Why are you still doing it aracer? why do you think it is a fair comparison?

Because I was correcting TJ. Though it’s far from a meaningless comparison. If you want something more directly relevant I’m afraid I don’t have figures to hand, but I’d bet the median salary where I used to work (mostly graduates) was lower than the median for teachers. The majority of graduates aren’t highly paid lawyers and doctors.

If we look at the median graduate salary [where a degree is a pre requisite] this will show techers perfome less well compared to their post graduate peers

Got any real figures to back up that assertion?

The majority of graduates aren’t highly paid lawyers and doctors.

Don’t confuse “jobs that graduates do” with “jobs that only graduates may do”.

Its not just average graduate pay its average pay in graduate level jobs we need

It is not relevant or fair or reasonable to compare graduates to the normal population as they have skills and abilities the normal population dont have and get higher wages EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. It is why the current gOvt want a graduate tax for example it is meanginless to keep comparing them to the general population
I could produce figures for you but I am sure you could find some vague illdefined reason for objecting to them and we could then discuss that 🙄
quick google gives us this gem to argue about for the next few days

Figures from the Association of Graduate Careers Annual Review 2008 suggest that a typical starting salary for a first-degree graduate ranges from £15,000 to more than £35,500 with a median or the average salary of £25,000. The lowest starting salaries are found within the public sector and the best salaries, over £35,500, in legal services, banking and finance. Other business services such as IT, transport, communications and consultancy services see typical starting salaries of £25,000. It’s important to note that this is just a guide.

Well there you have it you can cherry pick the bottom figure, ignore the high bits and pulic sector being the lowest ..pehaps you can also mention teachers “automatic” pay rises.

Don’t confuse “jobs that graduates do” with “jobs that only graduates may do”

An excellent point so we have the comapritor sorted now

We’re all in this together!

Nice article and very true Dave we are, so the might of the Public Sector and Unions may just may have an effect that all will benefit from. Which is worth remembering.

Might even be true in the real world – coppers dont live as long as firefighters

I can see why that might be true (although I haven’t bothered checking!) because while firefighting I’m sure is very stressful and dangerous, the stress of being a copper and dealing with **** and seeing pillocks doing bad things/having bad things done to them would be immense.

But anyway, this is off-topic…

Figures from the Association of Graduate Careers Annual Review 2008 suggest that a typical starting salary for a first-degree graduate ranges from £15,000 to more than £35,500 with a median or the average salary of £25,000. The lowest starting salaries are found within the public sector and the best salaries, over £35,500, in legal services, banking and finance. Other business services such as IT, transport, communications and consultancy services see typical starting salaries of £25,000. It’s important to note that this is just a guide.

So, after 9 years of teaching, my salary is almost equal to the £35,500 median starting salary for graduates in legal services, banking and finance.

That tallies with the salaries my peers at uni started on. (I went to Durham, so knew lots of people who started as accountants or management consultant-types.)

The 50%+ of the population who earn less than teachers are quite reasonably annoyed that they are guaranteeing teachers defined benefit pensions.

50%+ you say?

Did you know that 72% of statistics are inaccurate? And that 41% are made up?

That tallies with the salaries my peers at uni started on.

So why didn’t you become an accountant or management consultant?

So why didn’t you become an accountant or management consultant?

Maybe he wanted to do something more worthwhile.

I thought it was all about the money (and the pensions)?

Right, that’s enough of this!

I am now deploying my usually reliable special thread-killing capabilities.

STOP IT NOW. YOU ARE ALL GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES. THE EXCLAMATION MARKS IN THE THREAD TITLE ARE DOING MY HEAD IN.

STOP IT. I REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME.

Right, that’s enough of this!

I am now deploying my usually reliable special thread-killing capabilities.

STOP IT NOW. YOU ARE ALL GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES. THE EXCLAMATION MARKS IN THE THREAD TITLE ARE DOING MY HEAD IN.

STOP IT. I REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME.

I don’t quite get your point? Could you explain it in another way? Perhaps kinaesthetically? 😆

Banging heads together??? 😉

So why didn’t you become an accountant or management consultant?

I made a decision based upon the package offered. That package has now changed. Hence the problem.

Hence the problem.

What problem? 😕

I went to Durham, so knew lots of people who started as accountants or management consultant-types

you learned to be a teacher at Durham?

STOPITSTOPITSTOPITNOW.

STOPITSTOPITSTOPITNOW.

you rang m’lord?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24fDKqXNv50[/video]

Remember when teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers and lollipop ladies crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither. Please copy and paste to your status for 24 hours to show your support for the strikes against the government’s latest attack on pensions.

this is doing the rounds on facebook at the mo.. quite succinct I thought..

Hmmm! Not sure I support the stikes though, workd to rule yes full industrial action no. Far too many at riks if we, Nurses, Dr’s and Scoial workers and some others go on strike.

Remember when teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers and lollipop ladies crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither.

I do. All the above happened very recently. Teachers and nurses borrowed more than they could afford to buy a part-share home. They got caught up in a bubble and thought they would double their money on the rabbit hutch flat they bought.

Middle aged social workers and doctors bought second homes on ‘buy to let deals’, again, thinking they would make easy money out of pricing 1st time buyers out of the market and making them rent the same house.

Only the housing bubble burst. And the teachers, nurses, social workers and doctors suddenly found themselves in negative equity. And without all the overtime they’d lied to the bank about, saying it was guaranteed, they can’t keep the repayments going.

So many people threw their keys back to the bank that the bank had to hand its keys to the Government.

Yes, banks were silly: but no bank ever forced anyone to take out a loan, or lie about whether they could afford it. Everyday people did that.

Ouch!

dm…you forgot to blame the lollipop ladies

without all the overtime they’d lied to the bank about

where do I sign up for overtime payments? Bet not many teachers or nurses have defaulted either, fairly stable jobs you see and intrest rates have gone down. Or maybe you just like talking shite.

REALLY, dmj, says who? You? Because recent performance would suggest you are not the best source of information. I mean,who would have thought it,it was public sector workers caused the banks to go bust! Hang on; that post was a troll! damn, you got me there!

So many people threw their keys back to the bank that the bank had to hand its keys to the Government.

But weven handing back the keys doesnt ensure the debt or motgage dies with the keys the banks have the right to reclaim any money or costs as wekll as intrest up to 7 years after youve handed back the keys.

Quite a few people are going to have a very costly shock .

I’m quite happy to exclude lollipop ladies from this one!

You missed out what they did to Greece as well when they could no longer afford to go there on holiday or when they had to give up the huomous when the credit crunch really hit home.
That really is taking your dislike of the public sector way beyond what reality can sustain …it is not even tenuous.

dmjb4 – Chapeau 8)

Indeed, some people seem to have forgotten, that you too can be a property developer!

Now, would anyone like a self cert 125% mortgage…. or hows about a buy to let?

You don’t need to be paid overtime. Many people in this country bought a house in the boom, using a mortgage that the bank properly risked. Then the homeowner took out a big loan to decorate, build a conservatory or buy a range rover. They thought the house prices would keep on rising sufficiently to cover the loan they couldn’t really afford to pay, and they would be able to sell the house, repay the mortgage and loan and make big big bucks for themselves.

Only it didn’t work out that way. So a bank that made a good faith mortgage was hit with a big loss because an individual was greedy.

Junkyard, I’m a teacher and I’ll never give up my hummus! NEVER!!!

Edit: OMG dmjb really meant it…the banks knew exactly what what was going on and were more than happy to in along with it. They didn’t have to increase the mortgage multiplier

Edit: OMG dmjb really meant it…the banks knew exactly what what was going on and were more than happy to in along with it. They didn’t have to increase the mortgage multiplier

Of course the bank knew that the man in the street would be too greedy. How many banks actually forced people to sign though? Everyone has to shoulder their share of the blame.

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=11_mortgage_shortfalls

Should have gone on my post above.

Many people in this country bought a house in the boom

so not jut public sector workers then? Gosh thats good, I thought I was going to have to protest against my own kind for a moment there.

Only it didn’t work out that way. So a bank that made a good faith mortgage was hit with a big loss because an individual was greedy.

PMSL
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6028800.ece
that for rbs does not mention anything you do

According to the National Bureau of Economic Research (the official arbiter of recessions) the recession began in December 2007.[13] The financial crisis is linked to reckless lending practices by financial institutions and the growing trend of securitization of real estate mortgages in the United States.[14][not in citation given] The US mortgage-backed securities, which had risks that were hard to assess, were marketed around the world. A more broad based credit boom fed a global speculative bubble in real estate and equities, which served to reinforce the risky lending practices.[15][16] The precarious financial situation was made more difficult by a sharp increase in oil and food prices. The emergence of Sub-prime loan losses in 2007 began the crisis and exposed other risky loans and over-inflated asset prices. With loan losses mounting and the fall of Lehman Brothers on September 15, 2008, a major panic broke out on the inter-bank loan market. As share and housing prices declined, many large and well established investment and commercial banks in the United States and Europe suffered huge losses and even faced bankruptcy, resulting in massive public financial assistance.

it calls them risky and reckless lending not borrowing
HTH

There is no lending without borrowing though, is there!

Say a neighbour asks you to lend £5 to get lunch as he’s lost his bank card, and assures you he’ll pay it back. You call round next week to remind him, and he says he can’t pay you back. You later find out he’s an alcoholic and trade unionist*. A man of low moral fibre who spends any money he has on cigarettes, drink and union subs. Would you expect the entire street to ostracise you, claim it was all your fault?

No. You made a reckless decision, but the real fault lies with the person who abused your trust. Same as mortgage bubbles – the fault lies with those who became addicted to debt, not those lending it in good faith, however foolishly.

*sorry, couldn’t resist.

If I freely LEND my money to someone of my own volition through choice and they cannot pay me back I would say that I was piss poor at assessing risk. if i did this to a lot of people and went bankrupt I would have a look at my own actions and how they were responsible for the situation. I guess I could blame everyone else but i would need to be much more stupider than what i am.
Even if I accepted your view it is way to simplistic to suggest that the entire situation [ started in America was due simply to home loans and it is ridiculous to suggest it was due to UK based public sector workers

The failure rates of subprime mortgages were the first symptom of a credit boom tuned to bust and of a real estate shock. But large default rates on subprime mortgages cannot account for the severity of the crisis. Rather, low-quality mortgages acted as an accelerant to the fire that spread through the entire financial system. The latter had become fragile as a result of several factors that are unique to this crisis: the transfer of assets from the balance sheets of banks to the markets, the creation of complex and opaque assets, the failure of ratings agencies to properly assess the risk of such assets, and the application of fair value accounting. To these novel factors, one must add the now standard failure of regulators and supervisors in spotting and correcting the emerging weaknesses.