I quite like this article regarding Pogacar’s physical abilities; of note is how young he was when talent spotted.

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/8831/tadej-pogacar-the-man-who-would-be-king

Somewhere in there it talks about how calm he is. Given his age, the effect his calm and confidence can’t be understated, and at this level is a real game changer – it’s something you can’t inhale, inject or ingest in any way; it in his genetics.

Roglic is incredibly good at staying calm even when it seems that he is losing major race, e.g. P-N this Sunday and that battle with Carapaz. Lesser person would have folded in many times no matter how good his team mates were or if he had any left.

Roglic is mighty bloody good but I suspect Pog is a step up again.  I guess this year will tell us a lot more

For me Rog has too many falls and just feels a bit try-hard, seemingly pushing his luck sometimes (and needlessly, which doesn’t shout “calm” to me)
Pog looks in control pretty much all the time (up and down), which makes me think he’s often nowhere near his physiological limit which then allows him to think clearly and keep better perspective

It’ll be interesting if we see him really put under pressure, say a time gap after a TTT or maybe a crash – or if he gets ill but he just doesn’t seem to do that

I doubt any of them is clean, though

Doping suspicions aside, I much prefer to see Roglič racing. Knowing that no matter how dominant he looks he’s just one bad day away from losing adds a bit more excitement.

Pogačar has the same thing that Froome had – not actually a boring racer but ends up making races boring.

GCN racing news show had some amazing stats on the Pog and his general health (and keeping it rubber side down) 36 out of 36 UCI stage races completed!

2 pro tour riders like that from a country that has a population the size of 2 Birminghams, 1/6th the size of Belgium. Statistically unlikely but not impossible.

This occurred to me a while ago. It’s not just 2 pro tour riders, there are a few others who are well known, eg Tratnik and Mohoric, off the top of my head. Slovenia has a population about a million less than Wales, and very roughly the same number of well known pro cyclists, or maybe a few more currently but the same sort of numbers. It’s not inconceivable that a great generation is pushing each other on, although I’m still suspicious about the actual level of their performances..

GCN racing news show had some amazing stats on the Pog and his general health (and keeping it rubber side down) 36 out of 36 UCI stage races completed!

You tend to crash less when you are less fatigued, and doping helps with that, surely? If they are trying to show that his success is partly due to not crashing then they might be looking at it the wrong way round.

2 pro tour riders like that from a country that has a population the size of 2 Birminghams, 1/6th the size of Belgium. Statistically unlikely but not impossible.

Look how many pro-riders the Isle of Man has produced, or how many riders a single bike club like Maindy Flyers has produced though, these things tend to come in patterns often…

You tend to crash less when you are less fatigued, and doping helps with that, surely? If they are trying to show that his success is partly due to not crashing then they might be looking at it the wrong way round.

Depends on the produce i guess, wasn’t the now banned Tramadol blamed for loads of accidents?

It’ll be interesting if we see him really put under pressure, say a time gap after a TTT

Probably not going to happen as he’s at least as good if not better than all the other GC contenders when they’re up against the clock, Roglic is probably the only one better than him on the TT.

You tend to crash less when you are less fatigued, and doping helps with that, surely?

Meanwhile Geraint Thomas is sat at home wondering why no one has bothered to test him for the last 5 years

so they are very specifically and deliberately used phrases in pro cycling and my point is Landa also would know this.

To be fair, most of the current peloton – bar Valverde who is now in his 90s – are too young to remember the whole Lance era doping thing at firsthand and there’s no reason why professional cyclists should also be students of the history of cycling and doping. Some are, some aren’t. There’s always an assumption that somehow pro cyclists in their 20s should be au fait with everything that, say, Lance Armstrong ever said. That seems unrealistic to me.

I don’t know who is doping and who isn’t and neither does anyone else on this thread, which is mostly just people making stuff up.

Meanwhile Geraint Thomas is sat at home wondering why no one has bothered to test him for the last 5 years

Brutal, would say man down but it feels wrong

there’s no reason why professional cyclists should also be students of the history of cycling

I’d agree with that bit, however I’d argue they really should be at least familiar with the history of doping* and the whole lance thing, mainly because they should be able to spot it and (hopefully) not go down the same path. If you don’t know your history you’re doomed to repeat it.
That said recalling turns of phrase or specific quotes is as important to that as knowing all the lines to monty python and the Holy grail is to enjoying the film.

*not just cycling, the whole east German, soviet and later Russian doping structure, things like Sharapova forgetting the end of a TUE and so on.

Depends on the produce i guess, wasn’t the now banned Tramadol blamed for loads of accidents?

Who’d have thought that Tramadol would make people drowsy?

Meanwhile Geraint Thomas is sat at home wondering why no one has bothered to test him for the last 5 years

I was tempted to use G as an example in my original post, but thought that might be mean.

😀

Steve_b77

It’ll be interesting if we see him really put under pressure, say a time gap after a TTT

I think the point was the third T? I.e. UAE wouldn’t be expected to be in the top ranks in a Team TT as they would largely have a team of mountain domestiques. Mind you, Pog could probably just let thenother 7 sit on his wheel!

As for Tratnik, I remember his performances in the Worlds then Olympics last year were ‘out of this world’.

To me, it is not just about the individuals. You look at whole teams that are performing way above the others or exceptionally compared to their previous track record – UAE winning everything Jumbo dominating, Bahrain last year with some eye popping performances. I do sometimes wonder what their secret is. They certainly haven’t shared it with Ineos.

I do watch and hope it is all done clean, but then I believed in Lance and defended him to the last. So I guess I might be a bit naïve.

most of the current peloton are too young to remember the whole Lance era doping thing at firsthand and there’s no reason why professional cyclists should also be students of the history of cycling and doping.

That’s all true, but there are a few well known phrases in cycling, and I don’t believe that anyone in the pro peloton is näïvë to them.

I’m also pretty sure that most of the peloton has a better understanding (even better than us armchair racers) of when a performance is “good” vs “too good”.

There’s no way that choice of words was accidental IMHO!

Who would want to ride a bike whilst on Tramadol? I was given some once for busted up ribs from going over the bars. They were pretty full-on and I soon forgot about what hurt.

I’ve been prescribed Prednisolone before and I believe that was the same stuff Wiggins was on? I was smashing PB’s on climbs like never before thanks to that.

You tend to crash less when you are less fatigued, and doping helps with that, surely? If they are trying to show that his success is partly due to not crashing then they might be looking at it the wrong way round.

I suppose it depends on what dope; I’m fairly certain dopers also get knackered.

I’m looking at this another way, Roglic only started riding a bike (not racing) in 2007 in a bid to recover from a skiing injury. He turned pro at the age of 24 in 2013 & started winning in 2016 (thereabouts). He has been a pro then for just over 8 years. He makes as many mistakes as any other pro with limited experience, and he also sometimes over extends or misjudges his effort. Look at his disastrous TT that lost him the tour – he was cooked.

Pogacar was already road racing & winning when he was 9 years old against rivals 2-3 years older than him (this age gap is really significant in terms of physical/sporting ability). Was he doping then or was he physically/genetically gifted?

So in terms of race craft, with which I’d lump bike handling, physical effort, the ability to read a race, position yourself, measured effort etc. Pogacar is streets ahead and is consequently far less likely to crash.

There has been suspicion of Roglic and a lot of other Slovenian cyclists as they were reportedly linked to Operation Aderlass via a team coach/trainer.

Looking at the drug history in sport and not just cycling I don’t think I could believe anyone is 100% clean. There is always those who will try and find a way to cheat. But it doesn’t stop my enjoyment of watching it.

Wonder if a mitochondria boosting drug exists that is hard to detect 🤔

Bingo!

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00037-2/fulltext

Although I’m no scientist so I don’t know if this would actually work.

Another idea I had was gene doping when athletes are young and developing, again there seems to suggest that this was pursued 10-15 years ago. Wonder if they made a breakthrough that we don’t know about since then.

https://morgansl.com/en/latest/gene-doping-fiction-or-future

It is suspicious (IMO) that so many young riders are performing so well against established riders. Some who are known ex dopers.

If riders are doping today then the setup is very different to the Lance era. For one Lance led the programme. If Pog is doping he’s being led. Doesn’t make it right. But different impetus.

I’m not naive enough to say it’s not happening. Human Powered Health quietly dropped one of their riders the other day. And everyone has a good idea why.

Human Powered Health quietly dropped one of their riders the other day. And everyone has a good idea why.

Assuming you’re talking about Olivia Ray, there’s a bit more to the story than doping – there’s a fairly complex picture of domestic abuse involved. A bit more background here:

New Zealand champion Olivia Ray dropped by team with USADA investigation underway

To me, it is not just about the individuals. You look at whole teams that are performing way above the others or exceptionally compared to their previous track record – UAE winning everything Jumbo dominating, Bahrain last year with some eye popping performances. I do sometimes wonder what their secret is. They certainly haven’t shared it with Ineos.

This all kind of runs with my self found theory that every at any given time a team or said individual on that team is allowed to operate on the limits of what the UCI deem reasonable as it’s fantastic for the sport outside of the inner circle of actual cyclists who care / know a bit, it lets the companies who throw literally millions at teams recover their investments etc.

Once said team / individual “time is up” and they come to the end of the “agreement” they go quietly, say with a season long injury, a mysterious illness, a career threatening crash that no one catches on social media and let things lie for a while. In the meantime another power comes to the fore and dominates for a few years and so on and so on. Said individual is then allowed after their “recovery” to rejoin for a swansong and no doubt a big pay cheque to see out their career.

If they make too much of a song and dance, don’t go quietly or heaven forbid win big again the UCI and WADA got to town on them.

I guess the best thing to do is look at the history of professional cycling and ask how many amazing performances turned out to be helped along by chemical enhancements?

I guess the best thing to do is to look at the history of internet comments about professional cycling and ask how many amazing performances were questioned by sceptics insinuating that doping was to blame.

That’ll be most of them then.

As others have said, Rog has looked all too fallible from time to time and wouldn’t be my first pick as a doping suspect.

I don’t even think Pog is likely to be at it, but as BWD said – none of us know about any of them for sure. And that’s the insidious legacy of the EPO years slightly tarnishing our enjoyment of the sport.

Interesting thread. I’m really not into the conspiracy theories that the teams and doctors are one step ahead all of the time….mainly because I bury my head and hope the racing is clean.
But…..blooming eck Pog is amazing. Even someone as naive as me is worrying. I’ve not seen another rider similar for decades. Really good at the classics, lone breakaways, TT’s, Grand Tours.
It’s not just that he’s good at them, he destroys the opposition.

Roglic I actually really rate and love watching him race. He was completely spent after P-N final stage. He had just won the race, one he had lost last year on the final day, and he was too exhausted to be happy at the end of the race. He knew full well that he had to completely empty the tank, he knew that it was partially the efforts of WVA that helped him get the victory. That’s not the first time in stage races where there’s been the glimmer of vulnerability, I don’t see that with Pog. He never looks under pressure.

Completely agree about some performances last season being questionable though, not just UAE riders but also Bahrain. I’m not just thinking dodgy foreigners, also think the same of certain Brit riders from days gone by. I like to think G is clean though.

That’s not the first time in stage races where there’s been the glimmer of vulnerability, I don’t see that with Pog. He never looks under pressure.

Completely agree about some performances last season being questionable though, not just UAE riders but also Bahrain. I’m not just thinking dodgy foreigners, also think the same of certain Brit riders from days gone by. I like to think G is clean though.

I agree on the Roglic part, perhaps his relative inexperience plays a part, or perhaps he’s just a nervous kind of guy / rider.

Pog on the other hand seems to relish it, I always like the UAE tour thingy that Yates tries his very best to smash Pog and he just rides off, hair sticking out of his helmet, with a look of “you can try, but you and I both know you’re not good enough to beat me”

I think you’d be very lucky to find any rider at the top who hasn’t been part of a “training plan” regardless of country of origin, let alone massively funded medal factories.

Completely agree about some performances last season being questionable though, not just UAE riders but also Bahrain.

Speaking of Bahrain… Sonny Colbrelli had a particularly extensive and superb vein of form last year, didn’t he?

His performance on stage 9 of last year’s Tour was frankly amazing. A sprinter beating the worlds best climbers on a mountain stage? Mmmmmmm, this one is a real outlier.

Milan San Remo this weekend will be interesting. Both Rog and Pog due to race, along with Alaphilippe, WVA and Pidcock.
I’m talking purely racing terms and not in anyway referring to doping.

Can any of the sprinters get over the final climb? Matthews as an outside bet?

And that’s the insidious legacy of the EPO years slightly tarnishing our enjoyment of the sport.

Before there was EPO there was HGH and amphetamines, it’s pretty much always been a doper’s sport?
(not the same as suggesting they’re all at it – just that it’s hardly been an occasional thing)

Can any of the sprinters get over the final climb?

Is Caleb Ewan racing? He would be the favourite among the sprinters surely.

Before there was EPO there was HGH and amphetamines, it’s pretty much always been a doper’s sport?

Yes, but I was thinking more of the whole toxic Lance Armstrong saga – the superstar status, the emphatic denials, the personal unpleasantness and the vilification of the media.

All those years of “is he or isn’t he” set an unhealthy template for discussions such as this one right here.

IMO anyway.

Yep Ewan is on the start list as well. One of my favourite races so really looking forward to it.

Is Caleb Ewan racing? He would be the favourite among the sprinters surely.

He’ll either crash or retire with “knee trouble”

Before there was EPO there was HGH and amphetamines, it’s pretty much always been a doper’s sport?

Yup, pre and post WWII brandy, cocaine etc. “1920s when brothers Francis and Henri Pélissier (the 1923 Tour winner) boasted to a journalist that they had “cocaine to go in our eyes, chloroform for our gums, and do you want to see the pills? We keep going on dynamite. In the evenings we dance around our rooms instead of sleeping.” Needless to say, the Pélissier brothers were French cycling heroes”

Merckx tested positive at least FOUR times… He got kicked out of a Giro d’Italia (which leading for 16 stages in ’69), after winning Lombardia in ’73, at Fleche Wallone in ’75, then in ’77 for amphetamines.

Tom Simpson dying on teh slopes of Ventoux smacked off his eyeballs on amphetamines.

Read “A dog in the hat” if you fancy getting up to speed, excuse the pun, on pro racing in Europe in the 80’s and 90’s

And so it continues, regardless of what the governing body do to “clean up” the sport, they actually don’t seem to give a shit until the offender gets out of hand, or…….

I’m sure most of us are aware of the history of PEDs Steve.

And cycling certainly isn’t alone in having a murky past, but I guess doping was more endemic in cycling than in many other sports because it had an established professional structure way back. And it was really bloody hard.

Yeah we all know Merckx was popped several times, but why doesn’t he bear the same stigma as the EPO cheats? Are we more tolerant of a bit of whizz? Was it just too long ago to care? Would he probably have won anyway? Was his personal conduct less grating than Armstrong’s? All of the above?

stevious
Full Member
Doping suspicions aside, I much prefer to see Roglič racing. Knowing that no matter how dominant he looks he’s just one bad day away from losing adds a bit more excitement.

Pogačar has the same thing that Froome had – not actually a boring racer but ends up making races boring.

Posted 1 day ago

Perfect summary, 100% agree!

I’m sure most of us are aware of the history of PEDs Steve.

The thing is, I don’t think “most” people are aware as it’s only relatively recently it’s become more mainstream outside of it’s European heartlands, yes people who follow it are aware, but to the casual, more recently engaged fan, I’d be surprised if they are.

Why are certain people tolerated and others not, probably due to attitude, the way they stepped away and the way they handle themselves now, but for me, Merckx is treading a very fine line nowadays with his comments on alleged motor-doping, certain young riders and the like, the saying does go there are none so pure as the purified, after all.

Much like why certain Olympic athletes are tolerated despite dodgy pasts, missed tests, unknown whereabouts etc. etc. whereas others are vilified. If the media decides to love you, they love you, if they decide to haunt you, game over.

Thought I’d resurrect this thread rather than start another similar.

I’m sat watching the Eurosport preamble to Paris – Roubaix, interviews & such like and saw that Heinrich Haussler had retired with cardiac problems. It occurred to me that he is the second Bahrain rider to retire with cardiac issues. Not long after some pretty impressive performances Sonny Colbrelli had to retire with cardiac problems. Couple this with this team being reported to the UCI for unusual performances, and traces of a drug called Tizanidine being found in 3 hair samples from “a professional cycling team during an international three-week cyclist race in France.”

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/three-international-racing-cyclists-found-with-muscle-relaxant-in-their-system-after-police-request-samples-researchers-reveal

Which happened after this:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/police-raid-bahrain-victorious-hotel-at-tour-de-france/

Here’s a bit about the drug:

Heart rhythm: Tizanidine can cause changes to the normal rhythm of the heart, including an irregular heartbeat called QT prolongation. QT prolongation is a serious life-threatening condition that can cause fainting, seizures, and sudden death.

https://www.rexall.ca/article/drug/view/id/1322/

If they’ve found some form of advantage by using this drug, I’m kinda shocked that warnings of cardiac issues would be ignored, and this drug would be given to some very naturally talented riders (I base this on youth results). All 2+2 guesswork, of course.

I’ve gone off watching cycling a bit these days as I think that there is something rotten about some of the performances. Maybe I was naive when I thought that the sport had cleaned itself up.

The white jersey highlights the issue IMO, it used to be thought that you couldn’t win the likes of the TDF untill you had matured in your later twenties. Not so much now.

Could CRISPR be used in cycling?

CRISPR gene doping: The next ‘big issue’ in world athletics