Steel or Titanium?

Always owned full sus bikes and probably always will. However I would like a nice hardtail for winter to protect bearings etc. from the mud but I also want it to be a bike I’ll continue to ride throughout the year so no mega heavy lumps. Most of my riding is on the South Downs so fairly quick trails of around 30 miles with occasional 40-50 mile trips. Also a bit of singletrack and trips over to Surrey Hills for some downhill fun. 29’er is a must and suits the riding I do so no 650b’s.

Slack head angles seems to be all the rage right now but with the amount of climbing I do I’m not sure this is what I should be looking for.

So currently at the top of my list is a Kinesis Sync which seems to be an ideal bike for mile munching across the Downs. I’ve also seen the Niner Ros 9 though which receives fantastic reviews but is much slacker in geo.

So, Ti or Steel? Which would you go for?

andyjh – Member

Slack head angles seems to be all the rage right now but with the amount of climbing I do I’m not sure this is what I should be looking for.

It doesn’t follow tbh- my Ragley Ti (material coincidental) is s ridiculously good technical climber despite the slackness- better than any bike I’ve ridden with more trad XC geometry. And for seated climbing, imo as long as it’s not wandery or too sitty-up geometry doesn’t make that much difference. For blasting up hills in an XC race, aye but for just getting up hills on a ride, not so much

I’d get the right bike rather than the right material, especially since the feel varies from frame to frame- the Ragley’s not a very Ti feeling bike, it’s fairly stiff compared to my old classic-ti Soda… And the same’s true for steel, you can have stiff dead steel like a 456 or lively springy steel like an older Soul and anywhere inbetween.

The Ros looks awesome but it seems pisstakingly expensive

Ti, IMO….. My Ti 456 was the best HT arround,Sharp, responsive and utterly bombproof……

Will be sadly missed!. 😥

A few years back, wasn’t it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Ok, interesting re the slack geo and climbing. Good to hear that I shouldn’t notice too much difference, I was a bit concerned as most of my riding involves as much climbing as possible to try and get better so I wouldn’t want anything that would hinder it.

Trouble is with these frames, there aren’t many shops out there with demos. I’m going to borrow a Kinesis FF29 to get a feel for that but I know it’s not really going to tell me what the Sync is like as the material is very different and the geometry is also different.

I was going to get a Ragley BigWig but the current model is sold out everywhere and the new one is not due in until early 2015. If it’s then late, which most new bikes are, I could be looking spring before I get a second bike up and riding.

I’m very tempted to just get the Sync but the Niner has caught my eye and seems to be a very nice frame with rav reviews. Both are stupid expensive but I have most of the other parts ready and waiting so in reality it’s not going to be a massive build cost.

A few years back, wasn’t it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Do you dare to suggest that the Emperor has no cloths

I wouldn’t rule out a bike because it was Aluminium

Do you dare to suggest that the Emperor has no cloths

😆

Something like that yes..

The Niner ROS 9 doesn’t strike me as a xc bike – a trail bike yes. It has similar geo to the Kona Honzo and 2Souls Cycles frames so fab for rooty, rocky gnarr. It’s also not light. For the predominately South Downs riding you describe I’d be looking at the Sync, Solaris, On-one Scandal (2nd hand now) or a SC Highball.

I have two Ti frames and one steel, the steel frame(Singular Hummingbird) is my fave for all day riding

29er Scandal if you can get one. Comfy and light in the 26″ flavor and not too expensive although there will be a bit of a premium tax on them now they are no longer being made.

Boring choice but a Fireline will tick all the boxes

The latest slack hardtails are only slack if you put longer travel forks on them like 150-160’s. If you put 140’s on they will be average and if you put 120’s they will be not that slack at all.

Niner does look brilliant but wouldn’t get it just because of the ridiculous mark up their frames seem to get over here (even though I would be sorely tempted!)

Sync would be great if the budget allows, otherwise Solaris is the obvious choice.

You’re welcome to come and have a go on my large Sync if you’re ever in East Anglia. The FF29 is a bit steaper and longer in the chainstays, so more xc racer.

I’ve had various ti and steel frames and have to agree that it’s more about the design than the material. The only real advantages of ti are weight and scrape resistance. That said, the Sync feels more capable in every respect than the Solaris it replaced (which is still my second fave mtb I’ve owned).

A few years back, wasn’t it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Charge Duster. Probably the ‘deadest’ feeling bike of any material that I have ridden.

PeterPoddy – Member

A few years back, wasn’t it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Which says a lot about the Charge bikes but nothing useful about the materials

Thanks Bol for the offer, much appreciated 🙂

The Sync seems to be coming out very well for my type and location of riding. Normally I wouldn’t hesitate but it is a huge chunk of cash for a frame so was hoping for some experienced guidance. Many thanks for that 🙂

Will take another look at the Solaris but every time I talk to an owner the first word they say is heavy! They normally go on to say they like it though.

Took a look at the Fireline but again it’s out of stock. Equally the Parkwood which I think is a Scandel based frame is also out of stock, for the price I would give that one a try.

Credit card might take a bashing 🙂

ROS9 is a stupid amount of money for a plain cro moly frame.
It took a lot of erring before I bought my older model SIR9 but at least that has 853 tubes.
I was going to suggest the SIR9, but the latest SIR9 could be seen to have had a downgrade with its single 853 tube. 😕
But, everyone who has ridden mine has commented on how well it rides & feels.
Ive ridden a few steel bikes, including owning a first gen Soul. I’d say the Niner feels like a grown up Soul.
Niner certainly know their stuff.

I think there’s less than a pound (in weight anyway!) between the Sync and the Solaris.

Looking again at your brief, do you really want to spend a grand and a half on a frame for the winter slop? Having said that, if Ti tickles your fancy then stop dithering and buy it 🙂

Got a 456 ti and never looked back.

Id sooner have a top quality steel bike than an ok Ti one. Have a look a Chromag bikes as well. Will def have something to suit you. Half their bikes are built by Chris DeKerf, the others which have identical geometry with just a slightly cheaper tubeset are welded in Taiwan for half the price but still get great reviews.

On the DeKerf built ones you can choose any colour of paint you want.

I wouldn’t say the Solaris felt particularly heavy. Frankly I’d be weary of a steel mtb frame that wasn’t a pound heavier than an ally or ti equivalent. I’d also agree with the comment about better a good steel bike than a poor ti one – which is why I’m always surprised when people pay £800+ to get someone to build them a frame out of plain guage ti pipe. The Sync however is one of the most thought through and manipulated ti frames I’ve seen. The detail reminds me of a beautiful Litespeed I used to have (no it didn’t fail before anyone chips in!).

Who builds the Kinesis Sync? Kinesis or a third party?

Would agree on the good steel vs poor Ti but as confirmed above, the Kinesis Sync is a very well made Ti frame so I am comparing good with good.

Take the point about the price and the use in winter but I want to be using this year round and not just be a winter slop bike. Beauty of a hardtail is less maintenance during the winter months than my full sus plus I’ll be running 1×10 so again less maintenance. As long as I spec some good headset and BB bearings like Hope it should go through the winter with no worries. I just want to avoid the grind destroying the pivot bearings of my full sus and eating away at my Roval wheel bearings. Again this bike will probably have a set of Hope wheels so it should last and not need stripping post every ride!

Slack head angles seems to be all the rage right now but with the amount of climbing I do I’m not sure this is what I should be looking for.

I think you probably do equal amounts of climbing and descending!

@op this is not ti vs steel IMO, it’s a geometry question.

Fast SDW XC (yawn) – Sync.
Surrey Hills fun – ROS9.

Obv. both can do either, I have ride buddies with both, the Sync’er is tempted by a ROS9. Mostly we ride Surrey Hills. I have a frame very similar to the ROS and I’m sold on it too. It’ll do XC plenty fine for my needs, and boy the moment the trail has the tiniest bit of down gradient is it fun. I also think 4130 is fine for a trail bike, you don’t want it noodly!

The Syncer, a very competent rider, had a few offsies when he first got it due to the sharp head angle tripping him up.

Try and get tests.

Between the 2 I would buy a ROS 9 (well I I bought a close cousin, so I sort of did really) hands down. But I’m not you.

I think you probably do equal amounts of climbing and descending!

Well said.

I ride my Sync all year round, it’s a very versatile and very fast bike, the tubing and build quality is top class. Most of my riding is Eastbourne end of South Downs and North Downs/Surrey Hills, just recently swapped the dropper post with a Ti post, mainly for weight and comfort on all day XC rides, ditched the backpack too.

^^ undeniably a beautiful bike

@ mattjg

Between the 2 I would buy a ROS 9 (well I I bought a close cousin, so I sort of did really) hands down.

Go on then – what did you get?

http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/nimble-9

ah! good choice

It’s bloody lovely, and maybe a tad less gnarly then the ROS9, but don’t quote me on that.

A few years back, wasn’t it Charge who had a Ti and steel bike with identical geometry, and painted one of each plain black and let some people test them?
In a blind test, none of them could tell what the difference was, or indeed if there was any difference, if I recall correctly

Until they picked it up. I think that was actually in STW. Well, chances are high as it’s the only mag I buy on a regular basis anyway.

Charge Duster. Probably the ‘deadest’ feeling bike of any material that I have ridden.

Charge Skinny Duster. Can’t level that at it. Not too everyones taste, but I thought it was ace.

Forget the material and get a Trek Superfly.

molgrips – Member

I think you probably do equal amounts of climbing and descending!

You’ve never seen him on the downlifts?

Agreed, beautiful bike!

Though, for the same or less money you could build a custom steel or ti frame with every little detail specced exactly as you wish and have something a little more personal perhaps? I like the ideal of choosing the frame’s practicalities, ride feel and fit so this is an option that would personally appeal to me more (a steel Cyclo Toxto or Amaro or something like that would do nicely) although I don’t don’t doubt the Soda and Sync are great frames too.

@mattjg, thanks, that’s really good feedback. To be honest the material question was a bit of a red herring and the real question was between the styles of bikes, geometry as you say.

Thinking about what you have said I am now edging towards the Niner, or perhaps even a Nimble 🙂 The reason being is my current bike is a short travel full sus, BMC Fourstroke, 100mm rear, 120mm front with 70d head angle, basically a slightly softened XC racer. The Sync seems to be very close to this and I will end up with two bikes very similar. Therefore the ROS9 will offer me something very different. It will be interesting as to which one I would take to Surrey Hills, full sus or HT for downhill fun?

OK good, hope I helped.

N9 vs ROS9 – not much in it AFAIK. N9 has sliders, R9 has an EBB. Geo is very similar I think. Possibly the R9 is a bit more burly.

There’s a comment in the Bikeradar review of the R9 about how it feels like it has a few mm of rear travel and the rear wheel sticks to the ground (they even wondered if they had a flat), the N9 feels exactly like that too. It’s certainly more easy going in the rear than my Yelli Screamy, bit I’d never call it noodly..

The current N9 has a 27.2 seat tube, so if a dropper is important to you make sure you can get one. I use an XFusion HiLo. It’s a medium and I’m in Dorking if you want a go. Up until very recently they were 30.9 I think, mine was almost the first 27.2 in the UK.

Pic and musings on travel of my N9 are here: http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-bikes/canfield-nimble-9-build-thread-725555-74.html#post11537955 (appeals to STW for linking to MTBR, I wouldn’t do that if you did pic hosting!)

My friend has a steel grey ROS9, it’s gorgeous too. I’d settle for either. I only ever rode it around Westcott Green for a minute so can’t really give a first hand ride report but expect it’s not much different to my N9.

The Sync – I was disappointed when it was released that it wasn’t more trail geo, that’s what I was expecting. if it had been I’d have bought one. Everyone who has one loves it and it’s a thing of beauty. I think it probably takes a more skilled pilot, riding closer to the edge of the envelope, to get the best out of it (compared to the ?9s) and in the right hands it will always be a rocket.

Nobody really “needs” a boinger for Surrey Hills, unless perhaps they’re doing all those bonkers gap jumps. I don’t do that tho my buddy on the R9 does. I do all the known trails and some of the lesser known ones happily on the N9, it’s way more capable than I am.

Let us know how you get on.

ps yeah I know about those ugly braided brake hoses, they’re gone now!

Cheers Matt once again. The only concern I have for the ROS9 is the Biocentric bottom bracket thingy, how well will that last? Will it start creaking? A bit new to know what it’s going to be like after a few months of winter riding. So the N9 is a bit more straight forward I guess with the sliders.

Did you get yours from Charliethebikemonger? Or via a different route? For the ROS9 I believe QuestAdventures in Worthing deal with Niner so will go talk to them.

Thanks for the link, will do a bit of reading.

As the Sync is very similar to my current bike geometry I assume I will settle into to it fairly well but to drop that amount of money and then be disappointed would be a crime!

I am thinking of running 140mm forks on either bike. The guys at Kinesis have confirmed the Sync rides well like this and obviously slakens of the head a bit more although it does raise the BB by 10mm. Would love to get a demo on one but no such luck with that bike. Both the ROS and N9 also say they will run 140mm, what are you running?