter or supporter anymore. The feel good start period is definitely over.

After 2 weeks?? Right OK…… Labour Achievements under Starmer after 2 weeks….

Appoint Richard Timpson as prisons minister, Richard Hermer as Attorney General (Soz Ems), Patrick Valance as Minister of Science. People who genuinely understand their field.
End the Rwanda scheme, Close the Bibby Stockholm prison ship
Announce an ambitious house building programme
Announce the formation of GB Green Energy
End the ban on on-shore windfarms
Promise an extra 40,000 appointments and operations a week in England
Open new negotiations with Junior Doctors
Start recruitment of a new leader for the new Border Security Command (BSC) (lols)
Reset the relationship with European partners
Call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza (Meet with both Palestinian and Israeli leaders)
Announce the appointment of a Covid corruption commissioner
Prevent MPs taking on second jobs that dont benefit their consituants (eg lobbying jobs)

Labour Achievements under Corbyn (and MacDonald, Long Bailey, Burgon and the rest of the cwazy gang) in 5 years;

.
.
.
.
.
(moral victory)

As for todays back slapping SNP & Stephen Flynn. The GE result was just the start.  Until the SNP sort out their governance and move on from 2014 and try and appeal to all the no voters they will continue to decline, and get slaughtered in the MSP elections.

@rone I’m fairly convinced that I know your politics and nature fairly well, so a word of caution on Bastani….. he’s gone flirting with fascism on some of the stuff he’s putting out there these days. Of course not that post that you’ve shared, but there’s some very bad stuff on immigration etc.

@j4mie you charge headlong into the thread saying that most posters know nothing about politics. Then cry when people push back. Well, cheers again for your enlightening contributions.

So if the 2 child cap is unaffordable now what makes you think it will suddenly become affordable in the budget which is 8 months away?  Or do you mean the spending review at some point before that?  Given the pledges made so far its not going to be affordable then either

Well I wasn’t expecting abuse but seems to be the way of politics on social media.

I would suggest if you dont want abuse then you shouldnt start by hurling abuse at others.

Read what you wrote about others “don’t quite understand politics.” and “ranting on social media” and so on and it might explain why you got the response you did. Its frankly binneresque.

I’m fairly convinced that I know your politics and nature fairly well, so a word of caution on Bastani….. he’s gone flirting with fascism on some of the stuff he’s putting out there these days. Of course not that post that you’ve shared, but there’s some very bad stuff on immigration etc.

I’ve followed many commentators over the years including Bastani. I don’t agree with everything he says at all.

I’ve seen little evidence of what you are suggesting with all due respect.

Well I wasn’t expecting abuse but seems to be the way of politics on social media

You get used to it. There’s a little pack of lefty hyenas on here who get together and pile on to anyone who disagrees with them.

They clearly have righteousness on their side – something bestowed on them through their sanctimonious idealogical purity or something

They come on here to competitively virtue signal to each other. Apparently it’s a thing. Kids nowadays eh?

Ironic tho’ that Braverman (lols), the Corbynites and SNP are united in opposition to this

And yet it is the supporters of the glorious leader Starmer who are getting into bed with a hard right tory policy. So crack **** on.

The lifting of the 2 child cap when finances permitted was the manifesto pledge. Labour are just following this. I am pretty convinced it will be lifted as soon as it can be.

It could be lifted tomorrow.  it should have already gone by now.  so its not going to be lifted “as soon as it can be” because they have made a political decision not to do so  If its unaffordable now then what is going to change to make it affordable at any point in the future?

But in any case – it wouldn’t have killed the PLP not to have the vote whipped. Or only lightly whipped. They still would have won and it would have been possible to avoid a confrontation of this scale so early in the life of the parliament.

The kings speech is the programme for government, they voted against the manifesto they were elected on just 3 weeks ago….

If they didn’t support the manifesto why campaign on it?

Until the SNP sort out their governance and move on from 2014 and try and appeal to all the no voters they will continue to decline, and get slaughtered in the MSP elections.

I’m not sure about that. By the time they roll around, Scottish voters might think the General Election was enough of a punishment for the SNP, and Labour isn’t quite as shiny in (UK) government as it was in (UK) opposition. And at the risk of being repetitive – Anas Sarwar can’t pull off the Upright and Rigorous routine that Kier Starmer could.

But anyway, all of that is off topic for this thread…

Not the out of context ideological purity argument, again. Sigh.

Meaningless.

Back in the real world

So if the 2 child cap is unaffordable now what makes you think it will suddenly become affordable in the budget which is 8 months away?

Well exactly -because Labour are making stuff up about the economy and how it functions.

The government doesn’t wait for money, can you imagine a system like that?

Did they wait for money for COVID or just spend it? Lmfao.

Ultimately doesn’t matter because when their planning reforms basically do nothing (other than move money to developers) and their lack of spending under performs for growth – then we can all talk about magic growth fairy in pragmatic terms.

Aye right. Starmer and Reeves have picked a ridiculous hill to die on.

So 3 weeks in they have defended an abhorrent tory policy, faced a significant rebellion ( 40 abstentions make it so)   Peed off everyone who worked in child poverty.  Ignored the actual evidence and lost a lot of goodwill.  why?  It just makes no sense.

None of you can defend retaining this piece of performative cruelty

And yet it is the supporters of the glorious leader Starmer who are getting into bed with a hard right tory policy. So crack **** on.

Yes – bet we could go through posts and see them screaming with anger when the Tories put it out there.

Rage filled posts about poverty and how disgusting the Tories are.

Now it’s ideological purity apparently .

And yet it is the supporters of the glorious leader Starmer who are getting into bed with a hard right tory policy. So crack **** on.

But thats not the manifesto pledge is it? And it was introduced in 2017, so if Corbyn hadnt been such a dick and un-electable, there might have been a labour gov’t in power (they had two chances and even lost to the known liar Johnson!) to reverse it before the financial crash caused by covid, the Truss budget, and the cost of living thing.  But if you need to tanty please do crack on & write off Starmer 2 weeks in.

Not the out of context ideological purity argument, again. Sigh.

Yup with bonus points for whining about people being nasty to him despite him hurling abuse at others. Its not surprising that he leapt to the defence of someone who showed the same gammon like tendencies of wanting to hand out insults but not take it.

It is odd how his arguments so closely match the gammons given his seeming hatred of them.

Well I wasn’t expecting abuse but seems to be the way of politics on social media

You get used to it. There’s a little pack of lefty hyenas on here who get together and pile on to anyone who disagrees with them.

They clearly have righteousness on their side – something bestowed on them through their sanctimonious idealogical purity or something

They come on here to competitively virtue signal to each other. Apparently it’s a thing. Kids nowadays eh?

I mean the gaslighting is just off the charts here!

to reverse it before the financial crash caused by covid, the Truss budget, and the cost of living thing

There is no technical reason why they can’t afford it. None. Zip.

It’s just a choice. It’s also peanuts in the grand scheme of the economy. And they want growth well this sort of things feeds into growth. Just like money into the NHS.

Doesn’t matter, Labour are heading towards a big fat fail of a party unless something comes out of the hat.

Still time for them to stop with this nonsense.

a word of caution on Bastani….. he’s gone flirting with fascism

Really? Where?

I can’t stand his work, and his recent-ish piece on George Galloway (Bastani wouldn’t vote for him, but only because he discovered his intolerant views on LGBTQ+ issues. Really? Not the decades of grifting or apologetics for awful people or dodgy practices around “charities”?) was very eyeroll-worthy. But I haven’t seen any signs of fascist sympathies.

Wow, clearly a lot of people in here who don’t quite understand politics.

I’m sorry… My irony meter is going crazy right now! You’re going to have to clarify your position of authority for me so that I can understand your position here…

I shan’t read any further comments as I don’t put up with being mocked, so enjoy the rest of your time here.

Or maybe, and quite predictably… NOT!

Starmer will  probably get shut of it next week now the vote has served its purpose… getting rid of the last of magic grandads disciples.

They can join him in backbench, placard-waving irrelevance.

Their spiritual home

Also willing to bet that it wouldn’t take @cougar or any other forum mods very long to unearth historic evidence of your undying loyalty to said placard waving irrelevants either…

FWIW, I really don’t have strong views either way about this 2 child cap… That certainly puts me in a minority here, but there are arguments both for and against that have relevance, and I don’t think lifting it will have the desired effect of lifting hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty in the way that its undying supporters think it would… But I have a real issue with Starmer’s Johnson-esque heavy hand regarding dissenting voices, and believe that it will come back to bite him in the arse much sooner than later!

It might only be the likes of Long-Bailey, Burgon and Zultana right now, but when it’s far more prominent Labour MP’s who have already swallowed more of Starmer’s highly questionable right wing authoritarianism than they should have ever had to, start rebelling too…? There’s a great many Labour MP’s that are far more closely aligned with the current Green Party than they are with Starmer’s version of Labour, and they won’t stay silent forever!

You get used to it. There’s a little pack of lefty hyenas on here who get together and pile on to anyone who disagrees with them.

You’ve got a predictably short memory… I can certainly remember not that long ago (certainly, eBikes were already quite a thing, and 26″ wheels were long dead on new bikes) that you were the self appointed chief “lefty hyena” on this forum…

I do actually have a degree

Binners if it’s any consolation I have never been taken in by your pasty-eating proper working-class geezer STW persona, TBH I doubt many people have.

I think you were probably set a trap which you walked into. “Binners proclaims he has a degree shocker”

I’ll somewhat retract my post about Bastani….I’ve got a conversation on my phone with a pal talking about a couple of GB News vids that we’d thought were far right in tone and content. I cannot for the life of me now find them. Apologies.

mboy – for me its partly the symbology of it and partly the fact that while it would not solve child poverty it would give poor families with 3 or more kids an immediate cash boost that would be significant.

its also quite funny watching those who will not criticize Starmer squirm as the retention of this policy is indefensible

its also quite funny watching those who will not criticize Starmer squirm as the retention of this policy is indefensible

This.

Centrism is not really about solutions and comes undone very quickly.  It wants to attack conservatism and support it at the exact same time which leads to things like this.

Blimey, it’s all got a little heated tonight!

I’ll check back in tomorrow, well today now.

its also quite funny watching those who will not criticize Starmer squirm as the retention of this policy is indefensible

Squirming? What squirming? I don’t see any squirming.

The centrists seem to be very comfortable pushing the official Labour line on the issue…..They hate the child benefit cap, of course they do, who wouldn’t hate such an unfair Tory policy? Unfortunately the Tories have left the economy in such a state that Labour can’t do anything about it right now. But don’t worry, as soon as they can scrap it they definitely will.

The heat is for good reasons though.

A few of us want to see some change.

This would have been a decent place to start.

I admit despite even with all my public finance discussion – that Labour will have a battle on when it comes to spending. They will get slammed about it.

But they need to fight this. The evidence is strong enough to argue the mechanics.

It’s the same with the Democrats – they seem to want to make excuses for their decisions – whereas the Republicans and Tories just do what they want.

If only Starmer used his authority for the good stuff.