STW armchair lawyers to the forum please-family legal dispute advice…

…the previous xmas he drank all the (very expensive irreplaceable) wine

That sounds like 6K worth of wine to me…

Best of luck – sounds absolutely shite. I’m guessing there’s no talking to the brother either? If dad’s completely unapproachable, is it worth a go?

Hora-I don’t have the money, it would bankrupt me. And if I go bankrupt 14 people lose their jobs…

Pay him in full and include a letter confirming this and that you saw it as a gift and at no point was it told to you that it was a loan- infact the opposite.

Add a final line, do not ever contact me again. CC both brother and Mother.

Lifes too short. Get him rid and make it clear. I did this and reiterated that there was nothing more to do with him.
Are you on crack Hora?

Why bother paying back a gift !!
He has no money to do so even if he wanted to as he has said numerous times

Dead dad, Here have that money that you gave me and have no legal claim for

Ps dont contact me again

Really Hora – is this actual advice?

Let’s give this a figure for clarity then. It was a £34k gift. I don’t think I should repay a £34k gift that, even if I wanted to, on the whim of an upset parent.

If I had the money or could take a loan out- yes I would do this. Same with if a family member ‘gave’ a car to you and then insisted it wasn’t a gift but now a loaned car. HERES YOUR CAR BACK. Sadly in the OP’s case this isn’t possible 🙁

The only thing I can say is focus on the term verbal contract and investigate/google. A business verbal contract is enforceable- is a family one though? Surely the burden of proof is on the ‘lendee’?

Yes I am on crack, I run my business from a campervan with a business associate.

You could offer a 3% stake in the business? Or have I been watching to much Dragons Den?

as above write back.. no i dear of what loan you speak please send copies of agreement etc. if unable to produce please do not contact again as i’d consider it harressment.. nice hand writing no need to bother with a solicitor.. recorded delivery to solicitors office..keep a copy. enjoy..

If it was a couple of grand I would give it to him just so he would disappear. But asking for £34k back is his attempt to 1. close my business and bankrupt me 2. remove any chance of a mortgage/house for me for a long long time…

I’ve now got visions of Hora and Binners as some Max and Paddy duo touring the Greggs stores of the Northwest in their camper van whilst dispensing pearls of ‘hora wisdom’ to the credulous.

Cougar – Moderator
Perhaps not, but you do need written proof in order to try and recover it.
I lent you £200 cash five years ago. Pay up.

No you don’t, but you do need evidence of payment. Dad here does.

whilst dispensing pearls of ‘hora wisdom’ to the credulous

Worst euphemism ever 😉

Surely, the balance of probabilities, given he also gave the other son the same amount at the same time without any documentation from either to say they were loans then it will be assumed they were loans

Al is it not just laughed out of court when a loan has no evidence beyond a payment? Surely there must be a written agreement?

A verbal loan agreement is still an enforceable agreement.

Obviously, if you’re the creditor then it’s harder to enforce if it’s disputed, however there’s almost always some evidence which can assist you. Of course, it’s even harder if you’re trying to lie about the status of the “debt”!

On that basis, if I was the OP, the concern I would have would be whether there was anything from the last 6 years which could be presented as evidence suggesting the money was not a gift. You may not even be aware of it at the moment.

Junkyard – lazarus
Al is it not just laughed out of court when a loan has no evidence beyond a payment? Surely there must be a written agreement?

No danger, not unusual for idiots people lend/gift each other money without documenting it then fall out and it goes to court.

I’m 100% certain that there is no evidence for him to suggest it was loan. I have never written or signed anything for the money, nor texted ‘thanks for the loan etc’ or anything of the kind, for good reason.

I don’t like the idea of a court appearance though, with us saying this and him saying that. It all sounds so open to any result.

I reckon I’d be a bit worried about the brother coming forward and saying ‘Well, I knew it was only a loan, and I intend to pay it back in the future when I have enough equity in my house. I don’t understand why thepublican would be claiming that it’s a gift…’

I don’t like the idea of a court appearance though, with us saying this and him saying that. It all sounds so open to any result.

Absolutely. Under normal circumstances, it would never get that far since one (or both) of the parties would realise the uncertainty of their position and buckle. However, family or business disputes which are based on an element of emotion are an entirely different beast and should be handled with caution. People often see red mist as opposed to sense…

I’m 100% certain that there is no evidence for him me to suggest it was loan. I have never written or signed anything for the money, nor texted ‘thanks for the loan gift etc’ or anything of the kind, for good reason.

Works both ways.

thepublican – Member
I’m 100% certain that there is no evidence for him to suggest it was loan. I have never written or signed anything for the money, nor texted ‘thanks for the loan etc’ or anything of the kind, for good reason.

Good stuff but remember someone standing up saying “in June 2008 we had a chat and I agreed to lend him the money” or “it was only ever a gift” IS evidence – as is anyone saying the opposite, or behaviour that is suggests the payment was a gift (no repayments, no requests for repayment) etc.

Thanks Al, hopefully a ‘loan’ that hasn’t been repaid in any way or acknowledged by anyone for 5 years before todays summons should look to a judge like a gift.

This jeremy kyle style dispute must be a wet dream to solicitors billings departments.

A decent lawyer shouldn’t milk it – but they charge by the 6 minute block and going to court could well cost the £6K, albeit the winning party will get their costs back (I think, I was a Scots lawyer where it’s only a contribution).

Always avoid court if you can.

Works both ways.

Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.

What cynic-al and peterfile have said, several times over. Speak to a lawyer. Get good advice early. And you don;t want a family lawyer – you need someone who understands commercial disputes. The “family” part of this is misleading.

Two things that leap to mind:

1. If you haven’t breached the terms of the “loan”, then suing you to repay it can’t work. If I borrow £34k off the bank with a repayment term of 10 years, they can’t decide at year 6 to sue me to repay the balance. I haven’t done anything wrong – the court wouldn’t wear that sort of nonsense.

2. If this is the first contact you’ve had about the money, then I suspect his lawyers know full well they can’t just go ahead an issue proceedings without getting a kicking from the court for failing to follow the Civil Procedure Rules.

If it did end up in court, then it wouldn’t look very believable that just after the father came into a large amount of money money, both his sons just happened to need to “borrow” large amounts of money off him.

And by pure chance they both needed to “borrow” exactly the same amount.

And both at the same time.

That looks like a gift to anyone with any sense.

He’s got no chance.

OP – don’t bother with armchair lawyers. Just go and consult a real one. There is a lot of very bad (and inaccurate) ‘legal’ advice being given to you in this thread.

Whereabouts are you? I might be able to help or recommend you someone who can.

I’m in Exeter stimpy, thanks.

thepublican YGM to the address in your profile.