[Closed] Toe curling 650b marketing guff.

In the style of
[img] [/img]
650b Coming all over your trails...

The last time I heard somebody telling us that science tells them something they sell is the bestest and only one that will work properly it was a guy called Steve telling us that users would have to file down their fingers to use a tablet under 10" and anybody selling one would be an idiot.

maths

Some awful examples of tyre to rim logo alignment.

God he is a bell end.

Giant can get bent.

On the plus side, if you ever play the guy at poker, he has quite the tell.

*stares off into the middle distance*

Edit: I should really bookmark this video for when 28.3 becomes the future next year, but I really don't give a shit.

Jesus you would at least think the manufacturers would believe the bull they are sprouting, but not one of them came across as actually believing in what they were saying!

Not very PC either, bikes aimed at short arses and bikes aimed at lanky gits. How very sizeist

Has any one bought a Giant 29er recently...oops

Nothing beats the trails coming alive

the woman at 1:19 seems much more sensible. however, if treks had ditched 26", you know that the story would be the same as the giant douche.

That guy from Cube comes across as making the most sense!

The Giant guy next year:

*We really pushed 27.5 last year, but [s]our marketing department has told us[/s] that was a mistake, as we are certain that oblong wheels are going to be the future...."

That guy from Cube comes across as making the most sense!

He was the diamond in the rough.

I wanted each interview to end with a man walking into shot and striking each of them roughly across the chops with a huge wet fish, before then walking off shaking his head and tutting.

Also if for some reason in the future we ever see the bike companies doing a u turn saying they were wrong and the 26" is in fact the wheel size of the future and not Infact finished. They should all do at least a five stretch in the big house.

That'll learn them.

The last time I heard somebody telling us that science tells them something they sell is the bestest and only one that will work properly it was a guy called Steve telling us that users would have to file down their fingers to use a tablet under 10" and anybody selling one would be an idiot.

Then they went and dominated the tablet market....

[quote=Jamie ]The last time I heard somebody telling us that science tells them something they sell is the bestest and only one that will work properly it was a guy called Steve telling us that users would have to file down their fingers to use a tablet under 10" and anybody selling one would be an idiot.

Then they went and dominated the tablet market....

Very true Jamie, just pointing out that quoting Maths/Science/millions of hours of research is normally just marketing BS to promote what you want to sell.

Either that or the next wheel size is going to be 10" 8)

For other examples look at the finish dishwasher tablet ads, the ones from 10 years ago apparently did everything and left everything sparkling, next year the new one leaves everything er sparkling just like the last ones which were perfect then - and thats an industry I used to work in 🙂

I hope somebody plays that back to him in a couple of years when Giant decide something else is amazing.

That guy from Cube comes across as making the most sense!

Really? I just thought he was spouting the 650bs crap as much as the Giant guy, it just wasn't Americanised.

The woman from Trek is bang on. It's ironic that after years of pretty bad, OTT marketing from Trek and Specialized (who didn't really need to as the products were great) they're now the two companies who are making some of the least marketing orientated bikes on market. They've both held out on the 650bs longer than anyone.

Giant have always had well built, average riding bikes (due to total tools in R&D) but lately the marketing cool aid is getting really embarrassing. Someone needs to get on damage control there. I doubt even the most latest and greatest yanks aren't buying it.

Giant have always had well built, average riding bikes (due to total tools in R&D) but lately the marketing cool aid is getting really embarrassing.

The most common reason most people give round here for buying a Giant round here - it was cheaper

26" isn't dead, it'll remain in the cheap HT market

That sounds dead to me, they'll just be BSO's from sports direct etc

[quoteHas any one bought a Giant 29er recently...oops

Yep i bought two, both really good bikes too which confuses me even more why they are so aggressive towards 26 and 29??

Im waiting to hear what Specialized have to say on the matter,that will be interesting..

The lady from Trek and the guy from Hargroves made the most sense on that vid in my opinion

Yep i bought two, both really good bikes too which confuses me even more why they are so aggressive towards 26 and 29??

Im waiting to hear what Specialized have to say on the matter,that will be interesting..

I think the Giant guy was trying to say "by putting all our bike on the same wheel size we can achieve a greater economy of scale, screw our suppliers a bit more with the prospect of suppying our whole demand, and make another 50 bucks per bike as a result...."

Perhaps the 27.5 should be marketed as an "average" bike with the 26" and 29" at either end of the scale....

Perhaps the 27.5 should be marketed as an "average" bike with the 26" and 29" at either end of the scale....

^^this x1000

I've said it on here before but if you really look into the reason why 650b came along it was only ever a pure marketing decision from companies who missed the 29" train. Trek/Fisher, Specialized, were selling a lot of bikes in the US and had the momentum and R&D to engineer bikes for every category. Everyone else was playing catch-up and rather than fight they simply moved the goal posts. Brilliant really.

For once you have to give it to Specialized. They have mostly alloy rear triangles on their bikes, they have pots of money, they already have the best 29'ers, so why not just change the entire 26" line that they continue to produce alongside the 29" bikes to 650b? Well they just didn't think 650b offered enough advantage over 26". Which IMO is totally the case.

I lasted 2:51 before I wanted to hurt kittens.

Next person who hands a mike to a marketing nerd gets a kick in the nuts

I'm predicting 5 pages, minimum on this one.

I've got a shed full of 26" tyres. I'm not changing until they're [b]all[/b] worn out! 😀

... and the guy from Hargroves made the most sense on that vid in my opinion

Really? The [i]taller[/i] rider on a 16" frame or above will suit a 29 inch wheel.

Also, the Giant guy saying 29ers are dead must pain all those who were taken in by the previous industry BS. Now I'm not arguing that 29ers are no good per se. It's just that there must be a lot of people who just bought one thinking they would be better for the type of riding they were doing and they found that they weren't.

industry BS

One bloke REALLY should have ironed his shirt, won't be buying one of those bikes. Shoddy standards.

That made for painful watching.

So Giant spent 2 years testing and evaluating 26, 650B and 29 and decided that 650b is the right wheel for everybody. Well clearly they got some time frames wrong as they have had 29 as the right wheel for the last year.

Every interview on that video was terrible and marketing bull. I don't think one of them believed what they were saying.

Tis a shame that marketing will most likely decide the wheel size for the masses.

Oh, it's from bikeradar. Ignore the shill bastards.

so which one was Bikeind?

so which one was Bikeind?

None, Bikeind is so bigtime, he gets to send his shop staff to Japan to test Shimano 11 speed MTB before product managers for some of the largest bike manufacturers in the world.

On the plus side, anyone with a high end 26" bike atm should hang on to it, top of the range 26" will become so rare that the value on the second hand market will soar.

I've said it on here before but if you really look into the reason why 650b came along it was only ever a pure marketing decision from companies who missed the 29" train.

No, you heard it from the Giant bloke in the video [i]29 wasn't right for some markets[/i] - By that what he means is that although it took off in the states, 29 fell flat on its arse in the rest of the world, Europe in particular - 650 came about to force people into change because they wouldn't buy in to 29 by choice.

by putting all our bike on the same wheel size we can achieve a greater economy of scale, screw our suppliers a bit more with the prospect of suppying our whole demand, and make another 50 bucks per bike as a result...."

I did always suspect that one of the beauties of 29 for big manufacturers was that all the machines, jigs, wheel building machines etc were [i]coincidentally[/i] the same size as road bikes, making it nice and easy to transfer production between the two

29 fell flat on its arse in the rest of the world

Hmmm not quite sure about that, I see more big wheels than tiny here in the NWAlps & trail centres/natural trails in the UK when I've been riding
Even the bike to work only riders are now on them (prob 40% of those I see in the mornings) I grant you this might be down to the lack of 26" in the shops now rather than personal preference

That guy from Cube comes across as making the most sense!

He did say "Its not such a dramatic change as going from 26" to 29", its kinda some middle ground" which certainly cleared the whole debate up for me. If only I had managed to work that out myself....

Did the guy from Storck say they have a bike for every porpoise? What size wheels are best for dolphins then?

Really? The taller rider on a 16" frame or above will suit a 29 inch wheel.

Also, the Giant guy saying 29ers are dead must pain all those who were taken in by the previous industry BS.

I am really annoyed with Giants stance on this, at the end of the day i've bought Giant Bikes for the past 10 years, which eqautes to 6 Road and mountain bikes. I love the way Giant bikes ride and they are good value..BUT im really p1ssed off with the attitude of the company now with this 650b format, and plan to write a very to the point e-mail to Giant UK to express my anger / dissapointment. If i dont get a satisfactory response ill never buy a Giant Bike again. SIMPLE AS!!

, and plan to write a very to the point e-mail to Giant UK to express my anger / dissapointment. If i dont get a satisfactory response ill never buy a Giant Bike again. SIMPLE AS!!

Are you Arnold J Rimmer after a polymorph attack?

That made for painful watching.

You're kidding, it's comedy gold. Just a brilliant cross section of folk living in a weird industry bubble where everyone has the latest thing and last year might as well be last century, doing their level best to justify a marginal increase in wheel size.

Here's the thing. It's all about the numbers. The universe is run by giant lizards - I think we all accept that by now - but less well understood is that the rotational velocity of the earth is governed by the cumulative circumference of all the bicycle wheels in the world. If we are ever to escape the gravity field of the sun, we need to increase that velocity by a considerable margin.

The easiest way for this to happen is for the bicycle industry - controlled by giant lizards, natch - to increase the average wheel size. This was what 29ers were all about, but the experiment failed, hence 650b. Rewatch the video and tell me that you can't see a certain reptilian set about the eyes of many of the interviewees.

Just a theory, obviously, but one that makes about as much sense as 27.5" wheels that aren't actually 27.5" after all. 😉

The guy Stevens/Hargroves is Bikeind and I claim my £27.50

Are you Arnold J Rimmer after a polymorph attack?

Dont do drugs kids..

I thought that was quite interesting.

Giant - really? Sort it out.
Trek - yup I can see that.
Hargroves/Stevens - makes sense.
Storck - 1m85? Thats quite tall to move onto 29er but OK your principle is sound.

Fundamentally 29er doesn't go into big travel because the back wheel won't move far enough owing to needing a seat tube etc. Short people have issues getting the front of a 29er low enough.

So for the very short or those wanting a new trend or those wishing to have a lot of travel and experience trails coming to life 650b makes sense.

I prefer my trails inanimate but still interesting and preferably dry.

If we are ever to escape the gravity field of the sun...

Why would the lizards want us to escape the gravity field of the sun? 😕

BadlyWiredDog - Member
You're kidding, it's comedy gold. Just a brilliant cross section of folk living in a weird industry bubble

Yes.

...and I claim my £27.50

Lookm at the Giant blokes body languague - he's reading from a memorised script.

Why would the lizards want us to escape the gravity field of the sun?

1. The sun is dying slowly, in just a few million years it will be too cold. Hence the plan to turn the earth into a giant space ship - that's not the corporate Giant btw, they are all complicit. I suspect it will be unbranded or at the most have a very discrete head badge of some sort, probably plonked on top of Mt Everest.

2. Because they can.

You might as well ask why the lizards would want us all to ride bigger wheels. But I think I've fully answered that point already. 🙄

JCL - Member
I've said it on here before but if you really look into the reason why [s]650b[/s]29er came along it was only ever a pure marketing decision from companies

Dunno why they just can't say that having to make and market 26, 650b and 29er bikes is an expensive pain in the bum so we've just picked the middle one as a compromise (probably considered to be the most marketable as we can tell people we've got the "science and math" to prove they are better than 26 and as good as 29) and just got on with it.

Thanks BWD, I'll stop pondering and can go to work now 🙂

the minute the bikeradar logo came on the screen at 00:01 seconds it went off that wa it enought

you lot are only upset your not all virgins and cant believe this stuff

That lot will be first up against the wall come the (28.3) revolution!

Odd how so many different justifications, arguments, research programmes etc all came to fruition at exactly the same time - last year 650B was as rare as a rare thing, now everyone has simultaneously decided that it's the future.

As for whoever said '26 is fading fast, if not already gone' - well, spend a day doing a wheel size survey by the side of a busy trail then come back and tell me that.

Meh.

I remember buying a blur lt back in 2009 when.all the hype then was about long travel all mountain ( whatever all mountain means) bikes. Every few years there is a different hype to get us to spend our cash, which is expected really. I've still got the blur as well, good bike.

The industry has disappeared right up it's own fundament.

Once upon a time it was populated by people who really liked to ride bikes and that to a large extent shone through to the consumer. Now we're being spoon fed some dire marketing BS to justify ever more pointless forced upgrades - a case in point being Giant's recent dabbling with a brand new steerer tube diameter. I've made a point of not buying anything from Giant and see no reason to discontinue that.

The obvious point is that the 29" revolution hasn't taken the marketplace by storm, the 26" has refused to die and the resulting R&D nightmare of having to design two different versions of the same product line with differing geometries means that some middle ground has to be found.

I'm truly fine with this idea, but I'm not fine with the marketing BS. As a consumer I feel patronised and insulted.

Perhaps I'm being thick, but I'm struggling to parse what the Trek woman is saying. What happens at the 140mm travel cut-off? Is 650b better above that or below that?

Is she saying:

- below 140mm: 29er
- above 140mm: 650b
- no more 26"

I've made a point of not buying anything from Giant and see no reason to discontinue that.

Although its highly likely that what you do by will be made by Giant anyway.

Heres my general view in life:

When someone with a vested £ interested tells me something is better. I switch off.

This includes employees, sponsored employees, companies advising to buy their new product, companies who rely on huge advertising income etc.

mark.a, that was my understanding.

I was talking to a lbs owner yesterday, they stock Cube, Trek, Giant & Specialized - he's gone over to 29" on nearly everything, only keeping a few entry level 26" hardtails in stock, but has got 800 (yes 800) bike on order from the above suppliers (giants generally only full suss).

Thing is he said what he's got on the shop floor (1 or 2 sizes in each model) is about all the stock he can get until week 7 next year, they've pre-sold all the stock they're rolling out then, and no other manufacture runs planned.

He was very much pushing 29ers (mainly for xc) for all but short arses, reckons 650b is where it's at for downhill, enduro etc, so most full sussers available in 650b or 29", but really running down 26" wheeled bikes, recommending you get shot of all 26" stuff asap because it'll be worth nothing before long, and everyone will be on the bigger wheels etc.

Didn't have the heart to tell him I'd just bought some 26" hope hoops from his competitor around the corner.............

But the upside for 26" fans, he had a cannondale lefty and a merida full suss in stock, as new both of them for about a third of original price, because he reckons 26" won't sell due to the showroom being full of cart wheeled bikes.

The industry has disappeared right up it's own fundament.

+1
Getting hold of kit now is a nightmare with the massive proliferation of different "standards" and there seems to be a continuing desire to stop any cross-compatibility (between road and MTB or between 9sp and 10sp drivetrains for example).

You make a pair of wheels now, they have to be:
26" or 650b or 29"
centrelock or 6-bolt
QR, 15mm or 20mm Front; QR, 135/12mm, 142x12 Rear
That's 18 possible options there!

Forks have a plethora of different steerer tube options and you can bet that last years model was a specific bearing size which has now changed again to make it stronger/stiffer/lighter.

Even road bikes aren't entirely immune from that one although at least they have the decency to stick with one wheel size. 🙄

The funny thing is I actually get the 29er thing even though I don't have one. It's not just a question of 26" vs 29" but each has its own pros and cons depending on what sort of riding you do.

650b is so close to 26" there is so little difference I just don't get the point. It's not even that it is in between the two sizes so is the perfect compromise as someone on the video was spouting.

It's like they've woken up from suspended animation and realised that they actually need to do some real R&D rather than just following niche providers like Surly and On One.

The most powerful word in advertising is "NEW"

That's really all 650B is, something new.

Its really quite impressive how quickly the entire industry has dumped 26" though

I bought a 26" Turner 5 spot this year so "NEW" will have to wait a while for me

It must be true, they've done the math.

(Why do they say that and not 'we've done the maths'?)

Although its highly likely that what you do by will be made by Giant anyway

Noted - Giant manufacture almost everyone else's frames that are made in Taiwan...but at least they don't hold sway over what the likes of Specialized et al decide to market to a large extent.

Getting hold of kit now is a nightmare with the massive proliferation of different "standards" and there seems to be a continuing desire to stop any cross-compatibility (between road and MTB or between 9sp and 10sp drivetrains for example).

This, absolutely! Take fork axles for example; there was nothing wrong with the 20mm standard, but Fox decided for whatever reason that it needed to create two different incompatible standards for XC and AM/DH. Had they simply implemented 20mm across the board, manufacturing costs would have been reduced for everyone and that would have been that.

Rear axles are another case in point - 135mm x 12mm makes sense, but someone decided that only 142mm x 12mm would do. Are there any gains in stiffness, durability or manufacturing costs? No.

All I know is that it's a massive PITA to buy a fork because of the plethora of chassis options. This absolutely cannot be helping to reduce the cost to the consumer either.

but really running down 26" wheeled bikes, recommending you get shot of all 26" stuff asap because it'll be worth nothing before long, and everyone will be on the bigger wheels etc.

Yeah the 15mm axle thing is a PITA. There was nothing wrong with 20mm apart from Fox not owning a patent on it

The point is that their only concern is to sell bikes. The two years research done by Giant was to see if they could get a large proportion of their target market to swap over to a new wheel size. It makes absolute sense to them to do this. The spares for 26 bikes will be around for years. The quality of current 26 frames will last for years. The choice will be there for some time.

Once upon a time it was populated by people who really liked to ride bikes and that to a large extent shone through to the consumer.

When was this? I assume you mean when the dandyhorse was made to order by a master carpenter. As soon as money and marketing met the bike, the bullshit started.

Didn't have the heart to tell him I'd just bought some 26" hope hoops from his competitor around the corner...........

Thing is if he's a premium volume IBD shifting those numbers of bikes, he's probably not that bothered on you buying a wheelset that has a crap margin on before someone even mentions the word discount, or "such & such is doing online for £XX.XX".

Rear axles are another case in point - 135mm x 12mm makes sense, but someone decided that only 142mm x 12mm would do. Are there any gains in stiffness, durability or manufacturing costs? No.

Even road bikes aren't entirely immune from that one although at least they have the decency to stick with one wheel size.

interesting point, road has tried a few different sizes, think Moulton, or 650, but look at the position we are now in, virtually all Road bikes still use 700c wheels. Yes there were 27" but that got dumped with metrification as much as anything.

Looking at how badly the MTB market is doing, and to be blunt it is way off where it was, the market is road bikes now, is the constant introduction of new standards actually in the markets interest? I don't see any LBS being in the position to stock all the variations.

In my opinion the end result will be one wheel size, just for a stupid reason the size will be 650b if the marketing men get their way. In doing so pissing off a large number of riders.

I'm so confused!
Is it "Twentysevenfive"? "twentysevenpointfive"? "twentyseveandahalf"? or "sixfiftybee"?
I always thought "twentyniner" now I'm hearing "twoniner"!

My god. I'm taking up golf.

Santa Cruz have been pretty consistent on their 650b line- "We're not doing this for performance reasons, we're doing it because of market pressure from people who've never ridden a 650b bike and have no idea what they're talking about. We'd have made it 26 inch if we thought it'd sell"

Not that this is good, but at least it's honest.

PJM1974 - Member

Rear axles are another case in point - 135mm x 12mm makes sense, but someone decided that only 142mm x 12mm would do. Are there any gains in stiffness, durability or manufacturing costs? No.

In the defence of 142mm, it's a much more convenient standard- easier to fit wheels etc, when done right. 135 could be a pain. It's not a big enough change to get worked up about but at least it's a superior standard, not like 15mm forks. Also, it's simple to adapt for, every 12mm-axled wheel could easily be converted to 142, it just takes minor parts changes.

It's no wonder that bloke from Giant has a flat nose. Every time he opens his mouth I want to punch him.

i like the lady from Treks approach. Although I have never had a wheel kick out when I least expect it when using a 26. If anything I would have thought a 26 would be easier to lean the bike onto the outer edge of the tyre in a regular size thus reducing the likely hood of this occuring over a larger wheel anyway, although I understand that this is countered by advantage of the increased footprint of a larger wheel and in the case of 27.5 a slightly better rolling profile.

[i]i like the lady from Treks approach[/i]

What? Just talk complete shite for a minute?

It's no wonder that bloke from Giant has a flat nose. Every time he opens his mouth I want to punch him.

😀

DezB - that's relative to all the others. 🙂

Argh. Lovely CX bike, but I want to shove it up his arse.

"New innovative features like through axles and disc brakes"

At least have the good grace to either go red or giggle when you say that.

"The seatpost is fast when you need to power through the terrain"

lost. for. words.