Unfortunatley, the teaching of the history of the Empire, is second only to the teaching of the history of the First World War in replacement of fact and ‘big picture’ analysis with lying, lefty, nauseating, 60’s pacifist hand wringing, guilt ridden, simplistic, sentimental crap.

that sounds like the analysis of someone who has studied neither subject in the last 10 years

trailmonkey – when schoolteachers stop using episodes of Blackadder and’ oh what a lovely war’ as source material, then you may have a point 😉

replacement of fact and ‘big picture’ analysis with lying

Wow, that’s a pretty serious accusation. Got any examples?

do you want me to prove that infrastructure helps trade?

Well it’s obvious, as you know, so no. Is there any direct evidence that no infrastructure was ever created with the knowledge of any benefit to the natives?

its true that they did no think they were bad like some/most of us do , However they were wrong.

Junkyard, are you registered as partially sighted? It must be quite difficult only being able to see black and white. It’s a bit daft to try to sum up 300 years of a variety of people and policies across half the world as ‘bad’, imo.

I think its fair to say that current British culture and living standards are built,to a certain extent on various forms of subjugation carried out overseas

Interesting. I presume you mean that we got the natives to make or grow things for us? A lot of people would say that’s not a one-way street. By providing a market and infrastructure you could be helping local industry. Of course if they didn’t provide fair wages and conditions it would not have been a good situation, but is it better than subsistence living in the forest for instance?

It’s a bit daft to try to sum up 300 years of a variety of people and policies across half the world as ‘bad’, imo.

but it’s not though is it ? the bad bits were obviously bad and the good bits were a) contestable, b) the result of imposition c) largely only good if distilled through a certain worldview.

i think it’s perfectly reasonable to sum the whole thing up and come up with a zero or positive result.

the good bits were a) contestable, b) the result of imposition c) largely only good if distilled through a certain worldview

I’d like more information and some examples of that.

Wow, that’s a pretty serious accusation. Got any examples?

Sure – one of the common lies is repeated on this very thread, the contention that the British Empire invented concentration camps, in South Africa.

The first modern concentration camps were set up not in south africa, but in colonial Cuba, in 1895. In an effort to put an end to a series of insurgencies, imperial Spain began to prepare a policy of reconcentratión, intended to remove the Cuban peasants from their land and ‘reconcentrate’ them in camps, thereby depriving the insurgents of food, shelter and support.

By 1900, the Spanish term reconcentratión had already been translated into English, and was used to describe a similar British project, initiated for similar reasons, during the Boer War in South Africa.

Good enough for you?

Junkyard, are you registered as partially sighted? It must be quite difficult only being able to see black and white. It’s a bit daft to try to sum up 300 years of a variety of people and policies across half the world as ‘bad’, imo.

It seems to me you are just mollyfying* this thread.

FWIW not all morals are set in stone but IMHO slavery and spousal rape are always wrong ,Anyone who argues otherwise is wrong. perhaps you could explain why these might be OK in some time frame now or in the future?

Not all morals are black and white but some are. The nazis/genocidal fascists are always wrong as well if that helps.

* asking questions when you probably dont mean what you type

I’d like more information and some examples of that.

hang on a minute, i’ve been waiting 3 hours for you to answer to the last facts i gave you concerning the results of free trade.

Sure – one of the common lies is repeated on this very thread, the contention that the British Empire invented concentration camps, in South Africa.

Actually by us in New Zealand,as we stole the land and moved the locals into camps. Colonialism is bad n’kay? Any benefits for the locals are side effects of us making it easier for us to steal their natural resources/put down rebellions.

FWIW not all morals are set in stone but IMHO slavery and spousal rape are always wrong ,Anyone who argues otherwise is wrong. perhaps you could explain why these might be OK in some time frame now or in the future?

Wtf you on about?

I’ve not said slavery and spousal rape were good
They were not created by the British Empire
Slavery was in fact abolished by the British Empire earlier than most places (afaik, please correct me)

So what are you talking about?

TM – apologies, I missed your post about trade.

on top of which, who do you think might have actually benefited from exports from the colonies, british investors or the average man in sarawak ?

I don’t know. I am not saying that trade WAS good for everyone, I am posing the question. Undoubtedly there were (and still are) gross abuses of economic power, but I want to know if OVERALL the Empire brought economic benefits to the countries being colonised.

For example – a lot of countries employ a lot of people growing tea. Would that have happened if we hadn’t spread the drink around the world? Did we in fact do that?

Sure – one of the common lies is repeated on this very thread, the contention that the British Empire invented concentration camps, in South Africa.

Is that a lie or a mistake? There is a difference.

And in any case, I don’t think anyone feels particularly guilty about inventing them, so it’s moot. I suspect more people feel guilty about using them, which is not under debate is it?

I don’t think the British Empire did anything that any previous Empire didn’t – with the exception that the British Empire banned slavery (a practice so old it pre-dates sharpening the sticks we used to hit each other with) within itself and then “ended”* it by enforcing the ban with a bloody big fleet.

(I wasn’t in the British Empire so deserve no credit or shame.)

So just for the exercise, what massive shift in the entire world conciousness (good or bad) did any other Empire leave behind?

*Of course, slavery on a much smaller scale does still go on.

Are you now accepting that some morals are black and white or are you still accusing only me and my partial sightedness of this?
ect?

I’ve not said slavery and spousal rape were good

right os it is no tgood is it bad then? I was answering this point

It must be quite difficult only being able to see black and white.

so there we have we have it you and I accept slavery and spousal rape is always wrong and see it in black and white
ta

but I want to know if OVERALL the Empire brought economic benefits to the countries being colonised.

wow if only we used I dont know evidence to decide
I think no without evidence what about your view without evidence? Oh this is fun 😉

JY. I think you are slightly missing the point. Nobody is saying that slavery is a good thing.
The fact remains at certain times during history whole societies did not see anything wrong with it & thought it was completely justified. That we now don’t think that is arguably evidence of moral progress. You could conceivably argue that this progress was made under the auspices of the British Empire… (though not denying that said empire was originally responsible for developing slavery on an industrial scale) I think you are confusing a contemporary moral relativism with an ability not to be anachronistic.

ohh.. missed this.

reckon that the british empire has got to have been one of the better empires that have existed.

if it wasn’t for the BE then germany vod hav von ze war.

(though not denying that said empire was originally responsible for developing slavery on an industrial scale)

Hmmmmmmmm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

didn’t say inventing, said developing.

its true that they did no think they were bad like some/most of us do , However they were wrong.

Me from up there

I dont doubt that some of them thought it was right [ that is a fact i doubt anyone would dispute] however they were wrong to think that [ that is also a fact I doubt anyone would want to dispute
I dont doubt that some morals are not absolutes, at what age should you marry, for example
Moral relativism is indeed an interesting debate [ i am not guilty here or I would be arguing that we should respect their views etc] but I suspect you can guess my view and what I think of moral universalism.

Slavery is in the Bible so who knows when it was invented and no one would claim the Empire invented it.

if it wasn’t for the BE USSR then germany vod hav von ze war.

Why the obsession with slavery and why frame the debate in these terms? Its like saying, there is nothing good to come from reading Aristotle’s Virtue Ethics because he defended (indeed supported) slavery. Perhaps its worth turning the binoculars the other way around to widen the perspective (just a wee bit)?

Why the obsession with slavery and why frame the debate in these terms?

well the original question was………

was it a good or bad thing and why

so i guess the only way to judge if it was good or bad is to add things up and come to a decision.

for me its an absolute non starter because whatever else happened nothing could be so great that it would makewhat happened in the plantation colonies of the west indies a price worth paying.

fwiw i’m not even convinced that it would have been a plus sum game if slavery hadn’t been a factor.

Can we not just overlook the holocaust when considering Hitler? its just so blinkered.

PS you do have a point and I am sure you get mine but TM is correct IMHO.
you can look at the positives if you wish but they wont outweigh the bad same as Hitler [ he did get some good growth in the economy] as for Mussolini with nationalised football Italy won the world cup twice – see even publicly owned is not always bad 😉

double post

Ok – that’s your (TM and JY) concluding paragraphs then. Fair enough, this is a categorical factor shaping your opinion. OOI, do you reject all of Aristotle’s philosophy on the same grounds?

I will see the answer in a while. Weather too nice not to be riding.

Can we not just overlook the holocaust when considering Hitler? its just so blinkered.

its a goodpoint – What have the Nazi’s ever done for us?

The Autobahns
Hugo Boss
Banning Fox Hunting
Rail Timetables
Package Holidays
Hypothermia treatment
Space Flight
Nuclear Physics
Along with introducing us to the concept of cheap Polish labour

oh, and Godwin’s law!

Anything else? 😉

no its not the same thing as he was saying things about knowledge and some of it was right and some of it was wrong
i accept the bits that were correct and reject the wrong bits

I am sure you dont believe in aether for example
TBH i dont know his works in any great detail so cannot really comment….we did not do him in comprehensive schools.

TM – no joy tomorrow unfortunately..

slightly ironically perhaps in light of my previous post, I’ll be working my fingers to the bone preparing our new business premises in time for the grand opening next month..

although that will be in deepest darkest Bovey Tracey, with the local’s blessing, and not at the expense of the population of some far flung civilisation rich in dignity and culture and tradition..

Sooo.. ice cream tastes lovely, but it makes you fat. Is it good or bad overall?

It’s a bit pointless trying to cancel out the bad with the good and arrive at a single score.

This is what I meant about black and white, Junkyard. And your pedantic nit picking isn’t really fun, no! I’d like to have learned something on this thread but I really haven’t.

Correct answer:

We have absolutely no idea what the outcome would have been had Britain not created the empire, therefore, it is impossible to judge.

One could only compared the actions of the British Empire with those of the Nazis if (for example) the Jews had already been exterminating themselves in concentration camps, and many other civilised countries also built and operated extermination camps.