UK Government Thread

It isnt a science. It is a social science.

lol

Is a glass of red wine good for you or not? So, it might be but it might not be.

I’m trying to find that list of foods the Daily Mail has said are simultaneously good and bad for you, but it seems to have disappeared…

it would be the same if you could if you wanted run experiments but the morals and ethics would be difficult

It was amusing when I did some psychology modules for my degree how often the professor said something along the lines of “whilst we would want to study this further we cant because the ethics committee wouldnt permit it nowadays”.

Awkwardly several of those experiments are very well known but have also been increasingly challenged for their lack of rigour in design.

Sticking with psychology it is also amusing how much got rebranded as behavioural economics in order to get the bigger paychecks.

If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?

If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?

I guess that’s why it falls more into the catagory of ‘social science’ rather than ‘pure’ science.

I mean, you can make projections and models based on certain assumptions, but, it all gets a bit fuzzy, quickly.

Like with pure science, we know that it takes a different amount of energy to boil one litre of water at sea level, than it does at the top of mount everest.

If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?

To a degree.

For example theoretical physics blurs the line since it moves into experimental physics once someone comes up with a way to test the theory and then after that it ends up as technology when someone practically implements the idea eg Einsteins theory of relativity started off as theoretical physics before being tested and then ended up being practically implemented in such things as gps.

Sadly economics doesnt generally follow such a path.

I don’t care whether economics is a science or not, and due to all the inputs/outputs/externalities and so on predictions of what will happen when lever a is pulled is never going to be exact.  The thing that matters to me are the biases and politics behind those who are sort of/think they are in control of the economy.

Will truly start to see what the differences are between Labour and Tories soon enough and hopefully they can let the public finances BS disappear over time.

If y9ou cannot prove anything is it a science?

Who says “you cannot prove anything” in economics? It’s just not true. Don’t listen to cranks – they want to degrade the established body of knowledge and academia because they want to present their oddball ideas as equally valid. And don’t listen to people whose only knowledge of economics is (sometimes amusing) aphorisms and quips.

Lots of science isn’t ‘proven’ there are thousands of hypotheses with evidence to support them but no definitive ‘proof’

Medicine in particular, lots of mechanisms that are near impossible to directly observe and affected by complex factor but whose operations are inferred from observable chemical or physical changes

And don’t listen to people whose only knowledge of economics is (sometimes amusing) aphorisms and quips.

As always your arrogance is impressive. I know its difficult for a genius like yourself to understand but just possibly other people do have knowledge of economics but just are skeptical of those who treat it like a proper science rather than one of the weaker social sciences along the lines of sociology.

Even the, in theory, more testable version of behavioural economics has gone into replication hell recently although oddly enough for a self professed science the profession has been slower to start replication studies.

Fair enough thestabiliser – but there is a consensus in medicine whereas in economics there seems not to be

There’s plenty of agreement in economics – it’s just that the stuff that everyone agrees about is not particularly contentious or interesting. There are still unknowns and disagreements in medicine and ecology, but that doesn’t mean they’re not sciences. There are also plenty of non-economists who claim what they’re doing is “economics” but it’s really just the exercise of power.

treat it like a proper science rather than one of the weaker social sciences

OOOOoooooOOOOOooooHHHhhhhh!

With regard to medicine there is IMO “medical science” which is only a part of medicine.  some parts of the medical world really are not science based but skills based where knowledge is useless if you do not have the skills

There’s also space for ‘social science’ within medicine. One of my colleagues is a Health Geographer, looking at how different sections of society experience different access and outcomes within healthcare etc.

I guess I’m a social scientist these days, looking at the politics surrounding sustainable transitions. My own stance is that people who think that economics is a pure science somewhat missed the point in that in it’s most basic sense, it is mainly a study in power relations and behaviours (other opinions are available).

Funny letter in the Guardian last week talking about the state of academia. It was along the lines of ‘given these institutions are full of so called economic experts, why are they all on the verge of going bankrupt’.

….but I think the more salient point is…..yes, we know that one poster thinks that Reeves needs to embrace MMT, hearing every 7 posts is probably going to be a bit tedious for some. (I’m not in disagreement re MMT).

Anyway, Tory leadership stuff should kick off a bit this afternoon. Should be fun!

but I think the more salient point is…..yes, we know that one poster thinks that Reeves needs to embrace MMT, hearing every 7 posts is probably going to be a bit tedious for some. (I’m not in disagreement re MMT).

It’s in reflection to people talking up the tax payer myth every 3 posts.

The point being we are stuck and nothing gets substantially better until we do away with Thatcherite thinking.

Let’s face it Reeves’ whole mandate has been about mythical government finances – I don’t think we should let her get away with it at the expense of society crumbling away.

If Reeves and Labour generally didn’t make such a thing out this – then there would be no value in my an others’ counter-arguments.

Plus Centrists roll-on with tax payer stories all they time. Actually that’s the tedious bit for me.

Balancing between tax take, spending, “borrowing”, issuing…. all these have still have to be taken into account under MMT, as you know. We all know there’s not a big pot that taxes go into, and money is then taken out of. That doesn’t mean that the answer to anything or everything is… “just spend the money, there’s no balancing to do”… “they’re just pretending this stuff matters”… no, they know this matters, from experience… Reeves and her team aren’t dealing in the abstract, they have a hard job ahead of them.

they have a hard job ahead of them

Yeah we know, they and their apologists like yourself never miss an opportunity to tell us just how hard it is to make life better for normal people. And yet they seem to find it very easy to help billionaires, arms companies, foreign states who are at war, and just about anyone and everyone who isn’t a working person paying taxes on the income they earn.

It’s all lies… it’s all easy.

Our public services are failing left right and centre… the gap between what many people earn and their essential living costs is negative and worsening all the time… there’s a hell of a lot to do, and it all needs doing now… but it’s going to be a long slow process… the easy instantaneous fixes are illusionary.

Oh, and yes… war in Europe is now a constant, not just a threat… so that will be a drain on all European states for the foreseeable future as well.

there’s a hell of a lot to do

Yes there is. So they should start bloody doing it rather than thinking of demonstrably false reasons why they can’t make an immediate impact by getting rid of the two child benefit cap. They have been elected to change things and they have an enormous mandate to do just that, rather than spend their time thinking of reasons to not do certain things.

More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…

The Labour government will shut down the Bibby Stockholm at the end of its contract, saving ten of millions. Labour will just do what the Tories ideologically refused to do, process the backlog.

Competence not performative cruelty from the Home Office.

The relief is palpable.

— Supertanskiii (@supertanskiii) July 23, 2024

More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…

Yeah that’s easy stuff that is very cheap and has almost no impact on 99.999% of the population. You’re mistaking basic low level competence for the stuff they should actually be doing, which is making the lives of working people and the poor more tolerable. The 2CBC is easy to do, it will have an enormouse positive impact, costs next to nothing, and has widespread support from almost everyone but the most swivel eyed tory loon so there’s not reason not to get on with it.

More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…

Too little, too late, there’s still child poverty, climate change and war in Europe and the middle east, they haven’t fixed any of that!

there’s still child poverty

See above, they could solve a lot of that problem right now, but they choose not to because they’d rather not annoy the Daily Mail or be seen to be giving in to their more left of centre MPs and activists.

More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…

I heard Mishal Husain interview Liz Kendall on R4 this morning. Poor Liz, you can’t throw media soundbites around to justify a lack of immediate action on Gaza… https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/mishal-husain-corners-minister-over-lack-of-action-over-gaza_uk_669f762ee4b03375f56f2d27

Liz was primarily questioned on unemployment rates. That didn’t go too well considering that’s her portfolio

Have they not stopped the killing in Gaza yet? FFS! What’ve they been playing at?

We all know that all Keir has to do is phone Israel up and tell them to stop and they will, and the inhumane bastard hasn’t even found the time?

He’s worse than Hitler!

they’d rather not annoy the Daily Mail 

This is literally what they have to do.

We all know that all Keir has to do is phone Israel up and tell them to stop and they will, and the inhumane bastard hasn’t even found the time?

I’ll take that as ironic comment. “We will be setting out more plans in the weeks and months ahead”

See above, they could solve a lot of that problem right now, but they choose not to because they’d rather not annoy the Daily Mail or be seen to be giving in to their more left of centre MPs and activists.

They can pretty much do what the hell they like at the minute as it will be long forgotten by the time of the next election. :-)

On the surface, transfer licences for weapons should be stopped right now… looks simple. It’s completely tied up with third countries though, isn’t it? Needs to be coordinated with them. Israel produces enough arms to protect itself, but USA, Germany & the UK can still make a point here… that what’s happening right now in Gaza is well beyond self protection, and that international cooperation on security is at it risk if that doesn’t change. There’s probably more to do here as regards intelligence sharing rather than physical supplies… I like to see that come into play in the open as well (it probably already is behind the scenes).

UK gov’s diplomatic efforts looks totally futile right now… but that doesn’t mean they should stop… or that calls to improve/increase them deserve mockery… all real diplomacy needs to be aimed at stopping the deaths and reducing the chances of them starting again in future… a ceasefire now, an immediately ramped up aid effort, and as peaceful as possible two state solution in place long term.

Netenyahu is presently in Washington and instead of being arrested and treated like the genocidal war criminal he is, he’s being feted like the pope and giving a speech to congress, presumably to say that he intends to continue the genocide and can we have another squadron of F-35’s please?.

The worlds biggest superpower is going to nod along, give him a round of applause, then carrry on sending him billions and billions of dollars worth of arms.

In the face of that, which is the uncomfortable reality of the matter, what exactly do you expect Keir Starmer to do that the Israeli’s would even notice?

On the surface, transfer licences for weapons should be stopped right now… looks simple. It’s completely tied up with third countries though, isn’t it? Needs to be coordinated with them.

Why couldn’t Liz Kendall say that? It sounds much better than what she did say; you’re wasted on here kelvin :)

Nothing I say will get in the way with diplomatic efforts, so, like you, I can just say it how I see it… and not worry about the fallout. And let’s not forget that the “fallout” here could be the continued destruction of Palestine in the short term, and the end of Israel in the long term… both of which are higher risk results than a few people disagreeing on a forum about how to go about things, and UK state involvement in all that.

More of that ‘doing nothing’ they’ve been indulging in over the past few weeks…

The key part being “at the end of the contract”.  Not immediately, no rush.

And agree with Dash, tories and reform whip up immigration as the major thing to be concerned about but whether people are on a barge or in other premises makes no difference to people lives does it.

Heres some more doing nothing…

Zero hours contracts…

The Employment Rights Bill will give workers the right to a contract reflecting the number of hours they regularly work.

It also requires bosses to give “reasonable notice” and compensation if shifts are changed or cancelled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4yvprvn94o

To say they haven’t been on office 3 weeks yet I think some are being a bit harsh…

Seeing reports that the cancellation of HS2 will actually reduce line capacity once the trains start replacing the Avanti services on the existing tracks. This is **** outrageous, I hope it gives labour some impetuous to reinstate it (in full!?)

The key part being “at the end of the contract”.  Not immediately, no rush

The Tories will have ‘negotiated’ the contract with one of their mates, no doubt based in the Caymen Islands

They will have legally watertight clauses in place which means cancellation will result in enormous financial penalties

Welcome to the real world as brought to you by the Tory party

I hope it gives labour some impetuous to reinstate it (in full!?)

The Tories have already salted the earth and flogged/given away the land to their mates

Again: Welcome to the real world as brought to you by the Tory party

Zero hours contracts are an interesting one.  I have worked on a zero hours contract because that is what I wanted – bank and agency nurse.  A pal of mine works on a zero hours contract.  Supply teacher  again her choice freely made.

Its actually quite hard to get rid of the abusive zero hours contracts without getting rid of the ones that folk like me want

However not removing the 2 child benefit cap with its abhorrent rape clause is indefensible and you guys know it