Zulu – like the tories spending it all on benefits keeping a large proportion of the population out of work and doing nothing useful?

.couldn’t you find one which backs up Farmer_John claim that we went into the recession carrying the largest deficit of any country as a proportion of GDP then ?

Sadly he was probably lying – Ireland was worse even then (probably also Greece if their accounting wasn’t so creative). Isn’t that reassuring.

FFS the wink meant it was a light hearted comment

Sorry 😳

(if you started with reserves rather than debt)

ernie – congratulations on posting a graph which disproves both of your points

aracer – usa? Japan?

aracer – usa? Japan?

USA depends on which figures you look at and which exact date – at best we weren’t doing much better than them. Japan’s is and has been far lower.

Japan however has huge debt.

Japan however has huge debt.

Maybe – but we were discussing the economic measure the UK is outside the safe bounds of.

Were we? I thought you were making stuff up on ideological grounds.

The debt and the deficit the UK has is not unsustainable contrary to the tory propaganda. It is not good – but growth would reduce it where as austerity measures that they have taken will and are increasing it.

Still – they have always been economic illiterates the tories with their low growth, high inflation, high unemployment and high debt and deficit.

I thought you were making stuff up on ideological grounds

I’m happy to retract anything I’ve made up if you can point it out to me and prove I’m wrong.

It is not good

Better than Ireland and Greece though. Phew!

Maybe – but we were discussing the economic measure the UK is outside the safe bounds of.

See the words at the top of that graph up there, TJ – you’re seriuously suggesting that we can maintain a 12%+ deficit without any problems?

completely arbitrary limit. Nothing to do with safety. I doubt anything will explode and at other points in the cycle other countries have been well over the 3 % limit

makes you wonder what the norweigens are pissing about at doesnt it.

and I still dont get why the short term problem needs this long term solution.

aracer – Member

See the words at the top of that graph up there, TJ – you’re seriuously suggesting that we can maintain a 12%+ deficit without any problems?

12%? 6% according to your graph you posted.

And yes – we can run a a large deficit for a short time so long as the money is being used usefully – as it was up until the Tories started cutting. Its only a short term thing until growth picked up or it would have been without the disastrous economically illiterate tories in charge

Norway? using he oil money wisely

aracer – Member

ernie – congratulations on posting a graph which disproves both of your points

So now you’re claiming I can’t count beyond 4 ! 😀

…….well I knew I was rubbish at arithmetic but I’m fairly sure I that this graph only shows 4 periods since WW2 when the UK hasn’t had a deficit, and not 5 as you claim.

And I think you’ll find that only in the one period of the late 80s were the Tories in power, in the other three periods Labour were in government.

So where’s the bit in the graph which disproves both of my points ?

Perhaps you could also explain to me why there has almost always been a deficit under Tory governments, especially as the Tories have been power most of the time and deficits are such extraordinarily bad things ❓

so it was actually Labour’s taxation policy causing the problem?

Labour’s taxation policies undoubtedly contributed to the deficit. Who doubts that the temporary cut in VAT didn’t contribute to the deficit ? Who doubts that cutting income tax in the “boom” years and then not raising it in the “bust” years, didn’t contribute to the deficit ?

ooops upsidey downy!!

Junkyard, far from failing “to post up any evidence again to show that it was not the bankers wot done it”, the graph shows that our economy started to go into deficit in 2002 and didn’t get any better from that point onwards – despite one of the longest period of economic growth since WW2.

Unless you’re seriously claiming that it was the bankers messing things up between 2002 and 2007 (and miraculously, the global banking sector only messed up the uk economy and didn’t touch any others), it does rather point to an underlying issue that was exacerbated by the banking crisis.

Me!!! I got it!!! fifeunned.

Wooooooo Hooooo!!!

the graph shows that our economy started to go into deficit in 2002 and didn’t get any better from that point onwards

Can’t you see the bit where it started to get better then ?

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers…….despite your attempts to rewrite history.

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers

I borrowed more than I could afford to fund a mortgage and buy a new car, now house prices have fallen and I’m stuck in negative equity, this wasn’t supposed to happen – its all the b*stard bankers fault!

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers

I maxed out the credit cards on holidays in the seychelles, expensive bike components and a LCD TV – now I’ve lost my job and can’t pay it back, and its all the b*stard bankers fault!

It all went tits up thanks to the credit crunch caused by the banks/bankers

I Took my mothers inheritance, and put it in an offshore bank paying twice the interest I could get on the high street – it was an offer that was too good to be true said my IFA, but I showed him he was wrong, the foreign bank went bust, but luckily the government bailed me out and gave me all my money back – but it was still all the b*stard bankers fault!

Personal Responsibility – just one of the many things the Labour party took away from us!

Teachers still work on school holidays.

Teachers still work on school holidays.

Ideal time for them to go on strike then, holidays and teacher training days 😀

Zulu-Eleven you haven’t been following this thread. So just for you, let me repeat the link which clearly shows how your party leader David Cameron, placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

David Cameron calls for criminal actions against bankers

Quote :

“David Cameron last night expressed disbelief that financial watchdogs were not pursuing criminal investigations against banks and bankers who have caused the financial crisis.”

You need to fall more into line with your party leader mate 💡

btw, I take it you don’t doubt the accuracy of a Daily Telegraph article Zulu-Eleven ? ….. after all, your great guru Daniel Hannan is a leader writer for the Telegraph 😀

ernie_lynch – Member

Zulu-Eleven you haven’t been following this thread. So just for you, let me repeat the link which clearly shows how your party leader David Cameron, placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

Objection- David Cameron says this, it doesn’t mean he thinks this. being a politician, the 2 are not connected.

the graph shows that our economy started to go into deficit in 2002 and didn’t get any better from that point onwards – despite one of the longest period of economic growth since WW2.

That is a highly selective reading of the graph tbh given it has almost always been in deficit since the war 🙄 . It did not start to go into deficit it returned to deficit. It would seem fair to assume deficit is the normal state for our budget given that graph – we can argue whether this is a good thing or a bad thing but we cannot argue it is not normally in deficit. Given something happened to make normality be bad in 2008 – just after the graph started to go down- why do you think the cause was not the global banking issue?
I assume the pejorative term messing things up means running a deficit does it? Why not just say running a deficit we are not tabloid headline writers?

Unless you’re seriously claiming that it was the bankers messing things up between 2002 and 2007 (and miraculously, the global banking sector only messed up the uk economy and didn’t touch any others), it does rather point to an underlying issue that was exacerbated by the banking crisis

The point that the crisis affected all countries, as you imply, would support my assertion that they caused the issues we, and other countries, currently face.

The billions spent bailing out the banks and the need for public spending cuts were the fault of the finacial services sector

The price of this financial crisis is being borne by people who absolutely did not cause it,” he said. “Now is the period when the cost is being paid, I’m surprised that the degree of public anger has not been greater than it has.

Mervyn King chair , B of E.
It did not happen for the reasons you state

Northwind are you suggesting that David Cameron is not only a liar, but that he lies about things as important as who’s responsible for the financial crises ? 😯

I’m outraged that you should even suggest such a thing about our Prime Minister 😐

ernie_lynch – Member

Northwind are suggesting that David Cameron is not only a liar, but that he lies about things as important as who’s responsible for the financial crises ?

I think if he weren’t, he’d be unelectable.

David Cameron is making a nice political song and dance, but he’s doing it safe in the knowledge that no one will actually be charged with anything. Mainly as while some of the people here might wish that some banking activities were illegal, these happen to have been and remain perfectly legitimate.

There’s a nice section of the fsa website showing people who have been prosecuted and what for. There’s plenty of mortgage fraud, but nothing on selling mortgages, or credit derivatives.

Oil is not the only factor in Norways apparent good figures – although most of these ‘facts’ can be manipulated to show whatever necessary to prove an argument.

How would the figures look if it wasn’t for EU membership

I think if he weren’t, he’d be unelectable.

Well he failed to win the election.

So I guess it’s because he wasn’t lying when he claimed that it was “banks and bankers who have caused the financial crisis” ?

The guy needs to stop telling the truth 💡

That’s because selling mortgage pools and securitising them through cayman island spvs (force example) isn’t illegal. If there is s cash fliw abd receivable you can securitise it! Dont forget that for every deal where bankers get paid lots there are teams if lawyers where the partners are billing enormous amounts if money not ti nention the auditors and all the other fiduciaries such as ratings agencies, trustees, agents all making sure the deal works and is above board.

Sort of like a school, where there are teachers, and TAs, secretaries, treasurers, governors, inspectors, health and safety people. There is some management and administration leeching money in every profession!

Wait a minute Ernie – thats not a quote from Cameron! its an editorial sub headline.

You’re either unable to read or deliberately being obtuse!

Can you give me an actual quote from Cameron saying that?

bangaio I’m sure that despite David Cameron’s assertions to suggest otherwise, the banks and bankers acted within the law…….that indeed is the tragic consequence of crap laws and deregulation.

David Cameron would of course all like us to believe that it was just a few naughty individuals who were at fault, and not the deregulated free-market neo-liberal dream.

What isn’t in doubt however, is that 18 months ago David Cameron placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

What isn’t in doubt however, is that 18 months ago David Cameron placed the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

Ernie – actual quote or it didn’t happen!

Wait a minute Ernie – thats not a quote from Cameron!

Who said it was a quote from David Cameron ? I certainly didn’t !

I said it was a quote from the Daily Telegraph concerning what Cameron had said about placing the blame for the financial crises firmly on the banks and bankers.

What’s the matter mate………..don’t you believe your Tory Daily Telegraph – even though your great guru Daniel Hannan is a leader writer on the paper ?

Sort of like a school, where there are teachers, and TAs, secretaries, treasurers, governors, inspectors, health and safety people. There is some management and administration leeching money in every profession!

Hang on – are we comparing teachers nicking whiteboard markers to city execs siphoning off millions to offshore accounts?

😕

There’s a nice section of the fsa website showing people who have been prosecuted and what for. There’s plenty of mortgage fraud, but nothing on selling mortgages, or credit derivatives.

could not see it myself any chance of a link
ta

Ernie – Monbiot writes for the Guardian on Climate change – doesn’t mean The paper’s telling the truth though, does it 😉

Now, since you’ve conceded that Cameron himself has not made that claim – I’ll offer you an actual quote!

“The whole country suffered from irresponsible lending practices, from irresponsible behaviour. But we need to recognise that there were a lot of people to blame for the mess we are in and that we shouldn’t just think it’s an easy scapegoat to pick one in view…

…Governments made mistakes, regulators made mistakes, politicians made mistakes; everyone was involved.”

Now, does that actual quote support your allegation that Cameron put the blame on the bankers?