Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 96 total)
  • Single pivot vs the rest
  • Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    From the Orange thread:

    “I suspect the Orange single pivot design is now considered properly old-school and there isn’t much you can do with the way it works”

    Who loves them, who hates them, who can’t tell the difference, who only rides hardtails and feels the need to tell us?

    Pretty much every bike at the WC XC this weekend is a (linkage shock) single pivot, including Spesh and SantaCruz who have/had much interest in telling the world why FSR and VPP are the greatest.

    Are the old adages still true on a modern bike?

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    I can tell the difference under braking, the single pivots I’ve ridden do skip their back wheels around more than the multi-links (Spesh FSR, Giant NRS and Anthem). Not enough to worry too much about riding a single pivot, but you can notice it.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    Pretty much every bike at the WC XC this weekend is a (linkage shock) single pivot

    Nope, some of them had a linkage with a concentric rear axle, and some of them were short link four bar – counter rotating.

    I think as long as the geometry and the shock and the suspension layout are properly designed to work together, then all bike suss designs can be pretty good.

    Premier Icon JonEdwards
    Free Member

    I’ve had (simple) single pivot, horst link, VPP and linkage activated single pivot.

    They all did different things well and different things not so well. I’d be more concerned by geometry than suspension type if I was buying blind without test riding.

    I think these days most manufacturers have also got their heads round custom speccing shock tunes to make the best of their chosen suspension designs for the average rider – I remember when Orange 5’s were the thing, there were a lot of threads about how much better, and how much less trap-doory they were after sending the shock off for a tune, which doesn’t seem to be a “by default” anymore. Single ring also means that designers are also only trying to work with one set of chain tension induced parameters, not 2 or 3.

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    Is a concentric rear axle not just another type of single pivot? if not, what is the definition?

    Premier Icon continuity
    Free Member

    My issue isn’t with single pivots (I have an evil), it’s with orange full suspension bikes (and, in general, the quasi xenophobic ‘it was built in Britain therefore it’s better’) – where they spend their money, I do not know. Having to put £800 of ohlins or cane creek on a bike for it to perform tolerably is not a credit to it.

    Premier Icon argee
    Full Member

    It’s all in the patent these days, Orange are pretty much a true Single Pivot (SP), it has benefits, it has negatives, concentric rear axles are pretty much that, a pivot concentrically at the rear axle to assist in improving braking performance on a SP.

    I’ve said it a few times, but rear shocks and the way they are tuneable and can be dialled in for the frame has meant designs that weren’t quite good enough a decade or more ago are now kind of working, multi link SP’s are coming in a lot more now, as they can dial in the progressiveness of the frame and put a shock on to suit, it’s all pretty good to be fair and the old snobbery of SP vs 4-bar vs VPP vs DW vs etc isn’t really that viable any more.

    Premier Icon Rickos
    Free Member

    I prefer single pivot (linkage driven or otherwise). Just seems more predictable feeling.

    Which Orange thread? I can’t find it.

    Premier Icon nickjb
    Free Member

    Is a concentric rear axle not just another type of single pivot?

    Yes but the brake is mounted on the linkage, not the chainstay, like a classic single pivot (eg Orange). Whether that makes any difference, I don’t know, but it is in the subset of linkage driven single pivots

    Premier Icon oldnick
    Full Member

    If the rear axle rotates around only one pivot on the frame the axle path is that of a single pivot Shirley?
    Seat stays on a concentric rear axle pivot are just a very long shock linkage with a brake bolted to it to revolutionise the braking experience.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    Is a concentric rear axle not just another type of single pivot?

    Yeah, pretty much, just being nerdish

    Premier Icon Rickos
    Free Member

    Thanks

    Premier Icon weeksy
    Full Member

    can someone draw pretty pictures, i have no idea what the differences are.

    Premier Icon DrP
    Full Member

    i’d say concentric rear axle IS a single pivot..

    If you removed everything but the chain stay, it would still ‘swing’.

    Same with a linkage driven single pivot (like the OLD commencal metas).

    My stumpjumper ISN’T single pivot cos if you just had the chain stay, there’d be no wheel attached to it (FSR/horst whatever…)…

    I GUESS the NEW stumpjumper IS a single pivot, as long as the flex in the stay is in the seat stay, and nil in the chain stay?

    DrP

    Premier Icon muggomagic
    Full Member

    weeksy
    Full Member
    can someone draw pretty pictures, i have no idea what the differences are.

    How about pictures with added bonus cat pictures?

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/introducing-behind-the-numbers-a-new-suspension-analysis-series.html

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tags/behind-the-numbers/

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    can someone draw pretty pictures, i have no idea what the differences are.

    The internet is full of articles explaining the theories behind different designs.

    https://www.bikebros.ca/blogs/spoke-words/suspension-designs-explained/

    Premier Icon sharkattack
    Free Member

    I’ve never had a bike with a concentric rear axle. Is it the seatstay or the chainstay that holds the hub, or both? I’m just wondering if you lock the rear brake does it stop the rear wheel rotating on the axle during compression like an Orange style solid swingarm?

    Or does the chainstay swing like an arm while the seatstay/brake caliper counter rotates?

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Full Member

    I think I’ve owned all the main designs at some point:

    Single Pivot (SC Superlight and Heckler)
    VPP (Blur LT)
    DW Link (Five Spot)
    Faux Bar / Linkage Single pivot (On One Codeine)
    Horst Link (Stumpy FSR and Whyte S150)

    Conclusions? I probably spend too much money on bikes. Also comparing bikes from different eras is probably pretty pointless.

    I think the best suspension design out of them all was the DW Link, it just had no vices. Brake performance like a Horst Link, pedalled like a VPP.

    But the best performing bike is unsurprisingly the newest, the Whyte. Good suspension plus modern geometry.

    Premier Icon greyspoke
    Free Member

    Which of the chainstay and seatstay have the axle fixed to them is not relevant to how the suspension behaves. How the seatstay rotates depends on how its top link is arranged. If it is attached to a horizontal (ish) rocker it won’t rotate much until you get deep into the travel. If it is attached to a drop link type of thing it will be the opposite of that.

    A Horst pivot close to the axle will behave in the same way. ETA this has been the recent trend with Horst links.

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Full Member

    All I know is that when I bought my first non single pivot bike (anthem) I was worried that the lock out was not in easy reach.
    Never needed to use it.
    My Marin’s were always getting locked out.

    Premier Icon Simon
    Full Member

    Does anyone else other than Orange currently make a simple (non-linkage) single pivot frame?

    Premier Icon honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Some of the steel ones – Starling are single pivot, aren’t they?

    Premier Icon ayjaydoubleyou
    Free Member

    Ive never heard of these:
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-tor-zenith-is-a-fuss-free-australian-made-steel-trail-bike.html

    PP Shan no5
    shan

    This potential deathtrap (remember when it all kicked off on Vital)
    mullet

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    A Horst pivot close to the axle will behave in the same way.

    I thought the Specialized patent was about the placement of the pivot, so putting it close to the axle won’t technically be a Horst pivot, surely?

    Premier Icon greyspoke
    Free Member

    You’re right thols2! So what does one call a design with the pivot anywhere?

    Mind you, the patent only requires the pivot to be “below” the axle, so it could still be very close.

    Premier Icon enigmas
    Free Member

    Demoed several oranges over the years and i’ve never got on with the suspension, the feedback through the pedals and tendency to lock up over braking is noticeable. My old linkage driven single pivot nukeproof mega also had the same tendencies but not quite as bad.

    My favourite linkage of any bike i’ve owned was my banshee spitfire – that pedalled well and stayed constantly composed. I think it’s very similar to a DW link in design.

    My current bike, a Whyte S-150, is okay. It uses a horst link that is really plush but bobs a lot and lacked support before a megneg upgrade. After that it runs much better.

    Premier Icon DrP
    Full Member

    What’s interesting is how some suspension designs, even though they are touted as the best thing eva, have just dissapeared..

    This Marin, with the R3act suspension seemed to tick ALL the boxes…

    But…my theory is that it’s died a death, and Marin now uses a traditional faux bar design, purely cos it’s PIG UGLY……
    Regardless of how it rides, how it sells is also an important feature..

    It’s quite interesting – i spent my lunch looking up this frame/system.
    Matt Jones had a video from 2019 spouting it’s wonders… and tehn ALL subsequent Marins scrapped it!

    DrP

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    the quasi xenophobic ‘it was built in Britain therefore it’s better’

    I don’t think many people really believe that – for me, it would be about supporting what is in bike terms a local business.

    Premier Icon fathomer
    Full Member

    I’ve literally just bought my first proper single pivot bike with a Cane Creek DBcoil IL, tuned by J-Tech. I really, really like it in the 100k I’ve ridden it so far, climbs well, descends well and with it being the first ever coil shock I’ve owned, it’s lovely and plush but seems to have no less ‘pop’ than the bike it replaced. This could all be new bike rose tinted glasses though 🙂

    The other 3 bikes I’ve owned had VPP, Horst Link and linkage driven single pivot and I don’t think I’ve noticed any brake jack or whatever it’s called.

    Hopefully a picture:

    Premier Icon thols2
    Free Member

    it would be about supporting what is in bike terms a local business.

    The basic problem with this is that you are saying that there are better products available for the same money, so you will reward a local company that makes an inferior product. Wouldn’t it make more sense to buy the best bike and donate some money to charity if you want to help locals? You are basically treating local companies as charity cases that can’t get by unless you just donate money to them.

    Premier Icon greyspoke
    Free Member

    Ah yes that Marin, I was intrigued by that. Going back a bit to their Jon Whyte designed days. It makes sense, one system for getting the axle path where you want it and a separate shock driver linkage to get the spring rate curve right. As the DW6 system on the Atherton bikes has.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    “ This Marin, with the R3act suspension seemed to tick ALL the boxes…”

    According to the marketing it did. According to analysis in linkage software it really didn’t:

    https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2018/04/marin-wolf-ridge-29-2018.html?m=1

    (Translation for non-geeks – pedals very efficiently at the expense of decent suspension action deeper into the travel).

    There’s nothing wrong with a well executed single pivot design. Incidentally, the recent high pivot bikes like the Commencal WC DH bike, or the Forbidden or Deviate trail bikes, have massive brake squat, far “worse” than any Orange.

    Premier Icon Olly
    Free Member

    I had two giants before mine. The suspension on the reign was sublime once i had had the shock PUSHed, supportive, bottomless, free of bob and brake squat and jack. I didnt see how it could have been improved.

    I also had to change 10 bearings every year or so, and a bush every 6 months.

    Got an Orange now which rides great, squats a bit, bobs a bit, but rarely need maintaining.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Full Member

    My sweet Lord that’s a pretty bike. Love the colour.

    I’ve only ever owned two full suspension bikes. A Trek Fuel Ex9 from 2014 and a second gen Cotic Flare. The Flare was a lot more fun to ride for me. The Trek was like an old persons comfy chair.

    Premier Icon fathomer
    Full Member

    @funkmasterp thanks, considering the painting was a bit of a rush job, it worked out amazingly!

    Premier Icon greyspoke
    Free Member

    There’s nothing wrong with a well executed single pivot design. Incidentally, the recent high pivot bikes like the Commencal WC DH bike, or the Forbidden or Deviate trail bikes, have massive brake squat, far “worse” than any Orange.

    Whether that is a bad thing or not depends on whether you think brake-induced squat is the cause of the phenomenon commonly known as “brake jack”.

    Premier Icon tall_martin
    Full Member

    My DH bike got nicked in the Alps one year so I had a succession of hire bikes over the rest of the week.

    The think I noticed more than the suspension design was a) did it fit b) had the fork been serviced recently.

    I went through:
    my Horst link canyon. Ace. It fitted!

    DW pivot. Fork was the same as mine, but it felt like it hadn’t been service in ages.

    Morwood single pivot linkage, shock was too soft

    Polygon. Dual floating link. The bike was too small.

    Santa cruz V10. In xxl it felt amazing. Mostly because it fitted better than the rest.

    The suspension design really didn’t make much difference to me.

    I had an orange segment, I never noticed any brake jack, significant bobbing or getting less plush under braking. It only had 110mm of travel so maybe that’s why I never noticed any of those things.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    “ Whether that is a bad thing or not depends on whether you think brake-induced squat is the cause of the phenomenon commonly known as “brake jack”.”

    I think “brake jack” refers to the stiffening of rear suspension under braking, which is caused by the braking torque acting on the suspension and is almost always a squatting not jacking (rising) force. The front suspension dives under braking (telescopic forks have no anti-dive) so riders may assume that there is brake jack when actually they’re feeling brake squat and stiffening at the rear but brake dive at the front.

    From the limited number of full-sus bikes I’ve ridden, I feel that very low brake squat as on typical four bar bikes (Horst link style) isn’t ideal – I’d rather the bike maintain its angles better rather than stay supple but steepen up under braking.

    Counter-rotating four bar bikes (like Birds) have more brake squat, as do most short link designs. Single pivots have more all the way through the travel but how many of us are hauling on our brakes when bottoming out?

    Premier Icon rickon
    Full Member

    A great example of where a linkage-driven single pivot has been designed incredibly well is Evil’s DELTA. Also Dave Weagle.

    It has so much progression built in, it works best with a coil shock. And for me, with as little rebound and compression framing as possible.

    Its almost like the shock doesn’t really matter, because the engineering is so good.

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