Video of us Dh'ing it somewhere in this lot

Fair enough! I think it's a case of what you're used to and what you have to work with.

We have lots of short sharp hills around here, so our courses tend to reflect that. You have bigger hills, so you are able to design courses that do just go up, then down. I've not heard as many complaints as I did of Moelfre in 2006 at least!

It just seems sometimes that any major Scottish race becomes a case of willy waving and showing how technical courses can be made so people can puff their chests out and say 'this is what we ride all the time, like it or lump it', which I think is an awkward position to take. There's also the issues of people moaning about the rarity of a Scottish NPS race, but entry numbers are always down at races north of the border.

It's difficult, you have the ability to make courses very technical, people moan, courses tend to be faster and more flowing more down south, people moan!

I frmly believe that xc mountainbike courses should have technical tests on them or else it really becomes purely a test of fitness. The challenge should be IMO sort of red grade. ( but adjusted for the level of the race) I would like to see the course laid out with a few technical bits with chicken runs where the chicken run takes 10 – 20 seconds longer. No walking down the technical bit – marshal it and have a sin bin they have to stop in if they try to walk the shorter technical bit. This would give riders with riding ability an advantage

the champs course was done by steve at i-cycles.

he's somewhat "old skool" in how he likes his tracks. 'back in the day with proper technical descents and good long climbs to sort the men from the boys'. so to speak

most of our courses are more rolling, its just the odd one your up for seems to be a straight up/down affair 😀

the only scottish races for the nps i can think of are drumlanrig, which isn't that technical. its just got more roots than people from down south seem to be used to. (its a much more rolling course surely?) and tends to be wet on the weekend of an nps…

on the flat thing, i like thetford, its a massive bmx track 😀
and agree that one like that in a series is good…

went along later to watch the DH and there were loads of kids walking about with fresh slings on. and a mate of mine coaches for scottish cycling said loads of people were crapping it because the course was so technical. shows what you take for granted when you're used to it. Notably, in the junior sections at least, Scottish riders won every category (and usually 2nd and / or 3rd too).

Not that I'm blowing the Scots' trumpets, it was after all the British champs…

oh, and had it stayed dry. the course was totally different…

scot's won everything in the morning xc race (youth/junior/juvenile. in both male and female, with usually another scot on the podium somewhere…)

I recon we'd do better with races more like rally's or enduro's.

Timed technical sections, with connecting sections and cut-off times to get between them. The inbetween bits dont have to be easy, but should be a test of fitness, so the cut-off time should be the time you'd expect 4/5ths of the field to make (i.e. over the course of a day/race you'd expect to lose a good half of the field).

Simply_oli_y is the BUSAS xc at innners the same that was used in 2005 by any chance?

If you as me the downhill bit to the 2005xc was much much more interesting than the proper DH.

Didn't find it massively technical, just technical enough to be funny. I like that because it give a chance to people like me that are not that good at going up.

as a totally irrelevant person: "this thread is worthless without pics".
Show me some pics from the race, please!

Ahhhh, Inners xc racing, takes me back. I remember during an xc race there being gridded alongside an ol'boy who had a Michelin dh tye (comp 14/24?) on the front, this is when a 1.95 was seen as hardcore for racing! "Wasthat for" I said – "oh you'll see" he replied. Oh boy he was right, as within 20ish yards they sent the whole mentally competitive masters pack straight off the fireroad and down onto a section of dh track – crash-tastic, no quarter given, elbows out, the works!
He, was Tom that used to run the Inners bikeshop (Bikeworks/ cannae mind) and yes he knew how to ride!
Crivens, and I've just remembered that this was before risers and most guys had silly wee flatbars n barends – me included.
Funny thing is I'm sure I was faster then than I am now on a 5" full-susser or is that just my rose-tinted memory…..

bikesport in innerleithen in the old church where alpine is now aviemoron. , ec , jim and co …

woulda been a wildgripper DH back then at that width old bat wing type ? weighed as much as my bike …

Show me some pics from the race, please!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/naegears/sets/72157621577266583/

not enough information! more pics please!

scot's won everything in the morning xc race

So does that prove Scots are the best mountain bikers, or that they're the best at riding on their home terrain? (Serious question).

How many Scots won last year at Crow Hill? (again, serious question!)

not enough information!
?

more pics please!
that's all my decent ones.

Nick – Dunkeld BUSA course was a piece of crap, nothing on the climb. Descent was OK though.

Inners 2005 BUSA course is never likely to be repeated, boring climb, and just too long a lap.

Scots do tend to do better on more technical courses (Dalby being a good example). When it comes to less technical stuff, we have a different name for those…..road races! It shouldn't just be cardio work on a surface that isn't tarmac. Kenta won youths at Crow Hill last year, juniors at Inners this year. Gareth had a similar finishing position in senior.

Few more photos here!

For what its worth not all the Scottish courses consist of big climbs followed by techy descents. In fact this years Scottish Champs at Fort Bill had a great mix of natural descents interspersed with several climbs over the lap. The round at Kirroughtree was also pretty undulating. Techy descents are usually a feature though!

Cheers to all the marshalls and support yesterday, enjoyed the course even though all the traffic and rain made it pretty muddy compared to the way it was in the lead up to the event.

I reckon that xc courses should be full on technical. Why not, this is supposed to be mountain biking, not cyclocross.

If riders can't ride it because they don't have the skills because they are roadies who got lost, then tough, MTFU.

If riders can't ride it on their 20lb carbon hardtails with 24" wide flat bars, then, well, they should change their bikes to something resembling a real mountain bike so they can.

Maybe more riders would get involved with it the various series then.

Mansonsoul, you can't get too tech or everyone would be better off running, and for that matter running with a cyclocross bike to make the flat bits quicker 🙂 Climbs can't be too tech or everyone just jumps off and runs up (it is a race after all) should be just tech enough so it's quicker to ride it all rather than jumpoffbike-runuphill-jumponbike

I'm with the longer slower chicken run idea (I have seen some chicken runs shorter and faster than the obstacle itself – daft), I hadn't thought about a sin bin for tech walkers tho, good idea.

Then ban running too! Bah, I'm a fascist aren't I? 🙂

I reckon that xc courses should be full on technical. Why not, this is supposed to be mountain biking, not cyclocross.

An xc race is a Cross Country Race, I reckon feet, cyclo-cross bikes, bmx bikes, hell even canoes if you feel so inclined, should be allowed. In my mind it's all about who can move fastest over the given terrain.

but we aint allowed cross bikes …… but im hearing you of if thats the fastest ride over that terrain then why not ….

if they got away with it people would justh ave a cross bike and the majority would pressure them to make courses tamer ….

Horse? I think it's a mountain bike* cross country race 🙂

*definition of mountain bike is a whole other subject

Dougal, Scots do indeed fare better on technical courses, my question is whether that's down to the fact they ride them all the time. Kenta is clearly an awesome rider, he'll excel on any course, although Steve James shat on him at Sherwood!

I don't really see why people think that courses that don't have crazy technical bits are road races though, whilst none of the courses down here are that technical, we don't have rocky terrain for a start, they're hardly road races like Thetford or Sherwood.

A lot of our courses are relatively technical, it's just more tight twitchy stuff, rather than really steep rocky stuff, arguably requires as much skill to ride fast, just less about balls, which frankly is what a lot of the 'really' technical courses seem to be about!

difference of opinion nick,
i don't think any of us racing scots would call a tight/twisty track technical.
it would just be a winding/twisty track…

don't need rocks, inners showed that, not really much rock on the course…
drumlanrig a prime example of non rocky but technical.
aberfoyle didn't have much rock (on coures anyway)…

its we like to ride something interesting. and find just twisting through the tree's rather dull!

and its not just about balls, being able to move a bike about, and ride one properly is what its about!

Twisty through trees is just a way to make a dull trail more interesting IMO, and not a very good one at that.

It is indeed a difference of opinion Oli, but my point is that there seems to be some arrogance about Scottish races that 'this is how real courses are, we're so hardcore, nothing else is worth riding', which I don't like!

Seems like there were some massive flaws with what should be the biggest domestic race of the year too: Clicky

You'll all have to head south next year to ride round a field.

Njee – those courses aren't hardcore in anyway shape or form. The course that was raced on at the weekend was a toned down version of that which was originally planned. The sport is called mountain biking, mountains are steep, the have rocks….

THe xcracer thread is just a small number of people that are asking for way too much…..

It's clearly degrading into a 'you' and 'us' debate, which is petty at best!

Knowing the people commenting I don't think what they're saying is out of order, with a couple of exceptions.

Shall we count the spectators?

Thats about the same number of spectators they had at the worlds at fort bill. XC isn't really a spectator sport.

If you take a couple of exceptions out of that thread you are left with one person with a valid point. That hardly indicates massive problems.

Nick, given that you weren't there I find your comments out of order! 🙄

As for spectators there were loads lining the climb and the downhill on the main course where it was interesting to watch. The nature of the course meant there was never going to be a sprint finish (Liam had 2 mins on Oli) so folk watched from the trackside.

I live near to Thetford and know fully well that nowhere within the locality is any form of Mountain Biking. Thank the lord im at university in mid-Wales. I would never enter SITS or similar due to the fact they are just riding round a field, if someone decided to do a SITS in the Dyfi forest however…

Stu, my comments are just based on what others have said, repeatedly, the only real accusation I've made specifically against this race is the lack of an atmosphere, which seems unanimously to be the case. Otherwise my comments have been generalisations about racing, which I feel qualified to make. If you don't like that, fine.

I just think it's a bit sad for people like Liam, and other winners, that there's no one there to cheer them home. Stark contrast to last year certainly.

It does seem a bit of a shame that only a few were at the finish line to cheer the winners :(, there were a lot watching along the way although with only about 60% of riders actually riding the descents properly quite a few wandered over to watch the DH riding instead. Top marks to the top guys/gals and some others that did ride things properly.

Once the XC stuff was finished I went over to the DH stuff, much more exciting and very good to watch, funnily enough no one got off to 'walk' any sections- including the young guy that went face first into a tree, got up, shook his head then got back on his bike – OUCH. (yes I do know they are riding very different bikes etc etc but the XC stuff wasnt mega steep or as gnarly as the DH stuff)

Overall a good day and it was good to watch both the XC and DH stuff and seemed well organised/marshalled.

Seems to be only 7 voices repeating themselves on xcracer, so if I were Helen I'd not take it to heart.

And of course a race course should be technical- these are supposed to be the best mountain bikers in the country. If they can't get over it, then they aren't a good enough mountain biker to do well.

I'd guess most of the winners did get over it, the question is whether you want to appeal to the best riders, or the masses.

The money is in attracting the latter, I don't know about SXCs and such but the Gorricks regularly have 100 in each of Fun and Open and 10 in Elite.

If the courses were crazy technical you'd probably still get the 10 in Elite, but you'd also get rid of 2/3 of the 'fun' riders!

They want to appeal to the best riders. It's the british champs, not "who's the best member of the masses". The masses (like me) aren't good enough.