UK Government Thread

Trying desperately and repeatedly to keep an inconsequential week-old argument alive doesn’t sound like very normal behaviour to me

It may not be normal behaviour but it seems par for the course on any thread here that has a significant political aspect.

I’ve had enough of silly buggers for a while

Just dip in when you’ve got something to say, say it have a look at what others are saying and leave it at that. Sometimes people post intersting stuff but there’s not need to comment, sometimes they post crap but there’s no need to comment on that either. There are a couple of people who often post stuff I agree with and there’s no point repeating. But sometimes I chip in to contribute or test ideas.

I’m intrigued by the Alli-Starmer dirt you speak of, theotherjonv. I think I made my views on Alli clear back around page 50, Starmer is dumb to be so close to someone so rich and “generous”, gay or straight or whatever.

I follow a number of ‘alternative view’ channels on twitter, and a couple of them – in fairness probably all the same source in the end – are saying that there’s another big scandal to break, and that Starmer could be gone as soon as mid of next week. Another one with Lord Alli, apparently. Anyone else seen anything similar?

I can’t believe for a moment that Starmer is at any risk of being forced to resign next week. Wardrobegate wasn’t a great look for Starmer  but it was hardly the beginning of the end for him. It was just a very bad PR exercise which exposed his personal greed for all to see and allowed people to claim “they are all the same”. I can’t imagine any further revelations mortally wounding him even if they do him no favours.

The only way Starmer might be forced to resign next week imo is if it was revealed that he engaged in clear illegal activity, and there is absolutely no way that the former DPP would be foolish enough to have done that.

I personally don’t expect Starmer to last the full five years but I expect his downfall to political rather than scandal related. Someone is probably just shit-stirring, and there is currently a power struggle going on among the party’s apparatchiks.

I personally don’t expect Starmer to last the full five years but I expect his downfall to political rather than scandal related.

I would go for he will be standing.

Labour, unlike the tories, are pretty rubbish at getting rid of their leaders outside of a GE loss. It could be argued Blair is an example where it happened but I would argue he could have fought Brown and won but instead looked at the death spiral of votes and decided to beat Enoch Powell and quit before his political career ended in failure.

The fighting is about who can influence him vs who will replace him.

Labour, unlike the tories, are pretty rubbish at getting rid of their leaders outside of a GE loss.

To be fair the Tories have only removed Tory PMs when they have been in extreme political crises and they have been the primary cause, when was the last time that a Labour PM has faced an extreme political crisis for which they were responsible?

Personally I don’t see Starmer as being of the same political calibre as say Brown, Blair, Callaghan, or Wilson. I don’t think that he will cope well when faced with the inevitable crisis which visits every Prime Minister. I could be wrong but that’s my opinion – I don’t think that Starmer is a very good politician, there is no evidence of that, just that he has been an extraordinarily lucky one.

when was the last time that a Labour PM has faced an extreme political crisis for which they were responsible?

The obvious example would be Corbyn (lets leave aside whether it meets that criteria and assume it does which it did for the labour mps) where the labour MPs did all they could to give him the boot.

With the tory system it would have been far harder for the party members to save the leader.

I’m not sure why Corbyn would be the obvious example as he was never PM and as you point out Labour, unlike the Tories, are pretty rubbish at getting rid of their leaders outside of a GE loss.

Although I would go further and say that Labour are rubbish at giving their leaders the boot and forcing them to resign full stop. When was the last time that happened?

I think Starmer will probably turn out to be an exception because I personally believe that he is the least gifted postwar Labour PM, but  we shall see. I haven’t yet seen the cunning and shrewd politician in Starmer, although obviously he might yet emerge and dazzle me.

Although I would go further and say that Labour are rubbish at giving their leaders the boot and forcing them to resign full stop. When was the last time that happened?

So you agree labour arent great at giving their leader the boot regardless of whether they are PM or not?

I am simply suggesting that being PM gives an extra layer of protection vs someone who is leader in opposition. So given that I would argue he is safe unless something really dodgy appears.

So you agree labour arent great at giving their leader the boot regardless of whether they are PM or not?

Oh yeah definitely. And yes obviously being PM massively strengthens Starmer’s hand. I just personally think that none of that will be sufficient to save him. He’s got to where he is far more through good luck than being a formidable politician. He got a landslide with the smallest share of the vote of any winning PM, how lucky is that ffs?

But maybe I am underestimating him. We shall see.

I would see a risk for Starmer as leader is how fed up his own MPs get of him and his nonsense. As MPs are whipped more and more on things they really don’t agree with as Labour MPs (quite a number of them must actually be ‘real’ Labour?) a movement will build against him or he will simply have to had removed the whip from the majority of his MPs and then not be able to get anything through.

If I was a Labour MP I would be pretty pissed of with him so far and would happily be going against him.

Well here’s a bit of good news for Labour……it looks like Keir Starmer’s meeting with Donald Trump was quite a success and very worthwhile.

We just all need to keep out fingers crossed the great Donald Trump gets elected in US don’t we.

You guys do remember Labour just had a landslide victory at the election and have a massive majority in parliament, you’re talking as if we’re months away from an election and MPs are panicking about their position, like earlier this year with tory MPs?!

“landslide” meaning lowest winning vote share in 100y…

I’ve had enough of silly buggers for a while

Just dip in when you’ve got something to say, say it have a look at what others are saying and leave it at that.

In fairness, that was at me as much as accusations at others (Ernie and Ransos mainly) – this is going to sound Edinburgh, but it was deliberate and self aware of what a prick I was making of myself, but also annoyance at – let’s call it ‘debating styles’ and then leave it at that. I did say before I was frustrated and had had enough of here and then thought **** it, why should I reach a point where I get so frustrated that I’m the one that leaves.

Anyway.

Today’s twitter updates lead to

EXCLUSIVE: Starmer Donor Lord Alli Held Multiple Meetings With President Assad and Argued Syrian Dictator Should Not Be Removed

any smoke without fire?

“landslide” meaning lowest winning vote share in 100y…

Even a hundred years ago no party won a UK general with such a small share of the vote as Starmer did in July. It was all purely down to the Tories experiencing their worst ever general election result.

For Labour to repeat that in 2029 will require the Tories to remain as unpopular as they were last July. Hence the claim that Labour could lose the next general election without losing one single vote.

It is a sobering thought to remember that Tony Blair lost nearly 3 million votes in his first five years as Prime Minister. Still, I guess Starmer could eventually prove to be more popular with British voters than Blair was, we shall see.

Today’s twitter updates lead to

It is interesting to see Lord Alli”s views on Syria but it is hardly the lethal blow that will force Starmer to resign next week. I am sure that Starmer will weather this, and not least because Lord Alli’s views on Syria will be seen as quite sensible to many people.

Tories experiencing their worst ever general election result.

To be fair to them (what? madness!) both their worst ever result and also Labour’s landslide on a thin vote it’s because we had a real 4 party proposition this time with RUK taking votes from both C and La

The outcome next time will be decided not just by how well/badly the next 4.75 years turns out, but also whether C reabsorb RUK vote. On the plus side, seems like Farage has made no progress so far having spent most of the time sucking up to Trump while his MPs are going to implode at some point if only with self-anger about something. And C seem to be on track to elect a new leader with the usefulness co-efficient of a helicopter ejector seat, so hopefully they will continue to co-exist and halve their vote shares rather than coalesce.

“landslide” meaning lowest winning vote share in 100y…

404 seats, 167 working majority, i’m sure they’re crying in their cornflakes about vote share

It is interesting to see Lord Alli”s views on Syria but it is hardly the lethal blow that will force Starmer to resign next week.

In itself maybe not – but there’s plenty elsewhere questioning the Starmer and Alli donor-recipient relationship – and Alli is close to Assad – and Assad is close to Putin…. and even if that doesn’t actually compromise directly, is it another one of those poor judgement things that so far have plagued and actually threaten to derail the good stuff going in in small g government. Also talk of Sunday paper exposes, and even super injunctions.

I don’t want to post too many links in case there is truth, and create probs for STW but (pains me to say it) ‘do your own research’

Mmmm I vaguely remember someone giving the son of a ‘former’ KGB Officer a seat in the HOL as well as going on boozy holibobs  with him leaving the security detail behind :-)

Same guy I think that tried to get his mistress a £100k job and put his babysitter also in the HOL.

I can’t wait to see what the big expose about Starmer is :-)

But I can’t believe it won’t be something the other guy hasn’t already done(once or twice).

But when Starmer does it we suddenly have to be shocked and he must resign immediately.

On the plus side, seems like Farage has made no progress so far having spent most of the time sucking up to Trump while his MPs are going to implode at some point if only with self-anger about something.

I’m not so sure,I think he will be targeting the young and is playing a long game, he’s the most  charismatic and articulate of the current crop and has a tv platform.

Reforms just the vehicle to deposit him on the doorstep of Tory HQ as a Leader in the next election.

So if I’ve got this right, among other things the Tories set up illegal contracts to steal millions of pounds of tax payer cash to give to their mates.

Starmer has been gifted a few pairs of trousers from a private individual using their own money.

And the conclusion is “they’re all the same”?

he’s the most  charismatic and articulate of the current crop 

This is a wind-up, right? :)

“Even a hundred years ago no party won a UK general with such a small share of the vote as Starmer did in July.”

1923, minority govt on 30%. So depending on what you mean by “won”, it’s arguable.

I hope all those crowing about our gerrymandered antidemocratic system generating a majority for labour on a pitiful 33% of the vote are similarly thrilled when the tories win a stonking majority on ~37% next time. And I hope the same people don’t ever dare to complain about the pitiful state of politics and govt in our country.

Well here’s a bit of good news for Labour……it looks like Keir Starmer’s meeting with Donald Trump was quite a success and very worthwhile.

We just all need to keep out fingers crossed the great Donald Trump gets elected in US don’t we.

If people can’t see the need to try and interact and have some semblance of a relationship with potentially the next President of the United States, then there’s a level of naivety and childishness that explains a lot of this thread.

Meeting someone is not the same as wanting them to win.

1923, minority govt on 30%. So depending on what you mean by “won”, it’s arguable.

The definition of “winning” a UK general election is quite clear, to “win” a party has to have a majority of at least one. If no one has a majority then no one has won the general election, as was the case in 2010.

Being the largest party doesn’t even guarantee that a party will be in government.

The 34% that Labour received in July was the lowest ever for any party which has won a general election.

404 seats, 167 working majority, i’m sure they’re crying in their cornflakes about vote share

Obviously Labour will be very deeply concerned with how few voters voted Labour, irrespective of the size of the majority. Because they know full well that there is absolutely no guarantee that the peculiarities of first-past-the-post will again save their arses at the next general election.

But when Starmer does it we suddenly have to be shocked and he must resign immediately.

Thats one way of looking at it and certainly the one adopted by the tory rags. There seem to be three different views.

The tory one that Starmer receiving large hand outs is a problem but it was fine for the tories.

The Starmerite one that Starmer receiving large hand outs is fine but it was bad when the tories did it.

Then the view that both are a problem.

he’s the most  charismatic and articulate of the current crop

This is a wind-up, right? :)

unfortunately not :-(.

He’s also got a TV platform to slowly drip feed his lies over the next 4 years.

The 34% that Labour received in July was the lowest ever for any party which has won a general election.

And for most of the last 100 years we’ve had a right of centre government on a mainly progressive vote. Our electoral system is fundamentally unsound. This isn’t news, but the main parties seem to be quite happy with it.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/717004/general-elections-vote-share-by-party-uk/

So if I’ve got this right, among other things the Tories set up illegal contracts to steal millions of pounds of tax payer cash to give to their mates.

Starmer has been gifted a few pairs of trousers from a private individual using their own money.

And the conclusion is “they’re all the same”?

No you haven’t got it right. That is not the comparison being made. The comparison being made is both Tory and Labour party leaders filling their pockets with gifts and freebies from  wealthy Lords in a perfectly legal way and within the rules.

Here’s a further explanation from sleaze-fighter extraordinaire Martin Bell in the Guardian:

It’s not just the money, it’s the sense of entitlement. That’s the cause of sleaze in UK politics

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/27/money-entitlement-sleaze-uk-politics-commons

How do we know there’s a sense of entitlement?

I get the optics and needing to appear to be seen as pure as the driven snow, it shouldn’t have happened.

I’ve given stuff to people I know. I have no idea if they felt entitled to take it off me when they did because of who we are.

However badly Labour have handled it, there’s been a few assumptions made by people with no connection to the parties involved and the conversations and actions that seems desperate to assume the worst and drag out the saga.

Do not assume malice when it’s just incompetence, or whatever the saying is?

How do we know there’s a sense of entitlement?

Because the geezer who is a widely respected expert on parliamentary sleaze and has done a stint in the House of Commons claims there is?

Personally I can’t really challenge Martin Bell’s comments in his Guardian article as I haven’t even visited the House of Commons.

Because the geezer who is a widely respected expert on parliamentary sleaze and has done a stint in the House of Commons claims there is?

To be fair, that was some time ago.

He may have sources telling him that shady deals have been done for a new suit, but no one seems to have any evidence or if they have, it’s not strong enough to make a genuine claim that could be sued on.

There’s a presumption of guilt that is probably deserved based on Tory performance. There’s also a lot of people for whom “they are all as bad as each other” suits their own narratives, on the right and the left and I’m not seeing anyone asking for proof before rumours become facts

Did you read the actual article?  One bit :

Part of the answer to the enduring question of why MPs are so insouciant lies in the nature of the House of Commons itself: the grandeur of the setting, the liveried attendants, the archaic language (“honourable and right honourable members” and even the ex-military title of “honourable and gallant members”) and a consequent sense of entitlement. 

Martin Bell claims that despite being elected on an anti-sleaze ticket himself this sense of entitlement even began to affect him and he had to push back.

Yes that was some time ago which is why he was making the point that it hasn’t changed much, politicians still have this apparent sense of entitlement. According to Matin Bell calling a politician “the right honourable member” makes them feel special, I bet it does. And I bet they are convinced that they are entitled to all the gifts and freebies they can get their greedy hands on.

https://news.sky.com/story/rosie-duffield-resigns-as-labour-mp-13224014

First resignation, citing “The sleaze, nepotism and apparent avarice are off the scale”

Rosie Duffield has resigned from Labour, oh no how sad. Anyway, what’s everyone having for dinner?

— Supertanskiii (@supertanskiii) September 28, 2024

Blimey, I certainly didn’t expect that ^^ She isn’t even left-wing.

Before the general election I did suggest that the bigger the Labour majority the more likely the chance of civil war within Labour, a tiny majority would have maintained discipline, but I certainly didn’t expect a resignation within 3 months.

I thought the current battles within the Labour Party where solely based on personalities rather than policies, but this latest development suggests otherwise

So that’s tomorrow’s headlines sorted then.

From her resignation letter:

“Since the change of government in July, the revelations of hypocrisy have been staggering and increasingly outrageous”

She should have a peek at this thread.

A one-woman civil war? Starmers majority is on a knife-edge now.