Viewing 38 posts - 121 through 158 (of 158 total)
  • TdF Stage 18: Lourdes — Hautacam (spoilers!)
  • theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Yet another stage that is a total classic before they’ve even got to the second ad break in the highlights.

    It does make me wonder if the teams shared the same hotel, they’d be attacking each other to be first to the breakfast buffet, attacking each other to get the bus out of the car park first……

    It’s also been injury and illness / covid affected but when teams get down to bare bones and don’t have the weight of numbers to nullify each other so much how much better the man v man racing gets. Smaller teams?

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    It does look like that if you only watch the tour de France how ever

    Why’s that? I watched the Giro, MVdP went nuts with loads of crazy attacks, but he was successful sometimes, others were a disaster, great fun.
    Wout meanwhile in Le Tour is sprinting, tt ing, solo breaking and demolishing proven climbers in the high mountains. Doesn’t add up for me. Maybe I am just jaded from watching bike racing for decades.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Because his back injury has been a recurring issue throughout the classics.

    Wout meanwhile in Le Tour is sprinting, tt ing, solo breaking and demolishing proven climbers in the high mountains.

    A bit like pog then

    kilo
    Full Member

    demolishing proven climbers in the high mountains

    The only “proven climber” who has been anywhere near the front is Quintana who is old and constantly flatters to deceive. The days of specialist climbers of the Millar, Van Impe, Herrera mould are long gone, (since sky came in) it’s now the big engine and then get a low body weight model, the can climb well enough and manage the flat stages too (G being another example)

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    A bit like pog then

    No, nothing like POG, when did you see him last bang elbows with pure sprinters or smash off the front in Paris Roubaix. Sure he has a great kick on uphill small group sprints but he isn’t doing anything like Wout. Sure Pog did some classics, but what did he win? Strada Bianca, that’s often been a climbers race, Bernal was 3rd to MVdP a year or two back and he is a pure climber.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    The only “proven climber” who has been anywhere near the front is Quintana

    Oh come on! That’s a massive reach, huge, gigantic..is Quintana the only proven climber in LeTour? This Pog guy is handy, Yates, I seem to recal and odd decent win for ThomasMatinezhas won the Dauphine, that tends to be hilly

    kilo
    Full Member

    I take climber, in the tour, to be the classic climber physique; small, wiry and usually not much cop (relatively speaking) on the flat. All those you’ve mentioned fall into the big engine low body weight model I suggested, with the possible exception of Martinez.
    Yates has not had many big wins, certainly not big mountain stages of GTs but has a fair few top tens in one day races and classics. So WVA is just one of the best of a fairly similar set ( still prefer MVdP though)

    Sure Pog did some classics, but what did he win?

    He’s been on or near the podium at Flanders, MSR, LBL (twice with one win) and a number of semi-classics, a lot of pros would be happy with that for a career and he’s only been racing a short time so far.

    ferrals
    Free Member

    I am mildly surprised at how well WVA has done, but having watched him dominate cyclocross along with MVDP for the last however many years, I can happily believe it’s good training not a more old-fashioned preparation.

    The number on times that Pogadcar and Vinnegard (sp??) have been called unreal or unbelievable in the commentary over the past couple of weeks is more of a red flag to me

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    So WVA is just one of the best of a fairly similar set

    Seriously?
    Proven climbers are proven climbers, that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too

    fazzini
    Full Member

    Maybe its just the multi-discipline backgrounds of these guys like WvA and MvdP? Is it possible that the ability/aerobic capability of the guys who ride cyclocross and MTB is having a bigger influence? It’s a genuine question as I am no athlete or expert.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I am mildly surprised at how well WVA has done, but having watched him dominate cyclocross along with MVDP for the last however many years, I can happily believe it’s good training not a more old-fashioned preparation.

    The number on times that Pogadcar and Vinnegard (sp??) have been called unreal or unbelievable in the commentary over the past couple of weeks is more of a red flag to me

    I wish I thought like you, like I said MVdP regularly bites off more than he can chew and comes unstuck and you don’t see him dropping Martinez in the Pyranees, after being on the attack for two weeks straight.

    Vingagoagoago and Pog are just being GC racers, POG the punchier rider but they are not pushing 80kg and capable of winning full bunch sprints

    kilo
    Full Member

    that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too

    Yes very odd and fairly infrequent, other than the title of Great French hope for the tour, to be alternated with Pinot (even though Allaphillipe is better than the pair of them).

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    No one can deny that they are proven climbers though. Although, maybe you could

    ferrals
    Free Member

    A_A – as someone said above, MVDP has a back issue that last year or the year before people were saying would end his career, before that he was head and shoulders above everyone in cx, no bad days.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    Sure Pog did some classics, but what did he win?

    Pogacar has been at or near the top since he came onto the WordTour scene. Youngest ever rider to win a WorldTour stage race (when he won Tour of California in 2019).

    Olympic medallist (he finished behind WvA in the sprint for silver / bronze).

    He’s won loads.

    YoKaiser
    Free Member

    Just caught up with stage 18, awesome. I think Vingegaard has shown that he has the legs and it wasn’t just JV Vs Pog, and for all the criticism leveled against the quality of UAE they did double down as their numbers dwindled. All being equal Vingegaard has had the measure of Pog.

    nbt
    Full Member

    that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too

    Yes very odd and fairly infrequent

    Given the quality of the opposition, I think this palamares is reasonable quality. Most pro cyclists would dream of any one result from this list

    Top results
    3x stage Tour de France (’17, ’16, ’15)
    2nd GC Tour de France (’16)
    KOM Tour de France (’19)
    GC Tour of the Alps (’22)
    3rd GC Tour de France (’17)
    2nd World Championships – Road Race (’18)
    stage La Vuelta ciclista a España (’21)
    2nd GC Criterium du Dauphiné (’16)
    2x 6th GC Tour de France (’18, ’14)
    GC Tour de l’Ain (’13)
    2nd Strade Bianche (’18)
    stage Critérium du Dauphiné (’15)

    kilo
    Full Member

    that Bardet fella has won the odd thing too

    Yes he has a good palmares but going back to the original inaccurate statement that he’s some sort of proven winner how many wins in that list? He’s got two stage wins a few years back and KoM 2019 as his highlights, very good but he’s not a consistent very top level contender.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    before that he was head and shoulders above everyone in cx

    No he wasn’t, MvDP was often beat by Wout, especially flatter tracks with more running. Like I said you don’t see MVdP eating up proven climbers in the high mountains or beating pure sprinters in bunch sprints or winning grand tour TT’s

    Pogacar has been at or near the top since he came onto the WordTour scene. Youngest ever rider to win a WorldTour stage race (when he won Tour of California in 2019).

    Olympic medallist (he finished behind WvA in the sprint for silver / bronze).

    He’s won loads.

    I was talking in the context of the classics he rode this season, he is obviously outrageously good but his abilities are nowhere near as wide as Wouts

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    He’s got two stage wins a few years back and KoM 2019 as his highlights, very good but he’s not a consistent very top level contender.

    There are LOADS of riders like that in WT level. Hugo Houle who won Stage 16 has won almost nothing – a few top 10’s in stage races that no-one has ever heard of, he’s been Canadian National Champion a couple of times about 10 years ago and that’s it.

    Many of the domestiques, especially in lower-ranked teams, are the same.

    Women’s cycling isn’t much different either – it’s been the same dozen or so riders winning most of the big stuff for the last decade.

    vww
    Free Member

    Speaking of climbers, is it just me who thinks the KoM competition needs a shake up? I don’t understand why so few points are on offer generally (compared to the sprint comp). It’s become a defacto GC race. Geschke tried all tour to win it, but the big guns can steal the show and win it as an after thought.

    If I were in charge… I’d think about increasing points available on all climbs to provide more opportunities to win points. OR maybe change the nature of the comp by using some of the on-the-fly metrics currently available, like using each riders’ personal time from top to bottom to award points (fastest getting max etc). Something like this might give more weight to climbs earlier in stages. OR maybe make points available at more than one point on the climb and/or descent?

    I’m rambling, but I can’t be alone in thinking it’s become a lesser comp compared to the green jersey.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Yes he has a good palmares but going back to the original inaccurate statement that he’s some sort of proven winner how many wins in that list?

    I said proven climber, no one can deny Bardet is not a proven climber other than you.
    Anyway I’ll leave the discussion of Wouts performances there as many are not as sceptical as me which is I suppose a good thing!

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I can’t be alone in thinking it’s become a lesser comp compared to the green jersey.

    It’s kind of become a lesser competition by being a harder competition to win. White jersey could do with a shake up to, if it wasn’t for Vingagoagoago POG would win everything but green.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    Speaking of climbers, is it just me who thinks the KoM competition needs a shake up? I don’t understand why so few points are on offer generally (compared to the sprint comp). It’s become a defacto GC race. Geschke tried all tour to win it, but the big guns can steal the show and win it as an after thought.

    Richard Virenque won the Polka Dot for years and years by targeting the early smaller climbs, mopping up all the points and then having enough of a buffer that he could ignore the big ones, invariably won by the GC riders.

    Yeah, the whole thing needs a shake up. Same with White.
    They’ve played around with Green a few times as well altering points available etc, mostly to subtly “aid” the chances of a favoured rider or conversely, to make it more difficult for the same person to win it multiple times cos that gets boring. WvA has been largely unchallenged throughout – in fact he used his position of dominance to “win” most intermediate sprints without any competition. The one time someone chipped off the front and beat him, he got really arsey about it. The ideal scenario for Green is that it comes down to the final sprint on the Champs-Elysees.

    kilo
    Full Member

    Deleted cba’ed

    Klunk
    Free Member

    I get a whiff of Rasmussen with Vinagogogoarrd perhaps it’s just the accent 😕

    kilo
    Full Member

    Is he a mountain biker too?

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    I guess it depends if it’s the 90s /early 2000s definition of climber….

    Or the modern era of cycling where it’s no longer enough to earn your place on the team as a specialist.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I get a whiff of Rasmussen with Vinagogogoarrd perhaps it’s just the accent

    It’s sad isn’t it that the sport has been so tainted.

    IdleJon
    Full Member

    I get a whiff of Rasmussen with Vinagogogoarrd perhaps it’s just the accent

    That’s not surprising. His full name – Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen (born 10 December 1996). 😀

    The number on times that Pogadcar and Vinnegard (sp??) have been called unreal or unbelievable in the commentary over the past couple of weeks is more of a red flag to me

    I was saying exactly this a little earlier, and adding it to the fact that this looks like the fastest tour ever, according to the pundits yesterday. At least it’s been entertaining though, not like the Armstrong bore-fests.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    and adding it to the fact that this looks like the fastest tour ever, according to the pundits yesterday.

    Grand Tours have changed in the way they’re raced though. Previously, you used to have lots of long transition type stages then a bunch sprint so the peloton would let a break go out to 10+ minutes, sit there and twiddle along looking at the scenery, then race the last 60km once the TV helicopters appeared.

    Now, the whole thing is live, stages are much more varied, shorter (so less time to get the break established, less time to pull it back, less time to create or close big time gaps etc) so the racing is much more attacking.

    Don’t underestimate the effect that aero has had either. Once teams realised they couldn’t just fuel up on EPO to win everything, the whole “marginal gains” thing became much more important. Look at clothing and bikes now compared to the Armstrong era. Hidden cables, powermeters, aero tubing, skinsuits… Even a mid-range road bike now is far stiffer, lighter and faster than the best TdF winning bike from 15 years ago.

    IdleJon
    Full Member

    Grand Tours have changed in the way they’re raced though…….Even a mid-range road bike now is far stiffer, lighter and faster than the best TdF winning bike from 15 years ago..

    All true. But I won’t be able to find this thread to say I told you so when the revelations start to appear, so I’ll say I told you so now, in readiness. That’s a joke btw, if it’s not clear. I’m thoroughly enjoying the racing in the last few years. IF they are doping, then I think they might be good drugs for the sport. 😀

    nbt
    Full Member

    Earlier on in the tour they showed some footage of the tour when Jan Ullrich won and the difference in things like how loose and baggy the shirts were was quite painful to see.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    No he wasn’t, MvDP was often beat by Wout, especially flatter tracks with more running. Like I said you don’t see MVdP eating up proven climbers in the high mountains or beating pure sprinters in bunch sprints or winning grand tour TT’s

    I think the argument has moved on, but I started racing and watching CX about 3 or 4 years ago, and to be honest the races where WvA beat MvdP were very much the exception rather than the rule. I actually got a bit fed up watching it as often the races would turn in to MvdP basically solo time trialling off the front. More recently WvA and MvdP have almost been avoiding each other in CX and neither seems to have really done a full season, plus MvdP has been injured, so it’s really hard to spot any consistent pattern in (CX) performances.

    However didn’t MvdP recently ride ‘proven climbers’ (and WvA) off his wheel on Strade Bianche? Which was won by Pog the following year? And didn’t MvdP come 3rd in a Giro TT AND win a bunch sprint (and outsprint WvA in the RvV?).

    Whatever is going on, WvA certainly isn’t alone, and in the present company he might just be the best of a new breed of extremely capable all-rounders?

    corroded
    Free Member

    I think the thing I’m not sure about is that when everyone was juiced to the gills in the 90s, early 00s, they’d be motoring up mountains. Then, post-Lance, measures to make the sport cleaner seemed to be succeeding but the trade-off, some commentators were saying, is that the riders couldn’t perform such feats daily and therefore there’d be more ‘rest’ stages, and that seemed to be somewhat true. The break would go early, everyone would kick back for a chat and it’d be a bit of snoozefest for spectators. But that seemed like a decent deal. Now, however, pretty much every stage has been an old-fashioned tear-up. I know training and aero has improved but the riders must be feeling it in the legs!?

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Let’s not forget that the new gen don’t really have an off season ….. Think back to an offseason Ulrich or pantani in the off-season would put on what would seem unmanagable weight and then crash diet it off in the spring.

    MVdP and wva and most of the nu school(pidcock et al) don’t do that and just carry their form into the cx season.

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    GCN Tech video on the subject here:

    There are some interesting comparisons back to the doping era noting that Pantani and Riis have far quicker times up Alpe d’Huez and Hautacam.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    However didn’t MvdP recently ride ‘proven climbers’ (and WvA) off his wheel on Strade Bianche? Which was won by Pog the following year? And didn’t MvdP come 3rd in a Giro TT AND win a bunch sprint (and outsprint WvA in the RvV?).

    Strada Bianche is hardly the Pyranees, it’s exactly MVdP territory.
    Coming third in a giro TT is quite different from winning Tour TT’s. He won an uphill sprint from a peleton reduced of pure sprinters in the Giro, he wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell on the Champs Elyse in fact I have not seen him even bother sprinting in a full bunch sprit in recent years. Finally anyone can outsprint anyone 2 up after Flanders. Pidcock outsprinted Wout in a two up sprint last year, it happens after long tough races. What Wout has done, in all the different ways he has done it is truly, mind blowingly, out of this world amazing. MVdP has done amazing stuff for sure but he doesn’t win bunch sprints AND out climb proven climbers in the big mountains.

Viewing 38 posts - 121 through 158 (of 158 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Thanks for popping by - why not stay a while?IT'S FREE

Sign up as a Singletrack Member and you can leave comments on stories, use the classified ads, and post in our forums, do quizzes and more.

Join us, join in, it’s free, and fun.