If they’re diving into their travel why do you want to reduce the pressures? I’d set up with somewhere between 25-30% sag initially and see how that rides. If you’re not getting full travel I probably wouldn’t put more tokens in as you’re even less likely to get through the travel as it’ll ramp up harder right at the end.

Have you got a low speed compression adjuster on either the forks or the shock? What fork / shock have you got and what bike is it on?

Tokens will make the forks/shock feel firmer later in their travel, they won't really affect the initial travel. So if you're not using full travel now, they probably wont help too much. If you have adjustable compression damping, try increasing that to firm things up a bit.

Speaking only for tokens, yes.   I have 4 in a 100mm Reba for exactly this.  I was able to lower the pressures so it was very supple over small bumps but the tokens meant it ramped up pdq if you slammed the brakes on.

If you want the suspension to ride higher, you want more pressure, more volume (less tokens!).

Sounds like less tokens/spacers and more air pressure is the answer unless it makes the shock sit right up without sag. More pressure to lessen small/medium travel then less tokens to stop pressure ramping up and limiting total travel.

Tokens change the spring rate curve.

This explains it quite well:

agree with others, for dive, try less tokens and more air

If you look at those four graphs showing how tokens change things, imagine rotating the lines with extra tokens so the spring force is the same at 25% travel, which will mean that you’ve got the same sag with zero to three tokens.

You’ll then see how tokens only affect the last third of your travel - they’re to stop you bottoming out, they won’t help add support in the midstroke or reduce brake dive.

A lot of people make the mistake of running too much sag with too much progression that they end up just sitting in the travel against a wall, you'll have loads of negative travel to track, nothing to absorb hits and wonder why its harsh.

OP, up the spring rate. Also, when was last service/lowers lube? Unless everything is free moving, you're just chasing your tail.

I only add tokens if I am bottoming out regularly for the right spring rate. No point having x amount of travel if too many tokens means you never get there. So if your spring rate is correct, you only bottom out occasionally through having the right number of tokens, but you need more support, then add on a bit of low speed compression damping.

Ok, thanks for that, so I may need to remove a token and spacer...thanks.

I definitely need to reduce the pressure in the systems as they both seem to be sitting at about 20% sag...I've lost about 8kg - not much, but seems to be enough to have reduced my sag from 25% to 20%.

Rock Shock Pike - compression and rebound (I think) and Monarch RCT3 (I think) rear.

I'll do some playing around with it, but it feels like the initial travel is swallowed up quickly and then the rest of it isn't, so was trying to work out what I could try (easily) to try and improve that. I still want small bump action, just not as much as I have - maybe need to speed up the rebound?

Not quite sure what you mean by "dive" but if you going through travel too easily, and your sag is correct, more HSC or add a token, or if you've lost weight, just check again where your sag point is, you may need to just add a bit more air back in  and maybe look at HSC

If your pike can take a luftkappe I would fit that rather than tokens but ideally something like the DSD runt or chickadeehill AWK

Yeah, maybe you have too much rebound damping wound on and it's packing down and never recovers properly, hence you feel like you are too far into the travel a lot of the time.

How are you on the bike when you’re checking sag? I think you’re meant to be standing up in the ‘attack’ sort of position in the middle of the bike. I’d be surprised if you’re flying through the initial fork travel if you’re only on 20% sag. If it’s a like rct3 with 3 travel positions and a middle lsc asjuster then set it to full open on the main adjuster then try dialling in the lsc adjuster a few clicks at a time until you stop seeing so much dive. If it’s an rc then you just have one big dial - start full open from the left and click right a few clicks at a time then try it out etc.

Other than that, if you don’t have the 2019 or 2021 debonair air spring it might be worth sticking one in. It has a bigger negative spring to get the fork moving easier initially, but you run it at a higher air pressure to stop so much mid stroke dive.

On the shock I don’t think you have lsc - just 3 positions - open / firm / lock out. Not sure what you can do with that other than add tokens.

20% sag is the recommended amount for modern fox and RockShox forks.

Dive can also be controlled by low speed compression damping not high speed as reported above.

If you've reduced pressure you'll normally need to speed up the rebound too as the rebound damping is now not having to deal with as much force from the air spring.

Might be worth trying sag at 15-20% it'll sit higher in the initial travel. Problem with running 20-30% sag is that you're halfway into the travel without much effort.

If you can increase the LSC try that too, as that will increase the mid stroke support and control rider inputs.

Do each thing separately, one at a time.

As above, If youve changed sag, then you need to reset everything else as well. But i would guess more commpresion damping and less rebound damping is where you need to be.

agree with others, for dive, try less tokens and more air

I'd start with no tokens and correctly set sag.
Adjust rebound and LSC to suit
Go for a ride and note how it feels
Then look at adding tokens or volume spacers

Dive can also be controlled by low speed compression damping not high speed as reported above.

not quite true

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide/tuning-high-speed-compression-damping

And in the LSC tuning uide:

https://www.shockcraft.co.nz/technical-support/setup-guide/tuning-low-speed-compression-damping

If you have too little LSC then the fork will rapidly dive until the spring can build enough force to hold you up.

So, could either, or both, or rebound, or incorrect air pressure.

And in the LSC tuning uide:.

I'm not saying LSC doesn't stop dive but the way the fork works is that LSC and HSC are interdependent on each other. Tells you this in manuals. I can adjust the HSC on my mezzer. I get better LSC effect with the HSC set 2 clicks from open and LSC set 5 from open than I do with the LSC fully closed (9 clicks). So he might not get enough support from the base valve to get the effect he wants.

What year of fork do you have?

Remember to test on the trail not the car park.

Agreed - tbh he might not even have independent HSC and LSC adjustment. Which makes things easier, I suppose...

HSC will have an effect on LSC compression and vice-versa, theres a crossover ground of velocities where both adjusters if you have them will have an impact.

Also careful about damping to hold the front end up, it can only "hold" you up momentarily, it's the spring that supports the body weight at the end of the day.

2019 might actually be 2020 Pike Select RC 140mm and Deluxe RT3 Debonair, again either 19 or early 2020.

@DickBarton Bike Doctor do Shockwiz hire. Had a look and it’s £20 a day or £35 for a weekend. At that price it’s worth trying, as it will show what is actually going on, not what what you think is going on. With your forks the compression adjustment isn’t split but it would still point you in the right direction pressure and token wise.

I've got a shockwiz myself but it is utterly dependant on the terrain being ridden. I can set it up so it works wonders for a given type of trail but not all the trails are like that...I'm thinking I need to tweak stuff myself before I connect the shockwiz.
Other issue with shockwiz (unless it has changed) is you can't specify what options your fork has so it tells you to adjust HSC and LSC and you may not have those options.

I suspect I just need to get tweaking and testing and see what the difference is.

Are you a constant fiddler or do you want a fit and forget setting? Personally I like one set up and ride around it. I guess a shockwiz wouldn’t help completely with that. That said, if you have one then use it. Even if you can’t adjust all the settings it will give you guidance on which way to go.
Could be you need two lots of settings.
Back to back runs definitely help, only problem is carting around a big socket and pile of tokens with you. Personally I like Comrie Croft for set ups. Can run short loops and back to car to make changes.

May have found a large part of the issue...I've misread the rebound settings and had both fork and shock set to about 2 clicks off the slowest setting. Suspect this has caused the feeling of going through the travel quickly.

Will find out tomorrow.

Thanks for advice and suggestions so far. If this does improve things then shockwiz will be deployed to see how far away from the recommended it is.

That is much better! Thanks for the pointers...the rebound adjustment to the right way has definitely helped. Bike felt much sharper and smoother over the lumps and bumps.

Weirdly enough, my Fox 36 grip 2 forks are feeling a bit harsh over repeated, fast medium sized hits, but OK on single hits.

I think the rebound is the reason for me too, I'm pretty sure it's packing down and not able to respond over multiple hits.

Good to hear it's sorted your issues, I think Rebound is the forgotten setting, everybody focuses on compression when forks feel harsh...

Good to hear you are sorted.

Not sure on sorted...I'm still a crap rider but now I've just remove a variable to increase the likelihood that it is my inability rather than technology! Haha