No doubt he will be the hero who cast aside the Scottish anchor that was holding us back.

And would the next Westminster govt, and especially the Tories, do all in their power to make the separation process as difficult as possible for the Scots?

Depends how bad the immediate economic fallout from a yes vote would be. The turbulence could definitely cost the Conservatives any chance of an outright win in 2015, hence the calls for them to try to get into bed with UKIP from some of their MPs.

Great news for the tories in 2019, though. Just what will Labour have to do to win?

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One of the main outcomes would be the large northern cities would immediately be demanding a level of devolution and autonomy from Westminster.

We'd be condemned to permanent Tory hegemony, when there isn't a single Tory MP and any of the northern cities, so that situation of a democratic deficit would be as ultimately unsustainable as it has proved to be in Scotland

It's the least of of his issues.

Indeed Binners, I doubt if the effects would stay confined to the north of Hadrian's Wall.

And Drac; I think this WILL be his defining, overriding issue, unless you are referring to him escaping with his life form an angry mob...

And Drac; I think this WILL be his defining, overriding issue, unless you are referring to him escaping with his life form an angry mob...

He's withdrawn millions of pounds of benefits, food banks have increased, the NHS is being sold off and staff haven't had pay rise beyond 1% since he came into power and that's just for starters. Losing Scotland no one cares about.

He can - has - got away with that; but losing the oil? No...

Just what will Labour have to do to win?

Same as they have always had to do, be electable to middle england. It's a fallacy that the Labour party needed the scottish constituancies to win an election. Every time they've been in power they had a majority of the seats in England.

Who knows?
Some companies currently based in Scotland have already announced they'll be moving out if there's a Yes vote - Standard Life and Bank of Scotland being 2 significant examples. Being financial you'd expect them to move to London where the skill base is - therefore greater inequality for UK but good for London...

I suspect it's bad news for any foreign investors who wanted to put money into Scotland - they'll either pull out completely and put money into another country, or find somewhere in UK to put it.

I suspect demand for other regions in UK to have more independence from Westminster - not a bad thing per se but the economic argument will need to stack up if that's the provide opportunities for the people, rather than greater debt burdens - North West seems to be the best candidate in that respect...

In the immediate term I would expect Sterling to fall, foreign investment to stall and interest rate on government bonds to rise (making our debt harder to pay off) simply from the lack of certainty about UK economic future and lack of clarity on the consequences...

UK is in an economic mess already - can't see how a Yes vote is likely to improve things

I think 'Labour' will unelectable for a generation until Blair and Brown's legacy has faded.

He can - has - got away with that;

I'm sorry I didn't realise they'd been another election.

Some companies currently based in Scotland have already announced they'll be moving out if there's a Yes vote - Standard Life and Bank of Scotland being 2 significant examples.

Talk is cheap. Saying it, and actually doing it are 2 completely different things. Big companies are always threatening to move, when trying to get their way, by holding a gun to the head of governments. They never actually do though! Its just attempted blackmail. And pretty transparent for that.

Anyway... isn't the toad like one setting corporation tax much lower than London? That all companies like banks care about. The bottom line

SCOTLAND plans to have some kind of referendum that could take place as early as next week.

It is understood the referendum is about politics and has been pencilled in for a week on Thursday, or possibly the Thursday after that.

Bill McKay, a Scottish person, said: “Yeah, we’ve all been talking about the politics referendum for, let me think now…

“Three and a half years.”

English politicians said that if the referendum actually happens, it will no doubt involve Scottish people either wanting or not wanting something or other.

Chancellor George Osborne said: “We’re going to offer them Barbara Windsor

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/scotland-having-some-sort-of-referendum-apparently-2014090890295

Some companies currently based in Scotland have already announced they'll be moving out if there's a Yes vote - Standard Life and [b]Bank of Scotland[/b] being 2 significant examples.

Name change imminent?

I think 'Labour' will unelectable for a generation until Blair and Brown's legacy has faded.

I would say until they stop selecting awkward teenagers as party leaders...

In the short term it'll cause chaos. I think Cameron in particular will struggle to survive as it he'll be blamed for allowing it to happen as it's on his watch and buck stops with him. Miliband will also get his fair share of flak as it'll cripple the labour party in all sorts of ways. In the end what will become apparent is a shocking naivety and complacency at the highest levels of government and the British political establishment. They've basically sat back and thought that all they had to do was tell a few scare stories and the obedient scots will fall into line. Now they've woken up to the reality and you can smell the panic. It's incredible really, but not surprising.

Drac - Moderator

He's withdrawn millions of pounds of benefits, food banks have increased, the NHS is being sold off and staff haven't had pay rise beyond 1% since he came into power and that's just for starters.

binners - Member

One of the main outcomes would be the large northern cities would immediately be demanding a level of devolution and autonomy from Westminster.

The Tories will just move further to the right - Boris will dismantle the NHS and scrap the BBC.
And somehow, it'll all be our fault.

It's a fallacy that the Labour party needed the scottish constituancies to win an election. Every time they've been in power they had a majority of the seats in England.

Well that's plainly untrue:
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ge74b/seats74b.htm

or how about this one where the Conservatives easily won in England
http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ge74a/seats74a.htm

In the short term it'll cause chaos.

Chaos or some mild upset?

Even if the Scots vote No (and I still think a narrow No is likely) Cameron and co in coming so close to losing the vote will be damaged goods. Perhaps their only salvation will be that Boris has yet to be elected and Milliband is so awful.

zippykona - Member
No doubt he will be the hero who cast aside the Scottish anchor that was holding us back.

This

What depresses me is the idea of 'us' and 'them', the idea that Scottish people are different.

If Scottish people aren't British, then what are Welsh or Northern Irish people? Are we really all on our own? Is there no togetherness, solidarity, unity? Looks like there isn't. Well **** you all too.

In the end what will become apparent is a shocking naivety and complacency at the highest levels of government and the British political establishment.

Absolutely bang on! I just hope this is a real wake up call to them. The lot of them - Labour as well as the Tories - have allowed a huge chasm to develop, over decades. A chasm between how they perceive the rest of the country (outside London) and the actual reality.

You can see the shock on their faces, as they digest the fact that a large percentage of people would rather take their chances with a leap into the unknown, than stick with their smug, complacent, patronising, London obsessed ideologies.

They must also be realising that that isn't restricted just to Scotland either, and is representative of a feeling of bitter resentment in the rest of the country at being constantly ignored by a Westminster who's only interests are london and the South East

If I was Scottish, then voting Yes would be an absolute no brainer!

Edit: Molly - This isn't about nationalism. This is about freeing themselves from a insular, self-serving Westminster elite that has no interest in 'the regions'. Theres plenty of places in England I think would vote for exactly the same if given the option

One thing that's confusing me is the oil issue. Is it not the UK's oil not just Scotlands? Will we have to roll into Scotland in tanks to get our share? It couldn't happen here we're far too civilised.

40 less Scottish labour MPs mean that Cameron will probably get re-elected. Whilst I don't disagree with many of the above posts, the economy is on the up and unemployment down in England (Tory areas), hence the Tories will probably get re-elected.

I think about my business area and it will be bizarre for Scotland. All the government organisations / ruling bodies etc... and centralised expertise are in England. I presume that these will all be eventually lost to Scotland.

Chaos or some mild upset?

Well chaos in an administrative and financial sense, rather than a 'people panic buying fuel and bread' sense. I may be wrong but I really don't think any of the major parties has thought it through entirely, they've just assumed it'll be a no vote. I'd certainly expect the markets to slump. There's already a mild panic today on the currency markets with stirling taking a dive, and that's just based on conjecture and mild worry, imaging what it'll be like if they actually vote yes?

Talk is cheap. Saying it, and actually doing it are 2 completely different things. Big companies are always threatening to move, when trying to get their way, by holding a gun to the head of governments. They never actually do though! Its just attempted blackmail. And pretty transparent for that.

Anyway... isn't the toad like one setting corporation tax much lower than London? That all companies like banks care about. The bottom line

You reckon? Standard Life actually tried pretty hard to point out they weren't attempting blackmail and claimed to be totally impartial - I'm sure they'd have kept such plans secret were it possible to do so. You don't think that the regulatory framework might force them to do move a lot of their business to the country they're trading in? I suspect banks also care about the law (at least the parts of it they can't avoid), such as the EU law about being based in the country where they do the majority of their business.

They will actually do it, because it makes no sense for them not to do so. If you don't believe that you've probably been reading too much WOS stuff.

molgrips - Member

What depresses me is the idea of 'us' and 'them', the idea that Scottish people are different.

If Scottish people aren't British, then what are Welsh people? Are we really all on our own? Is there no togetherness, solidarity, unity? Looks like there isn't.

The cult of the individual, isn't it?
If you discredit the idea of collective good and promote the idea of the self above all else, then this is the consequence.

molgrips - Member
What depresses me is the idea of 'us' and 'them', the idea that Scottish people are different.

Isn't that what Nationalist politics is all about though 🙁

How many Scottish deny being British? Or did, before the referendum debate?

Isn't that what Nationalist politics is all about though

Yes. "We don't want to throw our lot in with you and work to change for the better, because YOU are different to us, you're from somewhere else"

If Scotland votes yes in the referendum there will no doubt be a lot of economic pain in the short term for the whole of the UK which I suspect will leave the Scottish with very few friends South of the border for a very long time. It is rather depressing that so many in Scotland seem happy to treat many years of shared history and achievement with such contempt and walk away from what has been a very productive relationship without a second thought.

Long term I reckon it could be good for the UK as a whole, providing the Government is clever in how it handles things (unlikely I know); money which is now spent in Scotland could be used to make some meaningful infrastructure investments in many Northern cities and the South West where industry leaders have been asking for help for years. Scotland has sucked up a lot of time and resources in recent years so I see no reason why the remaining parts of the UK shouldn't use the freeing up of resources and cash to bolster the industries that remain in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect a break from Scotland may also be one of the first steps towards the UK leaving Europe as those political parties who lean to the right will end up with a greater majority over Labour and the Lib Dems.

RaveyDavey - Member

One thing that's confusing me is the oil issue. Is it not the UK's oil not just Scotlands? Will we have to roll into Scotland in tanks to get our share? It couldn't happen here we're far too civilised

I'm guessing that if Scotland breaks free the oil is ours in the same way Birmingham is yours;) geography and all that.

the way the armed forces are these days a bunch of bams in their fast and furious corsas will be able to hold you off at Gretna.

If the result is 49% Yes and 51% No, wouldn't that be the worst possible outcome for all involved?

Some companies currently based in Scotland have already announced they'll be moving out if there's a Yes vote - Standard Life and Bank of Scotland being 2 significant examples.
Name change imminent?

The Bank of [b]Not[/b] Scotland

Is there no togetherness, solidarity, unity?

They're just replacing being British with being Scottish, still both collectives!!

Counterbalance

Can Salmond survive a No vote?

He'll be the bloke thats torn a rift down the very middle of the community, divided families into us and them, patriotic and unpatriotic, the blame and recriminations will cast a shadow over Scotland for years to come.

If Scotland votes yes in the referendum there will no doubt be a lot of economic pain in the short term for the whole of the UK which I suspect will leave the Scottish with very few friends South of the border for a very long time. It is rather depressing that so many in Scotland seem happy to treat many years of shared history and achievement with such contempt and walk away from what has been a very productive relationship without a second thought.

So, you've completely missed the point of the referendum then? Don't take it so personally, it's not about you, it honestly isn't.

They will actually do it, because it makes no sense for them not to do so. If you don't believe that you've probably been reading too much WOS stuff.

I have indeed been reading World of Spectrum, but I'm not sure of the relevance here?

They're just replacing being British with being Scottish, still both collectives!!

Yes, but they're excluding us from their collective. That's like saying you're still sharing your toys if you take them away from half the nursery.

it's not about you, it honestly isn't.

How can it not be? You're saying you're different to us.

I think the majority in England will just be glad when its over. Im sick of bloody seeing it in the news

Except that it won't be over, whichever way the vote goes.

peterfile - Member
Don't take it so personally, it's not about you, it honestly isn't.

Yes it is, by definition.
It can't not be.

I have indeed been reading World of Spectrum

Wow, there's a whole world there I didn't know about.

No, it's about the Scottish people being so disillusioned with the Westministercentric union political model that they want to get away from it.

So, you've completely missed the point of the referendum then?

No, but I am rather surprised by the level of ignorance being displayed by some of the yes campaign supporters. I have family in Scotland and my relatives who have never left Scotland and traveled around the UK are the ones who hate the English (despite not really knowing any) and will undoubtedly be voting yes. They have also, perhaps unsurprisingly, never traveled around their own beautiful country.

The referendum seems to be a vote that was demanded by the ignorant and will only benefit the ignorant. God help them all.

I'm Welsh which pretty much puts me even lower down tbe food chain than you Scots. I hope you do get independence but I'm convinced it will cause massive problems for years to come. It's not all about england as the media would have us believe. The rest of us have a vested interest as well.

It's turning into a right mess. A narrow yes or no is the worst result for Scotland or the rUK. Fails to deliver a convincing mandate for either side, and fuels resentment for years to come.

I thought I was British, but I'm not sure any more.

A narrow yes or no is the worst result for Scotland or the rUK

Disagree. A narrow no vote will force something to be done, because Westminster will have to acknowledge how divisive Westminster-centric politics are. Likewise any yes vote.

I'm hoping for a yes vote as long as when they go they stay gone and don't come back cap in hand when/if it all goes tits up. They've made it clear they want out and besides we've already enjoyed almost all their delcious oil so no harm done if they leave.

Frankly I'd love to see an independent state of London and the home counties and the rest of the country can eat cake.

Frankly I'd love to see an independent state of London and the home counties and the rest of the country can eat cake.

That pretty much already exists.

Yes it is, by definition.
It can't not be.

I will say it again....it's not about you.

This is about Scotland and how it is governed. This has no bearing on or reflection on you.

I spent most of my adult life living in England, there isn't a part of me that harbours any dislike or ill will in relation to any other part of the UK.

I spent most of my adult life living in England, there isn't a part of me that harbours any dislike or ill will in relation to any other part of the UK.

Not even people from Essex?

hahaha, good point binners 🙂

I will say it again....it's not about you.

This is about Scotland and how it is governed. This has no bearing on or reflection on you.

Oh but it is about the rest of us. The whole of the UK will be impacted on by this vote. In fact the Pound has fallen massively this morning because of the uncertainty.

Not even people from Essex?

Oi! I was born there and it is a very pretty county once you get away from the towns where the orange people live.

This is about Scotland and how it is governed. This has no bearing on or reflection on you.

I spent most of my adult life living in England, there isn't a part of me that harbours any dislike or ill will in relation to any other part of the UK.

Only at its purest level. Unfortunately people will vote yes, or no, for a myriad of reasons. And not all as reasonable or thought out as yours.

And that's not a poke at the Scottish electorate. It's a poke at every electorate everywhere.

Not even people from Essex?

Luckily, despite coming from Essex, I've moved to a county which has taught me the filthy truth about Lancastrians. 🙂

This is about Scotland and how it is governed. This has no bearing on or reflection on you.

It's about what the UK is. I'm a UK citizen, so yes it does.

It's like saying me getting divorced* would have nothing to do with my wife.

Saying 'it's nothing to do with non-Scots' is the biggest nationalistic argument there is. I dislike nationalism.

* I'm not

For context I was born in Glasgow, live in Cumbria but work/holiday a lot in Scotland.

The markets are not going to like this so short term will be painful.
The whole of the UK will go backwards again.
Medium term as a Cumbrian I think this will be positive for us and the rest of the UK will bounce back.
I think it will take up to fifteen years for Scotland to know if this has been worthwhile.

To be frank I hope they vote yes as a rift has been formed. As much as many Scots want to leave the rest of the UK does not seem to care much if they do.

The biggest, most widespread effect for most of us will be a fairly rapid (faster than Carney would otherwise have wanted) rise in interest rates, to shore-up sterling as it is already weakening and will fall further on a YES vote.

This will be more acute if Scotland decide to walk away from their share of the national debt. As has been pointed out by many people, doing so would condemn them to instant financial pariah status from day 1. Not a smart move, but then none of this looks particularly well conceived.

I think there will be many in the Conservative party who will question the wisdom of facilitating the referendum, so there will be naturally questions asked about Cameron's Leadership. I think he will survive it.

I don't see a Yes vote making a Labour government more likely in 2015, all the UK parties supported the No campaign so a Yes vote is an equal defeat for them all. UKIP's popularity has forced all the major parties and in particular Labour to face up to the immigration issue with is very important to the UK electorate. The voters of France and Spain have moved very dramatically to the right in the past 18 months.

In the even of a Yes vote I think the UK parties will make how the negotiations are dealt with a key issue in the 2015 election, I think there could be a little bit of a contest to show who's the toughest.

FWIW I think Westminster politics and policy are hugely favourable to the rest of the country at the expense of the South East which pays far more in personal or business taxes than it gets back. Scottish independence, if it occurs, is going to show the rest of the UK the lie that is politicians promising Nirvana. An independent Scotland is going to struggle financially and socially, in my view is going to be much worse off than at present. IMO this will strengthen the center and right political parties in the UK over time.

peterfile - Member

I will say it again....it's not about you.

This is about Scotland and how it is governed. This has no bearing on or reflection on you.

I don't care how many times you repeat it, you're still wrong.
By definition, this vote affects everyone in the UK.

@digga, Sterling hit 1.73 vs USD recently, far higher than it's been in the past 5 years. What we are seeing is a correction due in part to the uncertainty around a Yes vote. I very much doubt Carney will push rates up without signs of good underlying economic data.

A Yes vote will be economically negative for the UK and worse for Scotland, its lose-lose.

EDIT @peterfile a Yes vote very much effects the UK, as per my comment above

This will be more acute if Scotland decide to walk away from their share of the national debt As has been pointed out by many people, doing so would condemn them to instant financial pariah status from day 1. Not a smart move, but then none of this looks particularly well conceived.

By definition, this vote affects everyone in the UK.

You are misinterpreting what I am saying.

I didn't say that it does not affect you. Of course it does.

I'm saying that people are not basing their votes on you.

You said:

It is rather depressing that so many in Scotland [b]seem happy to treat many years of shared history and achievement with such contempt[/b] and walk away from what has been a very productive relationship without a second thought.

which i disagree with

Scottish independence, if it occurs, is going to show the rest of the UK the lie that is politicians promising Nirvana. An independent Scotland is going to struggle financially and socially, in my view is going to be much worse off than at present.

This. Rather than encouraging the separatists in English regions, the reality will result in them quietly backing off.

I'm saying that people are not basing their votes on you.

No you didn't.
You said

I will say it again....it's not about you.
This is about Scotland and how it is governed.

Which it isn't.
It's about the UK and how it is governed.

OK Rusty, scottish voters will be heading to the polls next Thursday to cast their vote on how the UK is governed 🙂

@binners, "The North" hasn't enjoyed he same economic recovery as the rest of the UK as its more reliant upon state sector jobs and the state has been massively overspending hence the North has felt more cuts and has less private sector uplift. Independence or even greater autonomy for "the North" would be financial suicide. My tax return is processed in Manchester, if the North is autonomous I'd rather have that work done in Devon and Cornwall, they need the jobs there.

Good.

I'm glad you've finally realized I was right.
We'll say no more about it.

I'm off for some new batteries for my sarcasm detector. 🙂

🙂

I'm off for some new batteries for my sarcasm detector.

I recommend rechargeables if you're using it on here.

greater autonomy for "the North" would be financial suicide.

Not really - plenty of UK public sector jobs in Wales, and that has devolution.

By my rough calculations, the percentage of English in the UK would go from 84% to 91%. So I'm suddenly much more of a minority.

@binners, "The North" hasn't enjoyed he same economic recovery as the rest of the UK as its more reliant upon state sector jobs and the state has been massively overspending hence the North has felt more cuts and has less private sector uplift.

You see.... thats pretty much what they've been saying to the Scots. And its condescending patronising twoddle!!! And the kind of thing that further fuels a Yes vote.

Maybe you could look at it (as I and lots of others up here do) that successive westminster governments, of all colours, have prioritised London and the the South East, to the total exclusion of everybody else. Nobody else's interests even figure on the radar when setting policy. We're just meant to suck it up! .

So rather than pointing at the economy that has been allowed to develop, to suit the interests of one region, people in Scotland, and the North given the chance, are looking at what [i]could[/i] be possible if it were allowed the freedom to prioritise its own economic needs. Which hasn't happened for over 30 years.

Scots each receive almost £1,300 more public spending than the English

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10692466/Scots-each-receive-1300-more-spending-despite-oil-tax-drop.html

Will this mean no more 5 sec "plucky Scotland" pieces in the BBC sports segments to interrupt the hours of england meaningless friendly fixture coverage.

By my rough calculations, the percentage of English in the UK would go from 84% to 91%. So I'm suddenly much more of a minority.

Ah, but you'd go from being 4.8% of the population to 5.3%, so actually you're less of a minority!

We'll still have 'Plucky Scotland demolished by England/Wales/Ireland/Italy in 6 Nations', don't worry. Or will independence fuel a resurgence in Scottish rugby?