UK Government Thread

If you think that’s a bit wild and alarmist what do you think of the term “social cleansing” to describe the two-child benefit cap then?

Whataboutism.

Not sure anyone has the backing to sort this shitshow out, things that need to be done to address poverty, immigration, economy, NHS, Councils, Care, water, rail, education, war are significant. Trying to balance this with the markets expectations may not be possible. Not sure we it can be done. I have been aware of “Politics” from the late 1960s including the three day week, powercuts, the tricks that Thatcher and Blair turned are not available again. I don’t have much hope as Starmer will only be able to achieve a very limited amount of change.

Also remember the line:

“I will always put country first, party second.” May 2024.

This is the exact opposite.

You can’t believe a word this **** says.

‘sixth form crank’ Zara Sultana was on The News Agents. I thought that it was a good episode.

The 7 rebels are ineffective and merely virtue signalling.  what havwe they achieved apart from isolating themselves and making it less likely they have any influence?  its pure posturing.

Binners is often OTT on this but on this one he is right.

Blimey, not only does the Guardian, loyal centrist broadsheet, denounce the two-child benefit cap using alarmist terms such as “the worst social security policy ever”, but it also suggests that Starmer is “profoundly wrong and undemocratic” in removing the Labour whip from the rebels……a double whammy from the Guardian!

The two-child cap, introduced by the Conservatives in 2017, restricts child tax credit and universal credit to the first two children in most households. It impoverishes children, punishes ethnic minorities and humiliates women who have been raped. Unfair and morally repugnant, it is “the worst social security policy ever”, say academic experts. Ministers know this. Yet it is a truth that must be acknowledged everywhere but in the lobby divisions.

If the events of Tuesday night were the Labour leadership’s attempt to set a precedent to avoid dissent, it would be profoundly wrong and undemocratic. In making Labour MPs feel nervous about taking a stand against unjust and immoral policies, it also makes bad decisions more likely.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/24/the-guardian-view-on-labours-rebellion-removing-the-whip-is-a-step-too-far

There might be trouble ahead 

As above, the 7 who were suspended were all in the Socialist Campaign Group, as is Diane Abbott who also stated she’d have voted with them but couldn’t attend the vote.

It’s amazing they just fell into this, the SNP are there to try and cause issues with Labour, as they have lost a lot of their base, they hoped to get some rebels into this, and they duly did, and for what, a vote that was never going to win, this early into a new government, and they’re now on the outside looking in with even less influence on anything.

If you think that’s a bit wild and alarmist what do you think of the term “social cleansing” to describe the two-child benefit cap then?

That’s how a fellow centrist like yourself has described it

Well that’s certainly an escalation of rhetoric… jeez… I don’t think we have reached the ‘Republic of the Union of Myanmar’ levels of social cleansing just yet.

And people wonder why everyone else is bemused when absurd and exaggerated contrasts are made.

Centrist vs left

Not aimed at anyone but at everyone including me:

If there’s is one place on the net where people are rightly pulled up for generalisations and reductive arguments it’s on STW, so I find this whole you are left or centre a bit bizarre.

I’m going to stick my neck out here and suggest that a lot of people on here and in the country at large are both. How? My “swingometer” is definitely centerist on some policies but pick another one and I’m practically a communist. I am neither tied to a centrist ideology or a “far left”* one. I voted Corbyn and I voted Starmer, they aren’t mutually exclusive.

On X, amongst other things(!) I’ve been called a loony lefty, wishy washy centrist and woke.

All the of the above names I wear with some pride.

Personally, I wouldn’t like to be labelled as a Tory Lite as they are abhorrent to me and I have not, or ever will, vote for them.

Let’s stop vilifying people based upon this arbitrary political spectrum as people are far more complex than that. How about we let people self identify politically, rather than telling them where they are on this arbitrary spectrum?

Another sermon, sorry! 🙂

* I don’t use the term far left as a slur, quite the opposite.

what havwe they achieved

How about…… people are still talking about the two-child benefit cap and the Guardian currently has an editorial denouncing it the worst social security policy ever?

Not a bad achievement imo. Plus they couldn’t have predicted that Starmer would react in such an extreme way.

Read the Guardian editorial for an explanation of how Starmer uses the nuclear option in a way no other leader, including Tony Blair, has used it

You really think that thats been achieved by rebelling and could not have been done by other avenues and what difference does it make?  the Guardian had already denounced labours refusal to end the 2 child cap strongly on numerous occasions..

This bit of virtue signalling has achieved precisely nothing bar taking the 7 of them further away from being able to influence policy.

Let’s stop vilifying people based upon this arbitrary political spectrum as people are far more complex than that. How about we let people self identify politically, rather than telling them where they are on this arbitrary spectrum?

Absolutley… If ask me if we should have a police force and a judiciary, I’d say yes. That would make me authoritarian, and right wing.

If you ask me if we should have ‘free’ health care paid from general taxation, I’d say yes, and that would make me a left wing socialist.

So the net avearge of those two questions would make me a centrist?

Well, no, not really, ask me a thousand more political questions and you’ll get a thousand different answers. And that’s just one person.

It’s the job of the government to reach a consensus with a very difficult balancing act on a multitude of very important issues.

At least with our fresh faced government they are actually doing things, as opposed to the outgoing lot who just wanted to ‘stop the boats’ and ‘extract cash from the public for personal gain’.

‘extract cash from the public for personal gain’ is a bit too long to stick on a pedistal, and proably wouldn’t win many votes.

You do realise where the term centrist comes from don’t you? If you are in the centre you are by definition closer to the Tories. So you might not like  the term Tory-lite

So anyone to the right of Marx is aTory-lite? I’ve read some delusional arguments on here but that’s right up there.

How can centrist be closer to the Tories? If anything it is closer to what labour now is. There is definitely a right and a far right but no real left. Therefore labour pretty much occupy a centre ground. Poopscoop makes a good point up there ^ I’ve been called a Commie and a Socialist but I’m just left leaning. No country could function for long at either end of the spectrum. It just leads to a crazy person being in charge. A socialist democracy based on conscious capitalism is the way forward. Vote for Funk!

This bit of virtue signalling has achieved precisely nothing bar taking the 7 of them further away from being able to influence policy.

I look forward to the labour budget in a few months where Reeves find the cash to ensure the cap is lifted and social care is made available to all that need it and rely on it

cash to lift the cap – thats easy which is why it should have been done straight away

social care – thats a whole different  ball game – huge sums of money needed and a load of staff

There is definitely a right and a far right but no real left. Therefore labour pretty much occupy a centre ground.

Oh my sweet summer child, Only if you try to shift the envleope/paradigm to suit youself…it’s just noise from a very vocal minority, be that a shouty minority from the extreme left or the exreme right, it’s the same BS.

cash to lift the cap – thats easy which is why it should have been done straight away

social care – thats a whole different  ball game – huge sums of money needed and a load of staff

I doubt there’s many on this forum who have the slightest idea regarding the state of social care in this country, or who need the benefit cap lifted so they can attempt to scrape an existence for their kids/family, certainly not Binners with his pathetic remarks.

I’m on various MS forums  due to my spms and the utter and sheer despair over the past few years as to the issues folk face attempting to access the most basic cursory care would have folk on here shouting for tax the bankers, tax the super rich, tax the corporations, tax amazon etc….My aunt has MS and can’t get the care she needs, my gran is 81 and can’t get the care she needs, my mate is dying of a brain tumour and can’t get the care he needs, my neighbour can’t get the care she needs but thankfully her son makes a 300 mile trip every weekend to make sure she’s washed, has been eating, is clean, has food in fridge etc, staying overnight on her couch and leaving early in morning to get back to his work, paid minimal **** wage in a warehouse, he’s killing himself with the stress/workload.

Up and down the country there will be millions in similar situations so Starmer and Reeves had better get their finger out soon

At the current rate of my progression I’m going to need care that my mother can’t manage sooner rather than later, not a **** chance I’m hanging around to get my arse wiped.

If Gnusmus is around I imagine he’d have something to say about it.

I look forward to the labour budget in a few months where Reeves find the cash to ensure the cap is lifted and social care is made available to all that need it and rely on it

So do I, and I expect that’s exactly what will happen after due process/review.

Wecome to sensible politics… hopefully.

So anyone to the right of Marx is aTory-lite?

You think that is what I have said do you?

Right there is an example of why it is a struggle to have a sensible discussion on political threads

And the comment gets 3 “likes”, not because it makes any sense or reflects anything that has been said but because it is seen as having a pop at someone.

There is nothing “delusional” about pointing out where the term centrist comes from.

Personally I prefer the term Labour right-wingers than the term Labour centrists but right-wingers seem to hate being called right-wing, despite the fact that they clearly are. You cannot have a left-wing if you do not have a right-wing.

It is about time right-wingers embraced their political stance and stopped hiding behind terms such as centrist and moderate. If I was embarrassed about being left-wing I would change my stance, not hide behind another term.

Personally I prefer the term Labour right-wingers than the term Labour centrists but right-wingers seem to hate being called right-wing, despite the fact that they clearly are. You cannot have a left-wing if you do not have a right-wing.

If you can have a left wing and a right wing in a party (which I fully accept) doesn’t that imply a centre too? Though the centre of a particular party may be to the left or right of another party.

I posted this What political alignment is the British Public? a while ago and thought it was quite interesting see where people of different political persuasions thought they sat on a scale of far left to far right. It seems that most people of any age, social group, political alignment appear to consider themselves central or slightly left/right.

There is nothing “delusional” about pointing out where the term centrist comes from.
Define centrist then…

I’ll go first, it means the avearge/middle point, construed from a lot of data.

The centrist point of water, at atmospheric pressure, at sea level is somewhere between Zero or 100 degrees C. So quite a wide range.

I’ll call it 50 degrees c.

People really should not be using scientific terms, to make demonstrably false claims.

 It seems that most people of any age, social group, political alignment appear to consider themselves central or slightly left/right.

You seem to be doing some interpretation using “slightly” and if you look at the other surveys you should see the obvious problem with letting people define it for themselves.

As we can see repeatedly with people here patting themselves on the back using “pragmatic”, “sensible”, “grown up”, “moderate” it is mostly just variations on the tory/reform position of announcing themselves to be the silent majority. Most people will reflectively think of themselves as being the sensible types and so will go yeah I sit in the middle unless they look seriously at their position and go well actually I am pretty right wing.

When you look at the other survey placing Sunak and co on the same scale you might notice a problem. Anyone who defines the previous tory government as “left wing” is highly likely to be thinking of themselves as centrist and yet they might possibly not be.

Im wioth Ernie  Its labour right wing who are right of centre.  Reeves and cooper would both be right of centre

I’ll go first, it means the avearge/middle point, construed from a lot of data.

Middle point of what exactly?

Lets take an easy example.

Joe Manchin is often described as centrist/moderate but outside of the USA would be more accurately described as “thinks Thatcher is a bit of a commie”.

The general usage, in the UK, is mostly the third way eg  traditionally right wing economic policies and traditionally left wing social. Of course this in itself is complex eg Camerons austerity measures which break the left wing social but then a few changes such as gay marriage which support it.

You could also think of being a centrist as someone who’s only vote labour when they swing to the right ie Blair but would happily vote tory when they swing towards one nation conservatism. But would never vote reform or for Corbyn.

I reckon there’s a few people like that.

because it is seen as having a pop at someone.

So we’re back to hate likes again? Could it not just be as simple as people agreeing with his post? Does it have to have more nefarious reasons behind it?

Genuine question here @ernielynch and it leads on from my earlier post I suppose.

It is about time right-wingers embraced their political stance and stopped hiding behind terms such as centrist and moderate. If I was embarrassed about being left-wing I would change my stance, not hide behind another term.

I just want to understand really, why is it important to you how people define themselves politically?

I’m not going to follow up with any sort of counter argument, I’m really just interested to know why this political metric is important to you and no doubt some others in here?

Cheers!

Meh 2 kid cap is ok by me.  If you cant afford more then dont have more.

I doubt there’s many on this forum who have the slightest idea regarding the state of social care in this country,

I doubt there’s many that are involved in the preparation of submissions to the various Gov Depts either. I’ve explained in as much detail as I can what is happening across Gov, and what the process is by which the new taskforce, DHSC, and DWP will develop their solution to child poverty, and in the end I have been beaten back by the sheer persistence of others repeating their ‘it’s not difficult’, ‘there’s no limit to spending’ etc. Expectations and opinions of what they think should happen, vs what is actually going to happen.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/spending-reviews

It’s not a debate, it’s just endless repetition of the same ‘Yeh but I want’ that doesn’t make it any truer or any more likely to happen. Have fun with it, there is literally nothing I can add beyond what’s already said; I’ve waited a day so I don’t just post in anger but this is my last one on this subject.

As for being accused of a centrist flounce. Maybe I am a centrist, whatever that means. Is it a flounce? I see that as someone running away when they are losing the argument; maybe I’m doing that but as above I can’t argue against your ‘Yeh but I want’ so when I can’t add anything further no point hanging around. So I guess you win, not by being in any sense right, but just by persistence.

And the moan at the pub being wrecked – wasn’t aimed at either side, there are posters on both sides of this argument that are guilty of hoying the furniture, who should all have a look at themselves.

Have fun.

Could it not just be as simple as people agreeing with his post?

Except in this case there is nothing to agree with. I didn’t actually say that anyone to the right of Marx is Tory-lite, so what are they agreeing with? Nothing.

They were presumably liking the post because it was seen as having a dig at someone. It’s basically primary school politics, never mind the 6th form.

 If you cant afford more then dont have more.

I just lost my job and had to take one which pays considerably less.

What do I do with the third kid? Put them up for adoption and if so should it be first in, last out or should I ask them to reapply for their jobs?

dissonance
Full Member
If you cant afford more then dont have more.

I just lost my job and had to take one which pays considerably less.

I was just about to post that as a theoretical scenario. Sorry to hear it’s actually happened to you and your family mate.

I just want to understand really, why is it important to you how people define themselves politically?

Well it obviously isn’t. I made it clear that personally I prefer to use the term right-wing but they seem to prefer the term centrist, so I tend to use that more these days.

I genuinely have no idea why people who are right-wing tend to prefer not to be called right-wing, it seems to be a common theme across political parties and throughout the world.

I think I see Ernie and thanks for taking the time to reply.

 If you cant afford more then dont have more.

I like that, it is an honest declaration that you support the policy.

However it isn’t relevant in the context to how it is being discussed here. The current Labour government fully accepts that there is no moral justification for the two-child benefit cap and have made it clear that they will scrap it just as soon as they feel it is affordable.

The issue is whether it is affordable to scrap it or not.

Sorry to hear it’s actually happened to you and your family mate.

It was hypothetical thankfully. I thought the FILO and reapply for jobs was sufficient but perhaps I should have added more.

It was hypothetical thankfully. I thought the FILO and reapply for jobs was sufficient but perhaps I should have added more.

Ah, sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick!

I prefer to use the term right-wing but they seem to prefer the term centrist, so I tend to use that more these days.

Can you not see how that sort of language is part of the problem?

They? Who are ***they***?

I’m certainly not ‘right wing’ by any standard definition of that term. I despised the conservative government for exacly that.

I voted labour despite philosophically being a lib dem.

Give Kier a chance FFS, it’s not even been 3 weeks yet, before casting sweeping assumptions.

Joke edit.. if this was a conservative government, we’d be have cycled through at least 2 PM’s by now.

@dissonance yes making sure that minimum wage work pays enough to live on is a priority for me too.

Unemployed people with more than 2 kids not so much.