Is a fact or journalistic conjecture?

Well the police released the information about the bullet in the radio in the first place to try and build a case in the media, rather than waiting for the facts to be obtained and to present evidence at the appropriate time. No one seemed to view it as “journalistic conjecture” when it was assumed to have been fired by the dead man.

“turns out that bullet lodged in the police radio was police issue….oops

Is a fact or journalistic conjecture?

Remember the last time the Press went rampant ruining lives?
“

seems to be from “a source” according to the guardian.

turns out that bullet lodged in the police radio was police issue….oops

No. Reports were it was a hollow point round. Same as the police use.

Just to add, as we don’t know what type of gun it is, whether it was discharged or not, who the source of the “initial ballistics tests” is and who was supposed to have fired what at whom, then all this discussion about the how it started and why the guy was shot is idle speculation.

However, if he had a gun in the minicab, he would have understood the risks associated with that, one of which is if the Police stop him with it, he is likely to have the wrong end of a barrel or two pointing at him.

Once that happens, you’re just one wrong move away from being shot yourself.

“The Police”?

Or someone disclosed that information?

Lets wait for the facts to come out instead of inciting hatred. I’d have expected more responsible Journalism from the Guardian but then again no one in Tottenham who takes part in the riots will have a croissant, an espresso and a quick read of the education section before coming incited…

If we want to enter the grounds of conjecture though how about it was shoddy surrounding of the suspects car and an officer shot another officer?

Remember the last time the Press went rampant ruining lives?

http://news.sky.com/home/article/15874586

the police were just as culpable in that, when they had no evidence what so ever so why did they apply for the extensions in the time they could question him ? I wouldn’t be surprise if they told the press they had their man (off the record). The police actions even made the family feel they had caught their daughters killer.

Am I the only one who frankly doesn’t believe a bloody word the police say? Especially in situations like this. The stories that eventually emerge seem to have little in common with the (mis)information initially divulged by the feds

Innocent until proven guilty though.

I remember the stories going into every aspect of his life. It was disgusting character assassination.

“Home Secretary Theresa May is to return from her summer holiday following a second night of violence in London.”

This is getting out of hand now.

those nasty lefty guardian bastards raking up police hatred

oh wait it was the IPCC that said it was a police round

as reported in the guardian..??…!!.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687804/Tottenham-riot-bullet-lodged-in-officers-radio-at-time-of-Mark-Duggan-death-was-police-issue.html

[devil’s advocate]
Even if it was a police issue round, it does not mean it was fired by the police.

Stepping away from the seriousness of the situation, I chuckle every time I see the police referred to as ‘feds’! 🙂

Who said this? ‘initial tests’.

Who implied this/said this or is it worded to sound controversial so members of the public will run out and buy their papers?

Who implied this/said this or is it worded to sound controversial so members of the public will run out and buy their papers?

I’ve read two different reports about why he may have been carrying a gun, one said that he was after revenge on the people that stabbed his mate that other said he was paranoid about being attacked after someone stabbed his mate.

Is it only the police bullet story that you’ve got a problem with people speculating about? The BBC managed to find a picture of him making the ‘gun’ shape with his hands (heavily cropped as well), I reckon I could find about 20 pictures of people I’m friends with on facebook making that sign. But I suppose it wouldn’t have fitted the narrative if they’d have used a pic of him playing with his children etc.

Given each of the officers will have the rounds issued to them counted in and out, unless they’re buying ammo on the black market to try to shoot colleagues with, this should be proven or disproved today you’d hope.

I reckon I could find about 20 pictures of people I’m friends with on facebook making that sign.

I wouldn’t be able to find one.

So just because the police shoot at somebody and they kill him,does it then make it right for certain members of the feral population, to set fire, loot and destroy peoples homes and buisness, along with injuring the police officers doing their job.

Oh and where this bloody governmnet gone, they where doing so well, and now thrown it all away, along with boris.

Theres been as much leadership as a teddy bears tea party organiser, who is obviously a bear.

One interesting quote was from his brother was that he wouldn’t have been as stupid as to point a gun or shoot at police. Fair enough but no statement that he wouldn’t have been carrying a gun at all. That said, being a wrong-un with a gun in his jacket isn’t enough of an argument to justify him being shot but I guess we’ll (hopefully) find out more in the coming days.

So what excuse was there for attempted rioting in Brixton last night? Or Enfield?

being a wrong-un with a gun in his jacket isn’t enough of an argument to justify him being shot

borderline though, maybe just a shot in the foot

nickf – Member
So what excuse was there for attempted rioting in Brixton last night? Or Enfield?

None. Thieving and wanton damage for no reason at all.

You know they broke into Brixton Fire Station and looted kit off the appliances

WTF

So what excuse was there for attempted rioting in Brixton last night? Or Enfield?

I expect we’re seeing the reasons for unrest widening somewhat. In fact I reckon the original specific reason could soon be eclipsed by a far wider sense of grievance against the ‘authorities’

There are an awful lot of disenfranchised youth out there at the moment. Who have no stake in society, and who’s position is extremely unlikely to improve much any time soon. Same as there were in the 80’s when this last all went off. In fact the parallels are pretty stark. All that’s needed is a catalyst. Which we now appear to have

I suspect that police forces in all the major inner cities are watching this develop and getting pretty twitchy themselves

You know they broke into Brixton Fire Station and looted kit off the appliances

WTF
There would have been a certain amount of irony had they also tried to set it alight…

Am I the only one who frankly doesn’t believe a bloody word the police say?

No – I’m sure the usual suspects will be along soon enough with their wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Binners +1

To be honest I have been expecting this since last summer, all it needed was for something to kick it off.

TooTall – they’ve hardly got a spotless record of releasing accurate information after incidents like this, have they. In fact in the De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson cases there was obviously a policy of deliberate misinformation while people ‘got their stories straight’

I imagine this is exactly whats going on now. I reckon in a few weeks time a somewhat different picture will have emerged to the one we’re looking at now

There are an awful lot of disenfranchised youth out there at the moment

And the best they can come up with to address their situation is burning and smashing stuff up ?

That’ll really help their situation.

🙄

I reckon in a few weeks time a somewhat different picture will have emerged to the one we’re looking at now

And lots of pictures of looted shops, burned out cars and people made homeless.

Am I the only one who frankly doesn’t believe a bloody word the police say?

I have a healthy cynicism when the police try and build a case in the media, before all facts are in and properly investigated, it makes me wonder why.

hora – Member

I reckon I could find about 20 pictures of people I’m friends with on facebook making that sign.

I wouldn’t be able to find one.

No-one you know done the ‘charlie’s angels’ pose?

project – Member
So just because the police shoot at somebody and they kill him,does it then make it right for certain members of the feral population, to set fire, loot and destroy peoples homes and buisness, along with injuring the police officers doing their job.

No.

But the police would have done a lot better if they’d released details sooner/talked to community leaders. Can’t you understand why people feel no respect for the police when they won’t even talk to them?

Of course people have taken advantage of this for the own ends, but how long can riots be blamed on ‘middle class students out for a jolly’ and ‘members of the feral population’? I know it makes it easier to ignore when ‘the other’ is invoked but it just means we’ll have these same problems in 10/15 years.

binners – Member
TooTall – they’ve hardly got a spotless record of releasing accurate information after incidents like this, have they. In fact in the De Menezes and Ian Tomlinson cases there was obviously a policy of deliberate misinformation while people ‘got their stories straight’

+1

“I predict a riot, i…….. 😆 Are Elfins sawvin mates still at it??

Tell you what Bullheart… that clip is fookin hilarious!

Carry on the rest of you, carry on.

I do hope that those that profess a doubt about what police reports initially state (which I have some sympathy with) and request others wait before casting judgment can apply the same logic to those that rioted. They have caused untold damage (both physical and physiological) to their own neighbourhood on the basis of as few facts and a much rumour as those that sit here and criticise. I would have had more respect for their cause (not the looter tosspots but those actually protesting) if they were to be doing so on reasoned evidence.

We are picking around the edges here though – exactly how he died and how those last few seconds panned out sounds like it’s still to be determined but I don’t think there is any argument that he was an armed known fellon is there?

oldgit – Member

These are very distinct as the Metropolitan Police uses dum dum type hollowed out bullets designed not to pass through an object.

Sorry for the change of subject, but I thought these were outlawed years ago. Designed to expand and fragment on impact to cause untold damage….that’s what I thought.

IIRC Hallowpoint rounds have been ‘outlawed’ by international treaty re: warfare. As for criminal justice, all fair

Hallowpoint rounds

Did someone shoot Jesus?

the reasoning seems sound enough.

Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of civilian and police ammunition, due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation. In many jurisdictions, even ones such as the United Kingdom, where expanding ammunition is generally prohibited, it is illegal to hunt certain types of game with ammunition that does not expand

from wiki, natch

hallowpoints…..ooops

We are picking around the edges here though – exactly how he died and how those last few seconds panned out sounds like it’s still to be determined but I don’t think there is any argument that he was an armed known fellon is there?

Is that a capital crime?

Who cares about the people who rioted? They aren’t shrinking violets or vunerable people.

**** you’d pap yourself if you were even in the same room. So would I. No amount of Youth clubs, fancy parks and Social workers can help them. They are the product of generations of illiterate idiots. They will always exist no matter what you do unless you can stop people taking drink and drugs throughout pregnancy who then go onto claim its the Governments fault for not helping them (give them more money to carry on being feckless).

**** em. Let them rot. They’ve no interest in being part of our society so why would we spend money keeping them within their lifestyles?