and surprisingly the snowboarders are big on them.

Not really thats the spot that hits the floor when edges disengage on a board

Dales’ position looks fine to me given he’s heading for the camera. That stick isn’t dragging, it looks more like he’s doing the standard powder/clag planté de bâton.

only teasing about the skiing, I’m no expert

Do you watch many

Haha clearly not enough!

No appropriate protective gear?

1) Does not understand the risk.
or
2) Does not want to accept the risk.

Seems like its a “Risk analysis” for even the top skiers/boarders. Just the same for MTBing if I was riding along the canal towpaths around where I live maybe not bother with a lid, single track through forest such as Stainburn I wouldnt ride without one.
Yesterday venture through the trees there was a lot of short crags and trees very close steep ground and stuff coming down from mate skiing above and right, didnt need the helmet but who knows might of done.

Two days ago skiing with first skier to ski down the North face of the Midi skiing off piste with no helmet, guess he thought it well within his abilities bit like me on a towpath.

No appropriate protective gear?

1) Does not understand the risk.
or
2) Does not want to accept the risk.
or
3) Has accepted the risk and taken appropriate precautions

FTFY.

I’ll say it again, as the helmets on here seem to have covered people’s ears and they can’t hear. Or they’re stupid, perhaps too many hits to the head.

I know there’s a risk. There is a risk driving a car (a bigger one in fact), but I don’t wear a helmet. I put trainers on to walk to the station this morning on the icy pavement, I had planned to ride, but decided it wasn’t worth the risk of crashing.

These are all risk assessments I have made. When I ski I make a similar one. The result is that I don’t deem a helmet necessary for what I’m doing. If my skiing changed then I would wear one. You are entitled to wear one. You are in no position to judge me for my decision.

I’ve only ever broken one helmet riding, caught up in a crash at the start of a race, didn’t even realise I’d hit my head, but I still wear one because I perceive the risk to be far higher than when I ski.

Wearing a helmet increases the risk of a neck injury
So its not just a case of why not

I suppose you need to analyse your riding/how you fall and figure out is it going to be a help or a hinderance.
When I looked at the impact absorption information I figured it it wasn’t worth it, I wanted to take an informed decision so I took the time to find out some facts

Neck braces are becoming increasingly adopted in Mountain Biking to mitigate the risk
So if you’re opinion is why not wear a helmet, then go with the neck brace too?

Or maybe just stay in the bar and have a drink…

Or maybe just stay in the bar and have a drink…

Number of people injured drinking vs skiing? Shouldn’t leave the house.

Actually, more people die in house accidents. Stay in bed.

Actually, people die falling out of bed. Where does it end!?

I’ve no issue with anyone choosing not to wear a helmet to ski.
And I haven’t slagged anyone off for not wearing one, or praised anyone for wearing one.

Its personal choice, and if people are aware of the relative risk involved of what they do then thats great.

But if someone says they don’t need one because they are a good skier, or they don’t need one because they only ski on piste, and it seems like they may have misjudged the risk, then I will say something.

Does that make me an “evangelical tosser” or “stupid from too many hits to the head” ?

Or am I just being helpful by letting people know of risks they may not have considered, so they can maybe do a more accurate risk assessment for themselves ?

njee20

I don’t think you understood this part of my post.

“No appropriate protective gear?”

Which is a variable. As you say its up to an individual to work out what’s appropriate but. Thats all I meant.

I’ve no issue with anyone choosing not to wear a helmet to ski.
And I haven’t slagged anyone off for not wearing one, or praised anyone for wearing one.

Its personal choice, and if people are aware of the relative risk involved of what they do then thats great.

But if someone says they don’t need one because they are a good skier, or they don’t need one because they only ski on piste, and it seems like they may have misjudged the risk, then I will say something.

Does that make me an “evangelical tosser” or “stupid from too many hits to the head” ?

Nope, and my comments weren’t aimed at you. I just don’t get what qualifies people to tell others they’re wrong.

Wearing a helmet increases the risk of a neck injury

Do you have links to any information on that (specific to skiing)

I’d be interested if you do.

Nope, and my comments weren’t aimed at you. I just don’t get what qualifies people to tell others they’re wrong.

Fair enough, if they are telling you that not wearing a helmet is wrong.

But if they are telling you things that may make your assessment of the risk involved wrong, then I personally think that’s ok. It’s all information that can be used to make a decision.

njee20

I don’t think you understood this part of my post.

“No appropriate protective gear?”

Perhaps not, the key point being everyone’s definition of ‘appropriate’ varies.

Fact most skiing injuries are in the car park.
This was certainly true yesterday, daughter trapped her fingers in my bike rack which doubles up a a ski rack.
BTW she had a helmet on 🙂

Sure it does but sometimes the decision is clouded by

1) Does not understand the risk.
or
2) Does not want to accept the risk.

That’s all I meant. Im not specifically judging you or anyone else. Its just an observation.

Interesting site
Have a gander

That’s all I meant. Im not specifically judging you or anyone else. Its just an observation.

Fair enough!

Sorry its been a while since researched this and I don’t have any of the info to hand
I remember it being a pain to find too, nobody’s going to get paid to come find this kind of conclusion. Whereas if everyones concluding helmets are great and there’s nowt wrong with wearing one then somebody makes money, so you’ll find a lot of research like that.

I once lost a 1 5l bottle or coke down a black run. Hope it didn’t hurt anyone who was within their comfort zone

Did just find this paper
Risk of neck injury
Which uses a hell of a lot of fancy stats to indicate that the increase in risk of neck injury is not significant

“In the unconditional logistic regression analysis, regardless of the severity of the neck injury, the crude odds ratios all indicated that there were statistically significantly increased odds of neck injury among skiers and snowboarders who wore a helmet compared with skiers and snowboarders who did not. However, after adjustment, the odds ratios were not significant”
and
“The crude analysis showed that there were significantly higher odds of neck injury among persons wearing a helmet compared with those not wearing a helmet (OR = 1.20, 95% CI: 1.06, 1.36); however, the strength of the association decreased and was not statistically significant after controlling for potential confounders (OR = 1.07, 95% CI: 0.93, 1.22)”

I’d need to take the paper apart to figure out what the adjustments were and why they’ve done them.

From the Link above :

Conclusions

We did not find evidence of a relation between helmet use and the risk of neck injuries among skiers and snowboarders, regardless of the severity of the neck injury. Among children, who have a larger head-to-body ratio than adults, there was also no statistically significant association. Regardless of the results, reductions in the weight of ski and snowboard helmets that offer adequate protection should remain a goal for manufacturers. Our study provides additional evidence that helmets do not significantly increase the risk of neck injuries among skiers and snowboarders, and their use should be encouraged.

That’s one of the examples I was talking about really.

When someone says “wearing a helmet increases the risk of neck injury”

It adjusts people’s view of whether to wear one or not. It makes their “risk assessment” a bit dodgy if they are using information like that to base a decision on.

The thing is you really need to read the paper and come to your own conclusion, because it looks to me like there is a significant link but if you spin the figures far enough you can show that its not a significant increased risk.

TBH I can’t see how there couldn’t be just based on the physics, but I do think its small, and how can falling uncontrollably down a mountain off a bike be that much different?

I don’t have a helmet for snowboarding, and I don’t think I will

I have a good helmet for downhill mountain biking and I’m seriously considering a neck brace too

All my xc helmets have a rounded back ie no pointy out aero bits to act as levers and break my neck

I have read that one, and a few others that all have the same end conclusion.

I wouldn’t presume to know any better than they do, so my own conclusion is that there is no proof that wearing a helmet increases the risk of neck injuries.

So when someone says exactly the opposite of that, I will ask for some proof 😉

farty81 – Member

This again: Remember, you’re more likely to get a serious head injury in a car. Car helmets anyone? Didn’t think so.

This really is one of the biggest straw men of all time though… When humankind travels the same distance by ski as we do by car, and take the same length of time, in the same environment, then it becomes relevant.

Sorry I’ve seen through too many scientific papers and known too much inside information in the past to take someone else’s conclusion for granted, and a quick scan of this paper would indicate to me that there’s a lot of figure massaging going.

…but I don’t have any papers coming to that conclusion as specifically related to skiing, and I’m happy that you’ve done an exhaustive search.

It’s the fact that I’ve never seen any study come to a different conclusion than that one that convinces me.

Car helmet?
How about a seat belt? I hated them to start with, feel odd without now. I have a mate who NEVER wears one.

Looking at the data I think a more accurate conclusion would be that there’s a strong indication that there’s an increased risk of neck injury (odds ratios being significant) however, more data needs to be obtained before a firm conclusion can be made (“We could not adjust for all potentially confounding variables in all analyses, as there were simply too few neck injury outcomes, even with 10 years of data. “)

But I guess you’ve got a lot more faith in their conclusions than drawing your own

Dales_rider – Member
Seems like its a “Risk analysis” for even the top skiers/boarders.

And sometimes leading to some interesting decisions. A friend of mine runs a company in Canada providing instructor training courses. He had a magazine come and do a feature, with a couple of pros along to chuck up some roosters for the camera. With £600 ABS packs and no helmets. My friend couldn’t quite get his head around the priorities:

“You’re more likely to hit your head on a tree here than you are to get caught in an avalanche, and if you get caught in an avalanche, you’ll end up in the trees. And you’re more likely to get brain damage or die from impact trauma than from asphyxiation whilst buried. What gives?”

He probably put it more politely, though, because he’s like that.

I’m currently in Andorra and here those that don’t wear helmets are definitely in the minority. And having taken a walloping tumble yesterday (one of those nasty ‘boarding a flat section at speed and hit a bobbly bit’ jobs) and thanked my lucky stars I was wearing a helmet otherwise I’d have been seeing stars. What with that and the kamikaze idiot who took out a poor lass at massive speed, helmets are a necessity if not essential IMHO.

But I guess you’ve got a lot more faith in their conclusions than drawing your own

As I said, not just their conclusions. But I added theirs to the list of other studies that all seem to have come to the same conclusions.

I have to say, it’s an interesting debating tactic.

To make a statement that “wearing a helmet increases the risk of neck injuries”

And for proof of that statement, present a study that concludes the opposite.

And then say you don’t trust the conclusion 🙂

I’m not sure wearing a helmet will make a jot of difference in a direct head collision with a tree or rock whilst hammering it to escape an avalanche, or being caught up in one.

I came very close today to using the helmet, someone not learned in the “Skiing etiquette” nearly got me. Bet If I wasnt wearing a helmet she would of.

In the real world of skiing, for a week or maybe 2 each year, ACL and MCL injuries must be more common than head injury.
How many people who hire skis / own skis know the correct ‘official’ rating for themselves on the bindings , plus how many people actually ‘self test’ the release mechanism?
Probably 1 in 100( ? ) know what to look for , and a perform a self release test.

I dont want a year off the bike with complicated tendon repairs , or brain damage come to that.

WHat Im trying to say is whilst a helmet might save an injury for some people, bindings on the wrong setting or malfunctioning could save injury for more people.

Ah, DIN settings. My son’s giant skis are wound up to 10 with 335mm boots. You’ll find that’s well over the advised range for even the most able 60kg skier. The reason? Less than that and he risks injury due to losing a ski mid-turn and crashing. It’s the old risk assessment thing – the risk of the ski not releasing at 10 (low in a high speed fall) and the risk of losing a ski resulting in a crash at a lower setting (high).

When ski touring I lock the bindings completely (Low-Tech bindings) before steep icy descents where losing a ski would cause a nasty fall.

Having seen people with acl damage they tend to recover better than those with brain damage.

I think we’re doing pretty well for a helmet thread!

– Standard “You’re wrong”, “No, you’re wrong”, questioning/denouncing of others risk analysis.

– “You don’t wear a helmet in the car, do you?” / “You’d never get out of bed” stuff

– Provision of, and calls for back-up from scientific studies (no bonus points for anything “peer-reviewed” though?)

– Comparisons with knee injuries

– “straw man” etc

Don’t we’ve gone quite as far as “I’d never ski with someone without a helmet” or variations on “I wouldn’t stop to help someone with a head injury who hadn’t been wearing a helmet” Which is a good thing!

Ned it’s an amazing thing to see eh?

I’ve only been skiing the once. A week in France i think. I knocked loads of people over and had a great time doing it. I even caused a guy to fall off a cliff (there was no contact, he just bricked it when i went past). Friends reported the netting saved him 😮 . Even tried a fancy skid/stop thing (as seen on ski sunday, when they finish the race) No idea how many people i cleaned on that attempt. Easily a dozen 😀

If you ski when i’m about, you’d best wear a lid.