What are people’s experiences translating heart rate zones outdoors?

I ask as I’m getting quite confused trying to take succesful turbo sessions and replicate them outdoors (e.g. today was supposed to be 3 x 10 minute climbs instead of 3×10 threshold etc).

I think a lot of the confusion just stems from the difficulty in keeping the heart rate high at times, it only takes a little dip or gust of tailwind for me to ‘lose’ 10BPM and I sometimes struggle to get back up to where I want to be.

I understand that BPM is not the end goal so I suppose I should just be focusing on how the legs feel?

I was frustrated today as I should have been able to do my three climbs each at an average of approx 170BPM, but by second interval I was in trouble! Looking back, each climb was actually 13-14 minutes though, so realistically I should probably have been aiming for a lower BPM anyway (serves me right for just glancing at the KOM time and thinking I wouldn’t be far off, need to get the ego back in check!).

A good session otherwise…

Riding outside is totally different to indoors and has a much more variable nature. It sounds like if you couldn’t complete the intervals that you want too hard initially? Personally I’d focus on doing the workout well and accept HR is very variable depending on lots of factors. After all you are training to ride faster not perfect your HR! Perceived exertion is probably the most useful metric I reckon.

It sounds like if you couldn’t complete the intervals that you want too hard initially?

That was my thinking, although in truth if you remove the messy heartrate, my third climb was fairly consistent with my first climb, just felt harder, so arguably it was a fairly good session.

After all you are training to ride faster not perfect your HR! Perceived exertion is probably the most useful metric I reckon.

Yeah absolutely, fundamentally this is about pacing and figuring out how to pace variable climbs. Obviously I can’t just go full gas (my excuse for being 4 minutes off KOM…) as I couldn’t do consistent repeats that way. At least I’m learning, I didn’t just smash it wildly at the bottom because my legs felt good, I gave the pain a minute or two to creep up on me…

If I didn’t have a power meter I’d just go off perceived effort when riding outside. HR is way too variable for me. Biggest influence on HR for me is cadence. I can drop my HR significantly for the same power just by turning a bigger gear.

OK, good stuff, time to learn my RPE properly!

In truth it’s probably the best use of the HRM right now, giving me a context for how my legs and lungs are feeling…

I can drop my HR significantly for the same power just by turning a bigger gear.

But then you’re shifting your training from aerobic to muscular endurance. It’s good to understand how that works and the income/output vs what you want to achieve.

I have a power meter on the road bike but what it’s often good for is telling me how my base condition is as some days I just can’t hit the same power numbers. There is a big difference between doing a workout well rested on annual leave and after a stressful day or being up overnight with a baby. If you are hitting consistent speeds the last session should feel almost unmanageable, I reckon, to know you have got the most out of hill reps. I’m othen guilty of doing the last slightly slower than the first too as I’m fresh and raring to go at the start, Not so much on the 3rd, 4th or 5th intervals 🤪

I don’t really do any quantitative training outside, but have noticed out for a Z1 bimble on the bridleways my HR is often below 100. Never seen it that low on the turbo, even just noodling around on zwift listening to a podcast it seems to start at 120.

I guess it’s usually colder outside and the turbo just switches you on more.

Working out your RPE on the trainer, assuming your FTP and other levels are correct, is the way to go. I pushed a few workouts outdoors and did them on my MTB which has no PM so just went on RPE but also with an eye on heart rate. The Strava estimation of power was within 5% of what it would have been indoors. I ought to do some workouts outdoors on the road bike but do them by RPE then copy the FIT file, strip the power from it before uploading then compare all three values.

Indoors, my HR drifts by 10-15bpm across a workout. That’s pretty consistent: if the workout is 4x10min then the average HR for the final minute of each interval drifts by about 10bpm for an hour long workout and maybe 15bpm for a 90min one.

The empirical cycling guys explained the hr drift thing as demonstrating you are working hard. Can’t remember the exact physiological explanation but it’s a good sign!

https://www.polar.com/blog/cardiac-drift-effect-on-training/

https://turbotripping.com/effects-of-heat-on-exercise/

I don’t have a Pm on my MTB so RPE is a good skill to learn. I use that and HR to just the approximate effort when racing.

Does anyone know of some software or a website that can analyse power data from ride files? I’m going to start the TCCTP & for the CTS field test I need to measure my power for 2 efforts over 8 mins. Short of just recording a couple of 8 min rides on Zwift or Strava, I can’t see any other way of getting my average power for the period.

Could you not just generate a power curve for ride files in Strava/ TrainingPeaks and read off the 8 minute peak power figure? Problem with taking a ‘ride’ is that it might not be your best 8 min effort.

intervals.icu does quite a lot – currently free and will pull ride data off strava for analysis.

+1 for intervals.icu. Obviously you have to link it up to Strava (I think he imports from Garmin as well now if you don’t have Strava) Might not be as feature complete as WKO but it’s easy to use: click on the activity in the calendar, click “activity power” and you have your power curve. Just slide your cursor along to the appropriate duration.

I don’t really do any quantitative training outside, but have noticed out for a Z1 bimble on the bridleways my HR is often below 100. Never seen it that low on the turbo, even just noodling around on zwift listening to a podcast it seems to start at 120.

I am the same – 120 appears to be my minimum inside even doing 50w! It only goes to 150 when I am doing 250W! Must be a cognitive load thing or something.

🤣 TR do like their cognitive load 🤣 Not saying it’s not valid, but it does get mentioned a lot at times.

As for my training, my knee seems ok, but some of the fekking physio execises for it (lumbar rotation and it/piriformis twists) have put my si joint out big time. So where as my knee was a pain for riding, I can’t do anything just now due to the pain in my back and I’m off work with it too as can’t sit, lie or wander for any length of time. 😥🤬 Back at physio tomorrow.

Cheers for the heads up on intervals.icu

I have been wondering for a while how to add a backbone of structure to my week, and quantify what I need to do in order to progress and get better. I have not really ever had a training programme before [that I have followed]. Last couple of years I have managed to cycle about 4K miles – mixture of MTB, road, commute – the most competitive I get is the odd club TT, weekend club runs. I have challenged myself in the past with things like Keilder 100, Lakes JennRide, Mayhem etc.

I have subscribed to TR on and off for many years – but just can’t seem to get motivated around their plans. I end up matching TSS with Zwift rides, outdoor rides and hardly ever do the TR workout [as prescribed].

I have tried doing my own workouts in TP, and exporting to RGT – but I dont find that platform particularly motivating either.

In lockdown I have enjoyed ‘racing’ some events on RGT and also the Thurs night TTT – its been quite social over Discord within my club. I think that [and peer pressure] helps.

I decided to try Xert the other day. You select the type of rider you want to be [sprint to endurance], set a desired rate for improvement, upload 3 months history from Strava and off you go. Its very power meter based but can utilise data from HRM too. Differences to TR that i’ve found:
1. No threshold test – FTP derived from riding data [not a biggie for me but convenient].
2. No training plan as such, daily suggested workout based on ride history and aims.
3. Smart workouts – Trainer workouts adapt to your performance on the day while you are actually doing them.
4. Daily ‘motivational’ status update – are you on track to reach your goals? Also shows what you need to do today to maintain progress, and the effects of not training.
5. Global measure of your overall fitness [pro, elite, competitive, trained etc] + fatigue levels.
6. Some cross over of trainer power meter data to real world riding – not tried this yet but can calculate the ceiling of power that you have available to use during a ride [on Garmin] – to help pacing.

I quite like the format – the focus on what you need to do today to continue to train for improvement seems particularly good. Has anybody used it over an extended period? How did you find it? Does it work for you?

I think I’ve made an arse of this training malarkey.

Plan was to increase my general fitness on the bike by using sweet spot, intervals and zone 2 rides.

I have carried this out pretty much as planned but I think I messed my zones up at the beginning (based it on the good old 220 minus my age and then add a bit based on my limited heart rate monitor use). I’ve however seen my heart rate exceed 200bpm multiple times over the last few weeks, this is 20+ bpm over my supposed max. This means I’ve not been training hard enough to make the adaptation gains I could/should have made. I do feel like I have made gains but could I have made bigger ones?

Also after reading an article on trainer road I think I’ve been messing up by doing my weekend rides fasted. I thought I was doing a good thing as this would teach my body to use mostly fat (feel fine after). But I think I’ve been doing these too high an intensity and for too long so my body has been metabolising some muscle for fuel.

Lastly I don’t think I’ve been eating enough protein. I read it should be 2g’s per kg of body weight so that’s 160gs a day for me.

Lots for me to think about and change up.

Firstly the 220-age method tends to be way out for anyone who’s active. At 61 mine should be 159 but I can sit at 175 for several minutes, hmm.

Secondly, as noted in most of the TR output and elsewhere, using HR to set training zones is fraught with difficulties as it’s dependent on so many external variables that the effort equating to a HR of Xbpm one day could be X-10bpm or X+10bpm the following day. Far better to use RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) which sounds like it should be “airy fairy” but it’s surprisingly accurate once you’ve dialled yourself in.

Long distance rides (fasted or otherwise) should be below Lactate Threshold 1 (LT1), that is Zone 1 in the three zone model or zones 1 & 2 in the seven zone model. If you don’t have a power meter then LT1 is very roughly the same as VT1 (Ventilatory Threshold 1) and is the point where your breathing gets a bit harder and where you can’t hold a conversation, even if it’s just with yourself.

Thanks for the response Whitestone.

I think that my gauging of my efforts by RPE seem to feel about right so maybe I’ve been doing that bit right (despite of my heart rate not quite lining up). But I reckon that some of my fasted rides have been above zones 1/2 I’ll need to be conscious of this going forward.

I’ll also up my protein intake.

This is the British cycling suggested eating plan when training (I’ve added the approximate calorie amount based on experience and My fitness Pal).

– Breakfast – Porridge oats/eggs – 300
calories
Mid morning snack – Fruit/Yogurt – 300
caloriess
– Lunch – Wholemeal bread sandwich/jacket
potato/left over pasta from the night
before – 500 calories
– Mid afternoon snack – a piece of fruit/pack
off unsalted nuts – 200 calories
– Evening meal – A piece of chicken/
fish/other lean meat with
Ricee/Pasta/Vegetables – 600 calories
Pre bedtime – A milky drink before bed – 200
calories

Total 2100 calories

I’m not far off that diet wise but I’m struggling to see 3,000 calories in that list that (apparently) someone of my height and weight needs when training. I suppose I could just up the portion size 🤔 😜

Could do with a critique of my proposed ‘plan’. Currently I’m starting week 7 of the Wattbike base plan, I had intended to follow this up with one of their others but they are a bit uninspiring and outside cycling will be more appealing. The base plan has been quite enjoyable so far and achievable and I’ll see it out more or less(sometimes an outside ride will take preference over proscribed session). I’m also hoping to introduce some strength training when I can get back to the gym.

The target is to regain any cycling fitness I had and hopefully improve upon. The last four years has seen me more in the gym than on a bike and I reckon I’m easily 25%+ down on performance, coupled with a bit of added weight performance is not great.

After the base plan the idea was a basic 4 week periodisation type training with one long ride, one harder ride(either wattbike or local loop) and some hill work per week. Strength training would be on a maintenance type level. I seem to have a lot of info but struggle to pull it all together into a package or plan.

I’m toying with the idea of utilising the wattbike more with zwift, trainer road etc though may just wait till after the summer. The zwift racing does appeal mind you as I seem to be more motivated with something to aim at.

A quick question for @whitestone or anyone else that’s done the Cairngorms Loop

During training for the aforementioned loop, what did you do for your longest ride? I was roughly thinking of two reasonably long days (10hrs per day) back to back and one separate longer day out at around 15hrs.

Hi Piemonster, I completed the CL300 as part of the group ride last year. My training was mostly similar to what you proposed.

Try a get a couple of trial full weekend rides (or even a long Friday night ride, bivvy somewhere and ride back on the Saturday) with your race setup, even better if this can be done on parts of the actual route to help with familiarising yourself with it. As I went off route quite a few times. Aim for 2/3 race distance.

Some things that I learnt from my experience of both training for and riding the CL300:
– Don’t go too mad with your kit, a simple setup was perfect for me even though the bothies were closed last year so couldn’t rely on them for shelter.
– Test out your kit and how it is packed, this will save you a ton of time and frustration when tired. I prepared my sleep kit by putting my liner inside my sleeping bag that into my bivvy bag.
– The CL300 has a fair bit of climbing and a lot of it is pretty steep so when training, climb as much as you can, find the most horrible climb where you live and ride up and down it a lot.
– I lost 6kg training for the CL300 and it definitely helped.
– You will also be pushing your bike a lot too, I neglected this bit in my training and my calves were incredibly sore towards the end and took a week or two to feel better. So hillwalking/running would also be good training, maybe do some gym work too.
– When training closer to the event and whilst riding it, ride cautiously, you don’t want a silly OTB to end your attempt.
– Pace yourself, don’t get too excited at the group start and ride up with the fast guys if you’re aiming for a more relaxed pace (I set off way too fast but was fun riding up at the front for a bit).
– It was an amazing experience but not one I’d be rushing to repeat as it was so hard work.
– Take photos as it’s amazing scenery.
– Eat and drink constantly.
– Take every chance to eat proper food (soup and roll at Glenmore lodge, bacon roll at Aviemore petrol station, chocolate and milkshake from the shop in Tomintoul and
chicken burger at Braemar).
– Pack dry kit for sleeping in, this can be your next day kit ie bibs, jersey and socks.
– Smile as much as you can and try to enjoy it. It’s hard work but incredibly rewarding (was totally out of my comfort zone but I achieved it).

Good luck!

Ian

Pretty much as Ian says, I’ll add the following:

Pacing – if you can hold a full conversation then you are going slow enough. When I did the HT550 I thought I was just ambling along. It was only when I compared my Strava times with Neil Beltchenko (first back in 3d10hrs) that I realised I was almost as quick as him, overall just 10% slower riding time, and on quite a few long segments I was actually quicker but he didn’t stop for as long as I did and so finished nearly two days ahead of me.

I take a merino top and bottom baselayer for bivvying, it *never* gets used for anything else, that way I know I’ve something dry to change into when I decide to stop. This adds degrees to my relative warmth as I’m not having to dry my wet kit out whilst also trying to get to sleep.

I wear the same riding kit throughout – hang shorts up when bivvying to let them air. Socks will stay dry for about half an hour before the next burn crossing!

Practice using your kit, particularly your bivy kit, everything has its foibles and you need to know what works for you.

For bivvies, be inventive – I bivvied in an old horse box that I saw next to the track: dry and with a bed of hay to lie on.

Actual training – just ride lots and for as long as you can. It’s really just time in the saddle for these events but don’t overdo it. Mike Hall used to say that once you know you can ride 100 miles a day on back to back days there’s no point in repeatedly doing it as it takes so much out of you, save that for the actual event.

I’m sure we had a longish thread about the CL last year if you can find it.

Cheers both

Kit choice is dead simple, aided by going solo with a good weather window. I’m 90 minutes or so from BA and have a fair degree of short notice flexibility with work. My sleep kit a bag/mat/bivvy/pillow. Ive faffed around with tents/tarps but honestly I prefer the simplicity of throwing a bag at the ground. If its raining or blowing a hoolie I’ll wait until it’s not.

At the minute hills are a bit of an issue, that will ease soon hopefully,  although I have integrated trail riding into my training,  in part to improve bike handling,  in part to improve HAB ability.  Might be down to my psychology,  but I really really enjoy climbing,  I think it’s around 4000m which over that distance should be ok. I’ve lost 11kg which has helped. I may feel differently by the time Fealar Lodge is a thing.

A background of Fell Running, and plenty of XC running at the minute should help too. I think I’m more worried about my core and 2x15hr days on the bike, annoyingly I should be having 1:2:1 Pilates instruction but that’s not happening at the  minute.

The pacing, I’m pretty much lifting that from ultra distance multi day runs which translates to “this feels kind of effortless” at least whilst fresh. I’m guessing I will have a similar feed strategy too. Which for me involves a lot of “real” food consumed in small portions at least every 30 minutes. I’d take a handful of caffeine gels which I’ve found can bail me out of an energy deficit whilst other real food works its way in.

I guess I just need to keep putting the miles in, and start getting my head ready for when things arent going well and theres no one there to lift me up.

There is a plan to ride the Deeside Trail about 6 weeks before,  and actually tour the whole route about 3 weeks before a proper bash. That should set me up ok.

Sounds like you’ll ace it. You just need to find the perfect saddle, mine is the original SDG Bell-Air. Maybe order a few and try them out and return the ones that don’t fit well.

I think ace’ing it might be a stretch, hopefully I’m doing enough ‘right’ things now so I don’t spend most of the ride thinking “this stopped being fun several hours ago” 😉

Saddles are still up for debate, I do find my WTB saddle comfy enough for 7-9 hours but shifting position back is a little awkward. Although if there’s any riding too exciting I’m planning on getting off before falling off. Something I’ve logged mentally and practised so it comes naturally and efficiently without feeling like I’m stalling. The bike will be set up for this too, small seat pack, and flat pedals.

Pondering drivetrain choice too, either XT 12 speed which is lighter with a slightly better spread or Deore 11 speed which doesn’t need to be as well set up, so in theory more reliable.

I’ll try and dig out that CGL thread.

Probably this thread https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cairngorms-loop-300-group-start/

Sound ace Piemonster, and we’ll prepared,I’m quite jealous. I’ve done most chunks of the CL and had plans last year, now this year to do the HT550 touring.

Now if only I can get my knee (partial replacement) to behave long enough I’ll get to have some fun when I can escape this island. A decent ride Sunday had it blow up again.

In all seriousness I’m thinking I’m going to have to just be happy with shorter rides or get an e-bike 😢 Will try building up again once this settles though….

We all know training numbers don’t necessary equal race results but blimey I had a shock yesterday. In training – 10hrs a week – all power numbers are up across the board, and I’ve been doing repeated top end Z2/3 for 3hrs on the turbo no issues aerobically.

With nutrition, sleep, pre race prep and everything being the same as previous and good, I raced at Gorrick yesterday and was incredibly flat. No pace, power or speed although my HR was up at threshold / race pace. I feel battered today which is a sure sign of the effort made. No idea about that, I’d love to say it was first race issues, but that’s the same for all.

Have you been doing any race pace/above threshold efforts?

To be fair not many – about 6 sessions equally split between 2 x 5 mins and 4 x 1 mins during the last two weeks of taper – I rode a 1:40 Zwift race last weekend as a warm up. And my training has been about improving my engine and steady hill climb for Marathon rather that XC racing, so it kinda makes sense.

I am defiantly not at “Peak” from a training perspective, but it still shocked me how slow I felt. For reference, on pretty much the same course last August I was 7th. Cant vouch for the riders being the same though. I was about 3 mins per lap off of yesterdays 7th and 5 mins off the leaders.

Still, next two weeks is full of 5x5mins and sweet spot efforts so maybe it’ll come to me by the next one on the 14th and more so for the final one on May 1st.

How’s everyone getting on transferring their training to the great outdoors?

Didnthurt, gales, snow and a knackered knee means I’m not 😥🤬

How’s everyone getting on transferring their training to the great outdoors?

I has 2hrs of Z2 to do on Sunday. I went out on my XC race bike and enjoyed every minute of it. Same next weekend, and will be doing a few short intervals around the outside of Woburn Center Parcs on my Clockwork Evo during the taper week the week after 🙂

I did a 10 mile time trial this morning and it was a shock to the system to put it mildly – first of the season always is but this was easily the coldest test I’ve ever done, 2 degrees in a skin suit felt abs Baltic. Windy with some uncomfortable cross winds on a dual carriageway – never normally bothers me but I was on a new 90mm front wheel and it was iffy at times. And I missed my start.

Tried to put my back in to it but had nowhere near the focus you need to ride well in a TT, power was too up and down, position unsettled with the wind. Posted a middish 23 which is a forgettable effort but could have been worse given the circumstances. Back indoors for a bit before club ten season starts in a month.

Cheers for the updates. I was out yesterday for a 6+ hour zone 2 ride, the wind was hard work.

Not really tried intervals outside, not sure I’d be safe as I tend to push myself pretty hard on the trainer.

So I’ve been doing sweet-spot, shortish time trial and 2-6 hour zone 2 rides outdoors. Trying to stay away from what I used to do which was to ride as fast as I could for 2 hours (apparently not great for training).

Starting to feel more like my old self and finally seeing some sort of form returning. I’m looking forward to my rest week in a weeks time, this will be after 2x 4 weeks of structured training (mostly stuck to my plan).

So predictably I’ve come completely off the rails, it was always likely that injury would throw a spanner in the works however thankfully I would have been easing off the indoors stuff until autumn now anyway so have time to re-gain some consistency once bad backs and house moves are out of the way.

Interesting chat with my physio yesterday about breathing, I’d been told previously about the importance of meditative style nose breathing in relaxing sore muscles, especially in the lower back.

He went even further though and talked about training on the bike whilst only nose breathing. Talked about some (relatively) significant gains to be made just from learning to control your breathing and breathe in AND out through the nose. I tried it yesterday and it was quite an interesting session, if you can keep it under control you can get into a decent wee zone and it didn’t seem to hold me back chasing a 10 minute segment.

For easier outdoor stuff I’ll definitely continue practicing it. Anyone else do it?

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/dont-be-a-mouth-breather-100-speedcraft-air/