Three times more cyclists die on the UK roads compared to Europe

Interesting article in the independent

Not entirely surprising though…

What a stupid article, to compare the UK with (probably) the 2 countries where cycling is the most popular – and for anyone who's not been to NL and DK, the 2 flatest countries…

The Dutch and the Danish have since, I guess before the war, built their entire road network around cycling (and scooters) – and there is no way that we will get near that, full-stop.

And we also know that in a accident the smallest 'vehicle' usually comes off worst, which is why you never see articles such as "drivers dies in accident with man"!

I think one of the biggest issues i see is **** dont have lights on and still think its fine to weave in and out of moving traffic. Some folk are also using woefully inadaqiate lights with flat batterys etc so might as well have non – yet i bet if they get hit they will be chasing insurance money from car drivers…..boils my piss……

Naturals selection at work.

I don't see what's stupid about comparing cycling road safety in this country, to countries where it is far safer to cycle.

Gives the government something to aim for perhaps? Or should we compare it to places where it's worse so we can be proud of how safe our roads are to cycle on?

When I lived in Germany it was a real pleasure to cycle on the roads – there was much better provision of paths for cyclists and the driver's seem to accept that you are a legitimate road user and not some eco-oik who is stopping him/her getting home to watch I'm a celebrity….

I'd love it if the government looked seriously into what countries like Germnay, Holland & Denmark are doing with regards to cycling.

I was just reading this and its based purely on hospital admissions which seems fine, but then goes on to say 66% of adult cases and 80% child cases don't involve a collision with a vehicle.

Could it be that Mountain Bikers have massively distorted this figure?!

Yep the amount of roadies I see not wearing helmets on the road is really silly.
Especially as most of the guys not wearing them are older guys.!
As you well know a cloth cap offers more protection than a helmet. That and riding like tw*ts in traffic..

The difference is the way cyclist ride in the UK comared to Europe.

In Europe they understand they are on a road and there's danger all around so ride accordingly.
In the UK cyclist seem to think it's acceptable to wear their ipod, weave in and out of traffic and ride as fast as possible everywhere.
If cars drove as erratically as commuters ride they'd be pulled for for dangerous driving.

blingbling has missed out that on the continent pro-cyclists are hailed as heros and gods and cycling is a major sport in france, italy, spain, holland…. and so awarness of bikes is so much greater.

I have ridden all over Europe and the only place I have had accidents on the road is in England and at the drivers fault (promise).

Lights, good contrast clothes and helmets are key! but also a much bigger awarness campaign for cyclists as well as motorcyclists.

It's a critical mass thing. More cyclists would force car drivers to alter their behaviour.

We have relatively few "utility" riders in the UK. Why? Look out the window.

berevementmonkey, I live in Belgium you clart so I think I should understand how cyclists are treated here more than most 😉

I also think your statement of cyclists being hailed as gods on the continant is a just a litte bit naive.
Pros maybe, but normal raod warriors? No chance.
So its not really relevant is it.

If cars drove as erratically as commuters ride they'd be pulled for for dangerous driving.

I see just as much dangerous driving as bad cycling. I think the main problem here is crowded roads and a bad attitude to cycling generally – as said they are seen as a nuisance. Cycle paths reflect that too with the way they are constantly stopping or losing priority.

Simon – nail head. Colleagues in large office with great cycling facilitys look at me like i have 5 heads when i suggest cycling the 3 miles to work from their house to avoid the traffic they complain about making them take an hour….. I give my self 45 miles to ride 8 miles and i am always early enough to have a cup of joe and a read of the paper before i start.

Yep the amount of roadies I see not wearing helmets on the road is really silly.
Especially as most of the guys not wearing them are older guys.!
As you well know a cloth cap offers more protection than a helmet.

Old roadies…. So people who've been riding for a long time then?
People who appear to managing perfectly well and staying out of the cycling death statistics then?

Talk about missing the point.

People in the UK don't die on bikes because of a lack of helmets, they die because they get hit by cars.

Note as well that in the countries quoted above, far fewer people wear helmets, yet not as many people die.

It's about the cars, the attitude of drivers rather than what the cyclists wear.

blingbling has missed out that on the continent pro-cyclists are hailed as heros and gods and cycling is a major sport in france, italy, spain, holland…. and so awarness of bikes is so much greater.

No it's not.

Colleagues in large office with great cycling facilitys look at me like i have 5 heads when i suggest cycling the 3 miles to work from their house to avoid the traffic they complain about making them take an hour…..

Yup.

No it's not.

I dunno when I was in France I was amazed by the patience and general good attitude of drivers towards cyclists over there.

It's about the cars, the attitude of drivers

Yeah it's nothing to do with the cyclists or the way they ride 😉

Regardless of whose right of way it is, if I think a car is going to cut across me or ty and squash me I slow down to make sure I'm able to stop if it does try it on.
I have no desire to be lying in the road like Gordon Brittas shouting "but it was my right of way!"

I'd rather be alive thanks.

I think rather too often people miss the bull rampaging in the china shop: the motor vehicle. Campaigning for cyclists to cycle in a safer way is like campaigning for women to wear burkas so they don't get raped.

The problem is the motor vehicle.

Until we design our infrastructure to support pedestrians and cyclists, until we really pressurise drivers to get out of their cars, and until we expand both goods and people railway networks, we will continue to see much higher cyclist and pedestrian death rates in this country.

The problem is the motor vehicle.

The problem is the motor vehicle.

Exactly – how many cyclist deaths would there be if you took away the cars? 😉

I think rather too often people miss the bull rampaging in the china shop: the motor vehicle.

I think you'll find it's the bull rampaging in his own field.

It's your choice to ride your bike in his field.

The article says that only a third of the cases (injured enough to go to hospital) involved a collision with another vehicle. It seems most British cyclists are quite capable of hospitalising themselves without getting anyone else involved 😀

ps. I love the cherry-picking of stats and the completely inaccurate headline – British cyclists are three times more likely to die or have an accident that puts them in hospital than our counterparts. I wonder what proportion of accidents elsewhere involve another vehicle?

bling bling… I have lived in Spain and France and cycled across other areas of europe over the 'few' years I have been a cyclist. So I also know :wink:.

I suppose a lot comes down to the individual rider… If a cyclist rides badly (but thinks they are riding well 'juan') then they will blame someone else!

Maybe I have been lucky on the continent!

Agreed with bling that would rather be upright on my bike than arguing with the large bit of motorised metal trying to get across me.

No BlingBling, the roads aren't their fields. If these bulls, to perhaps carry the analogy too far, were also destroying the fields, the hedges and trees in them, killing the people using the footpath around the field AND burning the sky with their farts, do you think we might make an effort to stop them, turn the bulls into frogs or something?

Yes, reading that over I definitely took the analogy too far!

Time for the straight jacket

bling bling… I have lived in Spain and France and cycled across other areas of europe over the 'few' years I have been a cyclist. So I also know :wink:.

I suppose a lot comes down to the individual rider… If a cyclist rides badly (but thinks they are riding well 'juan') then they will blame someone else!
Well first I am pretty confident I have spend enough time in France to know how people drive, but it might not be in the most relevant part of the country. Second I quite not get why you refer to me on the second part of your argument

Lights, good contrast clothes and helmets are key! but also a much bigger awarness campaign for cyclists as well as motorcyclists.

That is a Key point!

Cycle safety on UK roads comes down to ALL road users not just Drivers, if as a cyclist you don’t want to get hit, then make the effort to make yourself visible and be aware of your surroundings and the dangers present on the road…

The earlier post which said we will never have road layouts as cycle friendly as the rest of Europe was correct, but accident figures could well be reduced by the government throwing the sort of funding at cycle safety awareness that they do at Motorcycle and Car safety campaigns…

Heading off to work if it doesn't rain!

Only 4 miles and quicker/satisfying by Bike! Soem dangerous areas too.

You can wear all the safty gear you want but it won't stop a car hitting you.

(I always wear my lid-for what its worth!)

Thinking about it, I'd be really interested in how those KSI stats break down if only a third involved another vehicle – I'm guessing mountain bike injuries are included in that but where on earth do the rest come from?

cookeaa – sometimes you can be lit up like a Xmas tree and it won't make the blindest bit of difference.

A friend of mine who I pass everyday on our respective commutes (me in my tin box and him on his bike) wears a bright fluo yellow jacket and uses a very bright front light and a couple of very bright rear lights. They aren't 'off road' lights, but proper approved road ones, with side visibility bits and all that.

Yeasterday I got a roundabout coming out of our town and there was someone lying on the floor being seen to by a group people. There was a car parked across the roundabout and someone else directing traffic.
As I got closer I realised it was my mate who i see everyday. He'd been hit by a car that hadn't seen him on the roundabout – his bike was totally mangled and he was looking very still with blood all over his face.
I pulled up sharpish and went to see what was going on, then waited until the ambulance turned up before carrying on my way to work.

Turns out that he had entered the roundabout, and a woman arrived at the roundabout while he was on it, hadn't seen him and ploughed into him. Luckily he was thrown clear, as she hit his bike & not him and she then dragged his bike underneath her car until she came to a stop.

He's been riding for years and years, competes in many competitions and has a great deal of experience riding on the road. I don't know what more he could reasonably have done to make himself more visible to this woman, but she still didn't see him and drove into him.
But, I would rather be lit up than not and I would rather take a cautious approach to other road-users as well. There definitely needs to be more education for drivers and efforts to improve their awareness of cylcists (and motorcyclists) on the road.

zaskar – ive had mates be hit and had through no fault of own and had payouts cut due to not meeting bs standards for reflectors and stuff like that.

i ride defensively but im still of the opinion that no matter what i do its going to happen one day …. I ride a 150-200 in the city per week to work and shops and the pub etc.

Just learned that buses round here have extenal emergancy stop buttons on all corners and in the middle of the bus – locations have been noted and next mother **** to try and squash me will come to a stop 🙂 …….note im riding in the shared cycle lane….they overtake/come along side me then move in on me to stop at the bus stop ….. Generally they only go halfway past me – i think ill be well within my rights if they have come close enough that i can press the middle button ….. Atm i have to ramp on the brakes and go from 20 mph no nothing in seconds before im squashed .

I'm guessing mountain bike injuries are included in that but where on earth do the rest come from?

People learning on spuds.
People hitting potholes (and christ there's enough on UK roads)
People cornering too hard in the wet.
People avoiding animals.
the list goes on!

and had through no fault of own and had payouts cut due to not meeting bs standards for reflectors and stuff like that

This seems like a very odd thing to say.

Just learned that buses round here have extenal emergancy stop buttons on all corners and in the middle of the bus – locations have been noted and next mother **** to try and squash me will come to a stop

Again, while I can empathise with the situation, hitting the emergency stop just kills the engine, not the bus – all you'll do is make the driver lose control unless they're already stopped.

Why ? All i was stating is that having all the correct safety equipment while may not stop injury or being hit, it will have relevence to your compensation (presuming survival)

Eg about 6 months before leds became legit by law a guy i know was rear ended – despite having three rear lights none met the relevent bs standard at the time – imo they exceeded it )

Oh and coffeeking i didnt know if that would be the case or not. shoutiing at them through windows doesnt seem to work ! Local taxi drivers are getting better towards me – spoke to one at a red light the other day who said he was glad to see a cyclist taking visibility seriously.

As i said above no lights in the dark seems to be the norm rather than exception up here

a woman arrived

I would never have guessed 😉

You can wear all the safty gear you want but it won't stop a car hitting you.

Following that logic then am I just as safe dresses in black on a lightless bike?

Speaking as both a motorist and a cyclist; making yourself more visible does make a difference to your safety if a driver can definitely see you they have one less excuse for mowing you down…

As pointed out in another thread yesterday the legal requirements for cycle visibility are actually quite weak, being low level reflectors and a single bike mounted red light, which in close traffic could well be bellow the viewing eye line of many motorists (think of all those 4’8” Women in Range Rovers) I would personally like to see legal compulsion for cyclists to have either reflective material and/or a light mounted on their back/Rucksack or back of their head…
The cost is negligible (£2 for a cheap LED) but having something mounted higher up on the rider as well as the bike to make them more visible to someone sat in a car makes a lot of difference, some cycle commuters are almost bloody invisible to be honest…

I never go out without at least 1 LED mounted on the rear of my helmet and 1 on the bike especially this time of year when there is barely any daylight….

Yes you can blame Clarkson and Co’ and they don’t help Drivers attitudes with their various anti cycling comments, but quite frankly it’s a 2 way argument and you can’t deny that there are just as many arseholes on bikes as there are in cars…

Edit:

stumpy01 sorry to hear about your mate, hope he's OK, sounds like he was trying to make himself visible, I'm not saying these sort of incidents won't happen, just that their occurences could be vastly reduced if more cyclists made the effort to be seen by drivers, obviously once you're "lit up like an Xmas tree" you pretty much knacker "I didn't see you" excuse that drivers like the one in your friends incident met might produce, and it becomes quite clear who is and isn't paying attention…

This all ignore the heatlth benefits too.

On average, cyclists live longer.

you can’t deny that there are just as many arseholes on bikes as there are in cars…

Possibly dunno but even if that is the case cyclists aren't the ones killing people (with one or two exceptions). Cyclist being a nobber could result in selfharm (occasionally other people injured). Car driver being a nobber could end up with several people dead even pedestrians on the pavement.

That's the thing – on a bike you are not in charge of a ton or so of metal and glass.

So Donk you're saying the decission to ride sensibly and make yourself visible to other road users centres on self worth and the likelyhood of causing Death/injury to others?
And as a cyclist your actions essentially have next to bugger all consequences outside of your own mortality?

You do realise when you swerve without lights infront of a driver (who probably did not mean you any harm, and could well have been driving with due care and attention) that you've essentially knackered their day too, probably caused untold heartache for your own loved ones, all for the sake of a few quid on lights and an extra 10 seconds to check your over your shoulder and wait to turn, sounds pretty selfish to me…

You do realise when you swerve without lights infront of a driver (who probably did not mean you any harm, and could well have been driving with due care and attention) that you've essentially knackered their day too, probably caused untold heartache for your own loved ones, all for the sake of a few quid on lights and an extra 10 seconds to check your over your shoulder and wait to turn, sounds pretty selfish to me…

Yeah Donk you heartless bastard!!!!!!! 😛

Yeah Donk you heartless bastard!

🙂
I myself ride as carefully as possible whilst lit up like a christmas tree and bad cycling by others does annoy me but on an infintessimal scale compared to hate I have for the psychos in charge of 2 tonnes of vehicle tear arsing down the road endangering them and lots of others around them.

Oh and the example you mentioned cookeaa is on the hazhard perceptions part of the new driving test so due care and attention would involve looking for such things – fat chance! Not defending the cyclists actions tho (but it's hardly intended suicide is it?).