You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”

Eventually it will need a drink of water though or it will die.

🙂

“Going by recent voting patterns it is rather stupid to assume you will retain the core voters whilst chasing after a different group.”

Thanks for implying I’m stupid but in case you hadn’t noticed, those ‘core’ voters I’m reffering to fled the nest some time ago.

But if New New Labour turn you off, by all means take a look at the Lib Dems or the Greens. How your switch of vote would play out would depend entirely on where you live of course…

Going by recent voting patterns it is rather stupid to assume you will retain the core voters whilst chasing after a different group.

Thanks for implying I’m stupid

How is describing Starmer’s strategy, which you apparently support, as stupid, the same as implying that you are stupid? Only stupid people do stupid things?

Btw your attitude appears to be if you don’t like the direction that Starmer has taken the Labour Party then vote for another party. That is hardly an acceptable attitude on two counts.

Firstly the Labour Party is not Starmer’s personal property, it wasn’t created to satisfy his whims. And secondly he has absolutely no mandate to turn the Labour Party into a new improved Conservative Party – he was elected party leader on a clear radical socialist platform and on the basis of “my pledge to you”.

Which is precisely why he is so busy with his purges as he tries to to silence all dissent within the party with explosions, candidate blocking, and threats against Labour members, instead of treating the Tories as the real enemy.

Well it is only one opinion poll but it is the first one in which the fieldwork was carried out after the news broke that “Labour are the real conservatives”, according to Sir Keir Starmer.

🚨🚨New Voting Intention🚨🚨
Labour lead is sixteen points in latest results from Deltapoll.
Con 29% (+1)
Lab 45% (-2)
Lib Dem 12% (+3)
Other 15% (-1)
Fieldwork: 12th – 15th May 2023
Sample: 1,511 GB adults
(Changes from 5th-9th May 2023) pic.twitter.com/t94YxoAz6b

— Deltapoll (@DeltapollUK) May 15, 2023

The 2% drop in support for Labour suggests that Starmer needs to do more to energise voters than to claim that he is a better conservative than the Tories.

It seems that he might have helped the LibDems more than Labour.

The 2% drop in support for Labour suggests that Starmer needs to do more to energise voters than to claim that he is a better conservative than the Tories.

Fortunately for Starmer the tory right wing are having a conference where they’re doing a passable impression of the Nazis and are even standing in front of a lectern with the phrase ‘National Conservatives’ on it. He really is the luckiest politician alive.

And Starmer is trying to persuade past Conservative voters to jump ship from this Nationalist Conservative bandwagon, which is why he’s doing all this “the Conservative party is no longer made up of conservatives” stuff… pointing out to older voters what the current party of government have become (the “hungry pythons” Major warned about) and trying to persuade them that it’s now safe (from their position) to vote Labour.

Actually the writing was on the wall when Starmeroid kept giving the Tories his support to make a mess of Covid.

Well, I for one am glad that Starmer didn’t go down the path of helping block the public health measures needed. Leaving the government to squirm as its more libertarian back benchers blocked things would probably have resulted in a very high price being paid by many more members of the public. But that’s all for another thread.

“He really is the luckiest politician alive.”

Or he made a good judgment call. Perhaps he (or his staff) were aware that the NatC conference was about to take place and that the Tories were about to goose step towards the far right.

If he made that comment today critics would say he’s just reacting to events. Neutral observers (and voters) might say that he was right.

‘You make your own luck’, as they say…

So the apparent previous STW consensus that British voters easily buy into right-wing racist bollocks has now changed – when did that happen?

Now it turns out that the likes of Braverman and the National Conservatism Conference will actually put people off voting Tory.

I actually agree but when I challenged the claim that voters were motivated by selfish greed and unbridled racism I was told by a Guardian-reading expert on the matter that I needed to pay a visit to the Rose and Crown in Ramsbottom to find out what real voters think.

On this very thread.

Oi Starmer ,I’m here. I’ve never voted labour in my life.
My vote is yours ,just say some nice stuff about Europe and don’t be a ****.
I will no doubt vote lib dem.

rather than hijacking labour

The parliamentary party (and for that matter the national party) has always been an internal struggle between factions, the very first meeting of what became the modern Labour party was this very same argument. There has never been a point in it’s history where that has been settled either way. The claim to “hijack” Labour has been made continually by many, and will do so again in the future. To be a supporter of Labour is to acknowledge that.

there’s probably more chance of regaining the traditional working class Northern vote by becoming more conservative.

There’s always been a element of working class support for; The military, strong patriotism , a limit to immigration, and firm policing. These are all, by any measure; socially conservative, and have been successful campaign points for Labour in the past. These are in contrast to policies that they regard as too elitist, i.e. support for more immigration, the rejection of nationalism, and patriotism, that were promoted and supported  by the previous leadership and it can be argued that Starmer is more popular because he is happy to speak about them, and that is finding support in areas that voted Tory in 2019.

So the reason last October that more than 50% of the electorate were saying they would Labour in a general election, compared to the 25% who said they would vote Tory, is simply because Starmer was so massively popular?

Are we assuming that it had nothing to do with the British cheese-eating patriot Liz Truss?

The greatest area of support for Labour last October were the so-called red wall seats. At one point Labour had a 38% lead over the Tories in the ‘red wall’ seats :

Latest Red Wall Voting Intention (3-4 October 2022)

Labour 61% (+12)
Conservative 23% (-11)
Reform UK 3% (-4)
Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
Green 4% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (–)

Do you think that was because Keir Starmer was seen as massively more conservative and patriotic than Liz Truss?

Labour’s popularity has bugger all to do with Starmer and everything to do a total lack of popular support for Conservative government policies.

Starmer knows that which is why he says so little about what he would do as PM and chooses instead to sit back and watch the Tories implode.

So the reason last October that more than 50% of the electorate were saying they would Labour in a general election, compared to the 25% who said they would vote Tory, is simply because Starmer was so massively popular?

Who said that? Or are you making up things to argue against again?

Well if no one said it I can’t see a problem. I am glad you agree that Labour’s popularity has little to do with Starmer and a lot to do with the Tories’s lack of popularity.

Thanks for the thumbs up 👍

I didn’t say that. Carry on as you were.

Tbh you haven’t said anything really. Just attempted to express disagreement with me without attempting to provide a counterargument, as usual.

Sorry for butting in on your conversation with yourself. Carry on.

Carry on as you were.

Carry on.

Really is that all you can manage?

You come out with some nonsense that I suggested someone said something or other and you can’t back it up with anything so you come out with churlish comments like that?

I simply pointed out that conservativism and patriotism isn’t the massive vote winner which some seem to think, and that actual policies are more important.

Liz Truss’s disastrous 49 day premiership is an excellent example of that, I think most people would agree.

Obviously you don’t because, well you wouldn’t would you?

Edit: And just to be clear – I didn’t claim that anyone had said anything, that is just something which you have made up. Ironically.

You come out with some nonsense that I suggested someone said something or other and you can’t back it up with anything so you come out with churlish comments like that?

What’s the point? Really? You’ll just make something else up. Put words in my mouth for me. I’m not biting, sorry.

“Starmer knows that which is why he says so little about what he would do as PM and chooses instead to sit back and watch the Tories implode.”

If your opposition is imploding then why wouldn’t you sit back and get the good biscuits out?

“candidate blocking, and threats against Labour members, instead of treating the Tories as the real enemy.”

The thing is ernie, Starmer isn’t treating Tory voters, (traditional or recent) as the enemy, maybe that’s what irks you.

What’s the point? Really? You’ll just make something else up. I’m not biting, sorry.

No need to apologise just try to stick to that rather excellent attitude.

There is no need to respond by telling me that you are not going to respond!

The thing is ernie, Starmer isn’t treating Tory voters, (traditional or recent) as the enemy, maybe that’s what irks you.

The hatred expressed on STW towards Tory voters, traditional and recent, is almost palpable. Apparently, according to many on here, Tory voters are all stupid thick racists. I have been regularly castigated for suggesting otherwise.

It often makes having a sensible debate on political threads rather difficult.

People are desperate – they cut Starmer all the slack he needs to do anything he wants, and lose the ability to be critical in the process.

Constant excuses since day one for his pathetic switcheroos, pledge-breaking and general word salad bollocks.

No one knows what he’s really about as he’s happy to go full Tory when it suits and that is somehow a good thing now.

Depressing as hell.

Well, I for one am glad that Starmer didn’t go down the path of helping block the public health measures needed.

Lol no one said block anything.

But at the time he never offered solid criticism of the way things were panning out, or suggested better ways of doing things.

Still, wall paper.

People are desperate – they cut Starmer all the slack he needs to do anything he wants, and lose the ability to be critical in the process.

Quite. Cutting him that slack would require being sufficiently open minded to the point that my brains would fall out.

The hatred expressed on STW towards Tory voters, traditional and recent, is almost palpable. Apparently, according to many on here, Tory voters are all stupid thick racists. I have been regularly castigated for suggesting otherwise.

It often makes having a sensible debate on political threads rather difficult.

Schrödinger’s Centrists.

You’ve got to both hate the Tories until your blood explodes and spend the last seven years castigating every possible Tory quality … or now it’s a good thing that Starmer has inherited some of those same *finer* Tory qualities to be the new sensible right-wing Cameron budget spin-off.

Oh my life.

What happened to selling solid Tory dismantling progressive ideas for your electorate to vote for?

The hatred expressed on STW towards Tory voters, traditional and recent, is almost palpable.

That’s because on here politics is nothing more than a sport. Go to the football thread and you’ll see the exact same sentiments being expressed about how spurs are shit and will never win, Newcastle are evil billionaire-funded devils and Man U the once unbeatable kings who have lost all ambition. The parallels are quite stark.

No one knows what he’s really about as he’s happy to go full Tory when it suits and that is somehow a good thing now.

Polly Toybee appears to think he’s a radical. 😂

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/16/tories-labour-keir-starmer-local-elections-votes

No one knows what he’s really about

This is what I find quite strange. Some people seem to fully accept that Starmer was lying through his teeth when he was desperate to win the Labour leadership election, with his 10 socialist pledges etc, but often the same people seem bizarrely confident that he is now being honest with regards to what he says he would do as prime minister.

No one who thinks it is acceptable to lie simply to win one election is going to think it is quite unacceptable to lie to win another election.

The idea that Starmer would be comfortable lying to members of his own party but not to voters isn’t plausible imo.

No one, and I of course include myself, can be certain what policies Starmer would pursue as prime minister. I very much doubt that he has any commitment to any idealogy, what seems to motivate him most is his apparent commitment to himself.

It baffles me what the people who back Starmer think they are actually backing.

On the plus side the ‘hatred’ towards Tory voters seems to be balanced by a similar sentiment towards the ‘centralists’ 😂

hate the Tories until your blood explodes and spend the last seven years castigating every possible Tory quality … or now it’s a good thing that Starmer has inherited some of those same *finer* Tory qualities

Yeah its strange how the people who express the most intense hatred towards the Tories on here are often also the same people who want the Labour Party to be a bit more like the Tories.

This thread, for quite some time, has been the internet equivalent of those blokes you see in the park drinking white lightning and shouting at buses 😂

Polly Toybee appears to think he’s a radical. 😂

PMSL – she’s delusional.

I will read that and try and keep a straight face.

I will read that and try and keep a straight face.

Don’t bother, here it is below. Radical stuff I’m sure you’ll agree. Surestart centres, colleges, museums and playing fields! Vive la revolution!

“Momentum’s remnants grumble that he offers no more than “New Labour re-runs”, but they should hope he can cut child and pensioner poverty by a million people; revive benefits, Sure Start programmes for tots and further education colleges; and renew local museums and grassroots sport to outdo New Labour’s 13 abundant years from 1997 to 2010. It will be harder this time.”

binners Full Member
This thread, for quite some time, has….blah, blah, blah,

I always knew that despite your self-imposed silence you kept a close eye on this thread binners, which is why I sometimes post something especially for you 😉

Any thoughts on my earlier comment which you have undoubtedly read?

I’m sure that you didn’t miss it but here it is again anyway:

So the apparent previous STW consensus that British voters easily buy into right-wing racist bollocks has now changed – when did that happen?

Now it turns out that the likes of Braverman and the National Conservatism Conference will actually put people off voting Tory.

I actually agree but when I challenged the claim that voters were motivated by selfish greed and unbridled racism I was told by a Guardian-reading expert on the matter that I needed to pay a visit to the Rose and Crown in Ramsbottom to find out what real voters think.

This thread, for quite some time, has been the internet equivalent of those blokes you see in the park drinking white lightning and shouting at buses 😂

Ah I always wondered where you got your political analysis from.

Don’t bother, here it is below. Radical stuff I’m sure you’ll agree. Surestart centres, colleges, museums and playing fields! Vive la revolution

Wow, party like it’s 1997.

Wasn’t sure where best to post this but if its been done apologies.

“We’re always asking politicians to be more honest… and Jacob Rees-Mogg accidentally told the truth.”@maitlis and @jonsopel on the Tory MP’s gerrymandering confession/slip up…

Listen on @GlobalPlayer pic.twitter.com/FlSIjuXTbR

— The News Agents (@TheNewsAgents) May 15, 2023

I wasn’t sure either Fazzini.

MP accuses Starmer of trying to rig elections by letting people vote pic.twitter.com/AmEkuX2vrm

— Rosie Holt (@RosieisaHolt) May 16, 2023

😉

“Camden comrades, North London Leninists, and tofu-eating Trotskyists”?

Binners wrote the script!!