The electric car *charging* thread

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect to be able to charge a car up once a month, and not keep needing to hunt for available charging stations if going away from the local chargers, like somewhere away from urban areas.

You’ve said that you don’t drive an EV and aren’t interested in doing so, so you can be forgiven for having this point of view. But for anyone with a driveway, you just don’t use it like an ICE. No-one would want to run their battery down over the course of a month and then charge it up. That’s just not how it works, which is why no-one’s pursuing this option. And you don’t have to ‘hunt’ for chargers, they are all over the place. From personal experience – it’s not the issue you think it is.

The major issue is charging if you don’t have a driveway. But the solution to that is most emphatically not making cars with massive expensive 700 mile batteries – it’s on-street charging.

Finally – what is unreasonable is driving around spewing toxic fumes everywhere you go and thinking it’s fine and normal. I used to think this because that’s what we’ve always done, but it’s pretty terrible if you think about it. I still do it, for now, but I’m not buying another ICE car.

@ molgrips….my comments above were in response to 5labs asking for 450kw charging.

@countzero you sound like all the other people I know who are negative about EVs having never driven/used one/lived with one. Vast majority of drivers really really don’t need 500m range. 250-300 is ample as proven by multiple trips around Europe where the ultra fast chargers (~200kw) coincided with needed toilet stops and sometimes I had to abandon the sandwich search to my family to rush back and move the now ready to go car from the charger. Being a rep doing 1500 miles a week would not be a good match but there aren’t a huge number of those around these days with online home-based working.

@boomerlives has it….for 95% plus of the vast majority of peoples experience (people without drives I except are not a good match). The public charging isn’t perfect by any stretch (faults/too many apps, expense) yet, but I would hazard a guess neither was the petrol filling experience for the first 10-20 yrs of its evolution.

The solution to poor charging infrastructure is most emphatically not ICEs. It’s better charging infrastructure.

The more I look into the whole EV ownership thing the more I think that, if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla.

More chargers, more reliable, no apps or cards (just plug it in and walk away). They are even cheaper than many of the alternatives.

The more I look into the whole EV ownership thing the more I think that, if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla

That’s the answer to most EV related questions.

if you want a relatively hassle free experience and travel away from home, just get a bloody Tesla

I don’t think this is true.

You can only plug in and walk away at a Tesla charger, and there aren’t always Tesla chargers. If you drive past loads of non Tesla chargers just to avoid having to beep your debit card, you’ll end up either out of your way or queueing.

Outside Scotland, all I do is stop when the car tells me to stop, plug in, *beep my debit card* and then walk away. In remote Scotland, I need another card, sure, but in most cases you’ll need that with Tesla too because it’s not like there are super chargers in every remote village.

Don’t get me wrong, they’re good cars, but like Apple the early innovation advantage they had has mostly disappeared. No matter how many times I tell people that Hyundai will plan your route with live charger information and tell you where to stop, some still seem to think this is only a Tesla feature.

 If you drive past loads of non Tesla chargers just to avoid having to beep your debit card, you’ll end up either out of your way or queueing.

Why on earth would I do that? I don’t have a problem using contactless (or more likely Octopus Electroverse) if there isn’t a handy Supercharger but due to the extensive Supercharger network that’s rarely the case. Believe me the chances of having to queue at the Supercharger are way less than with any other charging network. Also, for me as a Tesla owner, the superchcarger network is getting on for half the price of the others.

I understand that Tesla have opened up the supercharger network to non-Teslas but am I right in thinking that you can only use it if you pay a monthly subscription and you can’t just turn up in your non-Tesla and get some electrons?

I understand that Tesla have opened up the supercharger network to non-Teslas but am I right in thinking that you can only use it if you pay a monthly subscription and you can’t just turn up in your non-Tesla and get some electrons?

They have only opened up something like 42 Superchargers in the UK for public use. Lots more on the continent have been opened to the public. You just need the Tesla app to use them. If you want you can pay a monthly subscription (you can take it out for just one month to cover a road trip for example) to access the same price as Tesla drivers but even if you don’t take out a subscription it will still be significantly cheaper than the other networks.

The only problem you’ll have is if the vehicle’s charge port is on the RHS of the car like VW. On older Superchargers the cables are only long enough to connect to cars with the chargeport on the rear LHS corner like Teslas so it means you would need to park in a bay and use the stall on the RHS which means you will take two bays out of action. Expect some hard stares from Tesla drivers if you try that at a busy Supercharger.

Personally I’m more than happy as long as the future has plentiful rapid chargers at 150+, that work, that aren’t stupidly expensive

right, which is why you (and most other people on this thread) have an EV – this thread is a bit of an echo chamber in that sense. EV uptake is growing, steadily, but is still pitifully low (under 17% of new cars), especially when you consider
1. the buy-up for new EVs has shrunk to near-zero (it is zero on the new frontera, for example)
2. EVs are way cheaper on a company car scheme
3. most people buying brand new cars are likely to have off-street parking, so home charging is less of an issue

17% is tiny, especially when you consider that most manufacturers will be charged £15,000 for every non-EV they sell if it accounts for more than 76% of their overall sales this year.

the vast majority (83% it seems) of new car buyers aren’t convinced that EVs are for them. Excluding enthusiast cars that make up maybe 2% of the market, it seems highly likely the a large number of potential owners are put off by the public charging approaches being poor (as stated, day-to-day home charging is fine).

Thanks @uponthedowns So you need to pay for a subscription to use the chargers, it just might be cheaper to do so if you use them a lot. Sounds fair enough.

Two things you often hear are: “we need lots more rapid chargers” and “we need cars with 500 mile range”. But these statements are in conflict. If you were a business would you really invest millions of pounds installing lots of rapid chargers if you thought people were going to be driving cars with a 500 mile range that they charge almost exclusively at home?

The solution to poor charging infrastructure is most emphatically not ICEs. It’s better charging infrastructure.

How are you going to solve that for folk like me?  I live in a flat.  there is very limited on street parking – room for maybe a dozen cars for around 60 flats in the block.  Parking in general in the area is very limited ( and charged for / residents permit only)and the local chargers ( 6 of) are limited to 4 hours use only?

In many parts of the country owning your own electric car simply is not practical and its very hard to see how it could be

the car club model could and does work.  But personal ownership?  Nope

So you need to pay for a subscription to use the chargers, it just might be cheaper to do so if you use them a lot. Sounds fair enough.

No you don’t need a subscription to use the Superchargers. You just need the Tesla app. Set up a payment method on it then hit the pizza box menu and pick “Charge your other EV” and it will show you all the public Superchargers available to non-Teslas. You only need a subscription if you want the same price as Tesla drivers get. Also Superchargers have variable tarrifs based on how busy the Supercharger is and what time of day it is. In the last year my Supercharging sessions have ranged from 33p per kWh to 55p per kWh. Busy Superchargers also charge overstay fees if you stay connected past 100% charge which IMHO every network should implement.

How are you going to solve that for folk like me?

Can you fill up with fuel at your flat ? Nope, so you stop somewhere to do that when you need to.  Same thing with electric cars but maybe the chargers are at a place where you’re going to spend 20-30 mins, maybe they’re en route.

How practical do you think that would be?  EVs can work if you can charge at home.  When you cannot then its impractical

How are you going to solve that for folk like me?

It’s actually fairly simple but requires government level commitment to making this work.

As a starting point – clearly when you’re not driving your car, it is by default parked somewhere. And that somewhere is unlikely to be somewhere that could not have a charging post installed.
What’s needed then is an expansion of publicly accessible relatively low power (7kW max) chargers to cover a significant percentage of places that people park cars – public carparks, workplaces, kerbside (couple of sockets per lamp-post where they exist, addition of smaller charging posts where not) – it’s all just off the standard 240V supply so the electrical infrastructure is largely there.
Note that not EVERY parking space needs these, as you don’t need to charge all the time*.

These then need to be charged at a suitably affordable rate – i.e. means the govt need to be involved in this rather than leaving it to the open market.

* Assume 12,000 miles per year. Assume 3.5 mile/kW.Hr. Assume 7kW charge rate.
That’s 33 miles per day, so 9.4 kW.hr per day, i.e. you need to charge for less than 1.5 hours a day on average.

Sorry @uponthedowns I meant to type “so you don’t need to pay for a subscription” but the don’t got lost somewhere ? Thanks for clarifying though.

Point missed

If you have no dedicated parking then you have to find a random spot.  If its an EV then you have to find a random unoccupied EV charging point.  The number of EV charging points needed would be huge.  Far better for locations like mine is the car club model

Rubbish.

Do you ever go shopping? Do it then.

Buy a coffee? Sit in and charge it.

Fast food? Pick one with a charger. Go on a trip? Fill on the way there or back.

If you don’t want one, that’s perfectly fine but to say it just won’t work is patently cobblers.

Far better for locations like mine is the car club model

That’s true for many urban situations regardless of whether the car is an EV or ICE.

Although if I was part of an EV car club I’d want there to be “sufficient” charge in the car when I picked it up, so that’d probably end up with most people needing to charge it when they used it. But, as above, they can probably do that when they’re stopped somewhere for another reason.  (Same expectation of an ICE too, so someone would to stop somewhere to fill it up rather than have the refuelling happen while they’re doing something else)

a large number of potential owners are put off by the public charging approaches being poor

At the risk of being an echo chamber – how are these large numbers of potential owners put off? It’s not by actual personal experience as they’re not owners. It’s by the disproportionately large voice (press and ICE enthusiasts of a certain age) that the anti or non-owning brigade have.

I think the lack of sales is more to do with early adopters have all bought, remaining people don’t understand how it can work and are put off by all the above noise rather than the reality most owners experience most of the time.

I’m not a fanbois for the sake of it and quite happy to concede that EVs are not a convenient panacea for all (see TJs situation above). But for me and almost every one of my friends who have them, they seem to work really well and should be a large part of the transport mix for this and all countries. Nice to drive, quite non polluting. Don’t require the v energy hungry and polluting (at extraction and use) fossil fuels.

Make the range of public chargers (7-150/200 kw) work in the right locations and numbers via simple contactless or one unified app. Simples….or maybe this thread shows it’s not!

How are you going to solve that for folk like me?

Every on-street parking spot has to have a charge point that pops up out of the ground – or you can plug into a lamppost. There’s a lot of development around this, but not a lot of funding for it.

Rubbish.

Do you ever go shopping? Do it then.

Buy a coffee? Sit in and charge it.

Fast food? Pick one with a charger.

I’m pro EV, as you know, but I don’t think any of those would work. None of those activities take long enough to provide a meaningful amount of charge unless you are rapid charging, and it’s not really practical to install that many rapids. What we need is on-street slow chargers as above. Of course, ideally we’d have better public transport and far fewer cars – just to pre-empt TJ – but that’s not what the thread is about.

In fact, TJ you should be in favour of outright banning of ICEs because it would force people who live in city centres to take public transport – isn’t that what you want? 🙂

Do you ever go shopping? Do it then.

you’d need a very large bank rapid chargers (so they can do a weeks worth of charging in 30 mins) in urban supermarkets. It could be done, but its a long way from the “4 slow chargers at my local tesco hypermarket” we have today

I assumme you have thought about the funding for this molgrips?tens of millions of chargers

For me ev or ice makes very little difference in cities.  Both create pollution and congestion and make life unpleasant for the majority

Point missed

If you have no dedicated parking then you have to find a random spot. If its an EV then you have to find a random unoccupied EV charging point. The number of EV charging points needed would be huge. Far better for locations like mine is the car club model

No. Point not missed at all. In fact I think you’ve missed my point in pursuit of your “have less car ownership” model. Which is an interesting debate, but not the one that we’re having. It belongs in a “less car ownership” thread rather than this one.

Re your “have to find a random spot” point – the point is that – yes – random spots would have chargers too. They would need to be installed just about EVERYEWHERE.

The whole point of “install lots of chargers” is that – yes – there are a very large number of chargers installed. They therefore need to be small, simple, cheap and realistically mass produced. The argument of “but you’ll need to install so much infrastructure” was probably made when electricity or mains water systems were first introduced.

Ok – a charger at every kerbside potential parking spot plus all public car parks?  tens of millions of them.  How is that to be funded?  Would need massive amounts of new cabling etc etc

How would you deal with those who installed their own home chargers complaining about how unfair it is they have to pay

Its not insurmountable technically but its ruddy difficult practically and politically

Its not insurmountable technically but its ruddy difficult practically and politically

Yes – that is exactly my point.

How would you deal with those who installed their own home chargers complaining about how unfair it is they have to pay

I’d imagine the easy way is that the flood of public chargers are charged out at a rate which includes some overhead to cover the cost of install in the long run.

normal car drivers are all subsidising EV owners today via the various tax breaks EVs get (company car tax, low\no VED, no fuel tax, no congestion charging, cheaper parking, etc), so I don’t think thats any different

Fair enough.  I find the dismissal of the huge practical issues irritating.  Far too much pie in the sky.  I think EVs of the type we have now are going to be a dead end and a short lived one.

I think the car club model is a far better solution

I think I’ll sign up for a Tesla subscription for a month. I reckon I’ll be able to recoup my £9 subscription fee if I use 100kw from their chargers. I’ll to use nearer 200kw anyway.

I think EVs of the type we have now are going to be a dead end and a short lived one.

Really? You’re expecting some sort of amazing new technology is going to be easier than putting plugs on lampposts?

Would need massive amounts of new cabling etc etc

Most streets already have electric cables in them that supply the houses and the lamp posts.

I find the dismissal of the solutions to the practical issues irritating.

There is a pretty common theme amongst the anti-EV community. A strong dismissal of the solutions to the problems, combined with a ready acceptance of alternative technologies (Hydrogen or continued use of fossil fuels being the most common ones) which actually have much more fundamental and harder to solve problems.

It’s not either/or tj.  I agree that for city dwellers without off street parking, owning a vehicle of any description is an expensive hassle.  I would like to buy my daughter a car if it was remotely practical, but it isn’t.  But for us, it works.

Really? You’re expecting some sort of amazing new technology is going to be easier than putting plugs on lampposts?

No – I am expecting private cars to become less and less common.  ( hoping? 🙂 )

Most streets already have electric cables in them that supply the houses and the lamp posts.

Which will need upgrading significantly for the extra current required.

I find the dismissal of the solutions to the practical issues irritating.

When the solutions are pie in the sky?  🙂

Two of my colleagues have taken delivery of EV’s and do not charge at home. Neither can be bothered to get a point fitted. Both do 20,000+miles and manage with a little bit of change of their routine. Not a revolution, just a tweak. It’s not that hard.

I think the car club model is a far better solution

That would be a bigger change for a lot of people, but you would embrace that? Shows you can bend when you want to.

I agree that for city dwellers without off street parking, owning a vehicle of any description is an expensive hassle.

EVs more so

Its one of my issues with this – suburbanites forgetting the difficulties in cities

In cities IMO the car club model is a better one than individual ownership

I am not anti EV in toto.  However I do understand they do not solve the problems with private motoring in cities

I have been a car club member but it does not work for me.  I do not own a car and never have.  I hire one when needed  I have friends who are car club members and it works for them ( I tend to use a car for long out of town trips – not for round town)

Edit – my local car club now has EVs  thats a fine idea

suburbanites forgetting the difficulties in cities

Cities have rapid chargers, out of town retail places have rapid chargers, it’s not that hard.

I do not own a car and never have. 

Maybe formulating car infrastructure to suit you is a wasted endevour?

The lampost thing above is the easy way. My car has plug and charge – plug it in and walk away and it works automagically and the cost goes on my card. It’s not the most difficult thing to sort out.

Opening peoples minds is harder. Much harder.

Which will need upgrading significantly for the extra current required.

You might be surprised.

There are problems, with solutions that need to be found; but don’t forget that ICEs spewing fumes everywhere is one of those problems, not a solution.

How practical do you think that would be? EVs can work if you can charge at home. When you cannot then its impractical

What a massively sweeping statement that unsurprisingly is wrong.

I’ve driven over 30k miles in the last 18 months and cannot charge at home. There’s no denying I’ve had to change my habits, but they’re just different, not worse.