UK Government Thread

Sorry for bothering to correct someone with some actual facts.

(I don’t know if it’s been said – but a Sole Trader is not the same as a Ltd Company but both can be in the form of one person or a small business. Either way corp tax applies to the company – and sole traders pay income tax/N.I on profits.)

Personally having gone through both – I reckon they’re very close in Tax liablity now.

They have always been clear about borrowing to invest in infrastructure

That’s an accounting fudge anyway – same pot, front pocket back pocket trick. Like lots of government accounting

The trick is as follows. If government spend on ‘investment’, that goes into the CDEL pot (capital). About 85% of whatever government spends on that will come back as tax, but you can pretend it is all borrowing. The rest of spending (current spending) goes into the RDEL (resource) pot. Again about 85% of whatever is spent there will come back as tax, but you can pretend it is 100% tax by reallocating the tax that comes back from CDEL spending. That’s how you get current spending balanced by taxation. Once you realise what the trick is you can see they can spend whatever they want and as long as enough of it is marked as ‘investment’ their silly rules are met

Cleverley knocked out of tory leadership race. Starmer just got very lucky (again)!

Not sure how a Tory party moving rightwards will pan out for him… probably an easier job at the dispatch box (as Tories look even less ready to govern for all) but perhaps a harder time at the polls (assuming Reform support moves to the Conservatives).

Talking of shifting to the right… the little group of anti-Labour “left wing” MPs in parliament just voted against VAT on school fees with the right wing opposition.

FFS…

Cleverley knocked out

WTAF, only this morning he was being touted as the favourite. Badenoch or Jenrick? that’s who the choice is between? Madness

Talking of shifting to the right… the little group of anti-Labour “left wing” MPs in parliament just voted against VAT on school fees with the right wing opposition.

Which of them is anti Labour?

Which of them is anti Labour?

Ayoub Khan, Adnan Hussain and Shockat Adam all stood against incumbent Labour MPs and beat them. Iqbal Mohamed’s seat was new, but the area was solidly Labour before they stood.

Blimey… just checking… and the LibDems voted with them (and the Tories & Reform) as well! Rightward ho…

The Green Party MPs voted with the government though. As did most of the MPs who were elected as Labour and are currently suspended. Constructive.

EDIT : Plaid Cymru voted with the government as well. An interesting division.

Have any of them stated the reason they voted against the amendment?

For me it is a bit of window dressing legislation, not one of the important things that needed doing early in this parliament, but not something I would have expected to be voted against.

Two of the “Independent Alliance” MPs spoke in the debate… I’ll paraphrase… “people just above minimum wage making sacrifices to send their kids to good schools”. The background, I assume, is that there are a lot of independent fee paying Muslim schools in their constituencies.

I missed the LibDem contributions entirely.

EDIT : A quick search to find the LibDem position in the election campaign came up with… https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/05/lib-democrats-oppose-labour-private-school-vat-hike-why/

As above, it’ll be due to the number of constituents who send their kids to Islamic schools in the area, overall i’m not 100% behind this legislation, i think there’s several different types of schools that’ll be caught in this, like the winter payment, it’s going to have people losing who shouldn’t be, not sure how they work that, hopefully via monitoring and amending where necessary to try and reduce any real impact.

Whilst I agree with argee up to a point, isn’t the lack of VAT due to their charitable status, or have I got that wrong? Two things: why should they have charitable status – should that be the case. And the obvious one, there are alternatives, the local authority provides them, why can’t they send their kids there?

No, charitable status gives some schools other tax advantages. The VAT exemption is a separate thing (more akin to VAT free kids clothes etc) for everyone paying school fees. Because “education is an essential”… but I agree with you, join in the state education system… if you choose not to, well fair enough, but no tax breaks for you.

Thread has died

kerley

Maybe those previous supporters/apologists for Starmers poor decisions have realised that they backed the wrong horse unless they are just waiting to come back to thread in 3 years time to say I told you so after Starmer has emerged as a progressive hero.

I can’t speak for other posters if course, only myself. I dont post in the thread as much as I did pre election because I’ve largely got what I voted for. So for me the thread isn’t the cathartic pressure release valve I once needed.

The key word there is, “largely”. I’m ambivalent towards means tested WFP and was frustrated by the gifts mess. Overall though, I like the direction of travel and “nirvana” was never on the ballet paper. I am also in a bit of a holding pattern till the budget as I suspect many on here are. There’ll be more issues of substance to discuss/argue about then. Lol

Anyway, that’s where I am at.

Can’t lie, the recent interviews with Boris over his book renewed my contempt for the last government and further validated my choice of voting Labour. I mean, thank God they are gone, thank God.

Ayoub Khan, Adnan Hussain and Shockat Adam all stood against incumbent Labour MPs and beat them. Iqbal Mohamed’s seat was new, but the area was solidly Labour before they stood.

Thanks. I don’t think any of them are former Labour politicians.

No, the former Labour politicans all voted with the government. Well, those that were there. One notable absence (who is in an alliance with those four who voted with the right wing opposition).

No, the former Labour politicans all voted with the government. Well, those that were there. One notable absence (who is in an alliance with those four who voted with the right wing opposition).

I’m sure you’re trying to make a point so why not just come out and say it? From my perspective, I’m not sure why one would expect independent MPs to be aligned with the government’s view.

Because these independents claim to be left wing, and for the working class, but are voting to keep a tax break for those who choose to pay to send their kids to private schools… unlike the Green Party, Labour MPs, PC, SDLP and those MPs currently without the Labour whip. I find it interesting that they’re voting with the Tories and Reform on this. And even more interested/surprised at the LibDems…  I know they are looking to replace the Conservatives, but hadn’t realised they were taking this angle.

^^ Only just caught up on this and I agree, surprised at the Indy’s and Libdems vote on this. More so the Libdems.

Because these independents claim to be left wing, and for the working class, but are voting to keep a tax break for those who choose to pay to send their kids to private schools…

I don’t know much about them other than their pro-Palestinian views.

So they’re not left wing? I think you might be right. What is their “alliance” grouping in the UK parliament about then?

I wonder if the Indy’s voted against Labour was simply not to be seen voting with Labour?

Total conjecture on my part I must add.

IFS – Labour needs £25bn a year in tax rises to rebuild public services, warns IF

Can you see what I mean about these ridiculous institutions?

They are a pain in the backside and cause chaos particularly amongst the headlines and ill-equipped journos.

The government and its various departments are better placed than anyone to decide what we need. (You elect a political party based on their likely choices right?)

And more to the point this headline is false. They don’t need anything from taxation – the mechanism by which Rachel Reeves can do what she needs to  exists already without tax rises and without the IFS pointing literal shit out.

Of course if the government wants to raise taxes it can.  But independent bodies don’t really serve us like the newspapers and the TV say they do.

They muddy the water, aren’t accountable and talk about finances like the government can’t create money.

I wonder if the Indy’s voted against Labour was simply not to be seen voting with Labour?

That thought did cross my mind, they are really single issue MP’s, I looked at one of their voting records, so far he seem to be mainly voting against the government but not always, so not a clear picture yet.

So they’re not left wing? I think you might be right. What is their “alliance” grouping in the UK parliament about then?

Please don’t attribute an opinion to me that I haven’t expressed and do not hold. Like I said, I don’t know much about them, and note only that characterizing their votes as anti-Labour is speculation on your part.

It was just two independents, Iqbal Mohamed and Ayoub Khan, who voted against the vat on school fees, the “alliance”  of independents didn’t as a group vote against the measure.

I don’t know why they voted against it but I am ‘guessing’ that it was because they felt it would affect private islamic schools, I think there is more than one in Iqbal Mohamed’s constituency.

And no, they are probably not very left-wing. I don’t think that Iqbal Mohamed was previously involved in politics and until this year I believe Ayoub Khan was a member of the Liberal Democrats – I don’t why he left as the LibDem stance on Gaza is actually quite good, imo.

characterizing their votes as anti-Labour is speculation on your part

The stood at the last election to unseat Labour MPs. And their campaigns were very anti-Labour.

It was just two independents, Iqbal Mohamed and Ayoub Khan, who voted against the vat on school fees

I’m afraid that’s wrong. Four of the five in the “Independent Alliance” voted with the Tories. The ones I named. Check the voting record. The fifth, Corbyn, didn’t vote at all.

I’m afraid that’s wrong. Four of the five in the “Independent Alliance” voted with the Tories. The ones I named

Fairy nuff, I didn’t see your post, my comment was based on what I thought I read in the Independent. I’ll dig it out later and read it again.   : thumb:

Two of them spoke in the debate, it’s probably that. See my other post above.

I’m liking new laws being introduced, reforming labour laws that are objectively crap.

No, they aren’t perfect and wont be introduced for two years but it’s another step in the right direction.

The Mail will obviously spin it as the unions controlling Labour but frankly… who cares?

What they are introducing is good, I am disappointed that there is no roll back on anti union laws.

The stood at the last election to unseat Labour MPs. And their campaigns were very anti-Labour.

Other MPs ran against Labour who subsequently supported the VAT levy on school fees.

I asked the question about vat on school fees on a Muslim dominated local WhatsApp group, and the reply I got was that it was down to support for islamic schools and nothing else. Although I couldn’t find anyone who thought voting against vat on fees was a good idea.

MSP
Full Member
What they are introducing is good, I am disappointed that there is no roll back on anti union laws.

Agreed, hopefully that changes in the future.

Interesting article imo :

https://archive.li/2024.10.10-110328/https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2024/10/why-labour-shouldnt-rejoice-at-badenoch-vs-jenrick

John McDonnell eat your heart out!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/10/rachel-reeves-capital-gains-tax-rise-budget

Wow, yet another guardian article with zero actual information or evidence, just conjecture, funnily enough they only quote the IFS, which was being ridiculed earlier in this thread (a few pages back) as being useless.

Have all those wealthy non-doms buggered off yet, to avoid paying their fair share? No? Thought not.

Income should be taxed the same, whether that income is earned through hard work or asset inflation. Get on with raising CGT to IT+NI levels, and ignore the squealing wealthy.