TLDR, what takes presidence national speed limit or signed limit?

This applies to the A556 outside Northwich, Cheshire and the A55 around the Colwyn Bay/Conwy area.

A556 is a single carriageway but with 2 lanes in either direction. It’s got signs showing 60, which is the car national limit, but I’m driving a van which would be 50 without the signs. Similarly the A55 is a dual carriageway but has signs for 70 mph.

To my mind this means my van speed limit, and any other vehicle with a lower national limit, (trucks, car and trailer for example) can travel at the signed limit which is higher than normal.

For clarification, I’ve not been busted for making progress, just interested.

The van limit takes precedence. I don’t have a reference for that but I’m confident; when I did training to drive a school mini-bus it was very clear that the vehicle limit takes priority.

I don’t know why the A556 has 60 signs, it may be because people wrongly think it’s a dual carriageway because it has two lanes each way. The 70 signs on the A55 are because that section has street lights, so would be 30 without the signs, and they are just there to put it back to normal for a dual carriageway.

As Greybeard says, vehicle speed limit takes precedence over signed limits.

I looked into this after I was pulled by The Rozzers, actually one particular Rozzer, over 20 times in a 12 month period for either speeding or not keeping up with the flow of the traffic on a stretch of road that I used for commuting.

The road is dual carriageway, 2 lanes each way with a central reservation AND street lights. No speed limit signs, centre of town. But there is a “dual carriageway” sign indicating that it’s 2 (actually 4 now) lanes from a light controlled junction.

The Rozzer in question was using it as an excuse to pull me over hoping to find something to ticket me for because I had a series of modified Golf GTI’s. Every time it was a producer, never a ticket.

Sorry for the digress, yes, vehicule limit takes precedence.

Cheers gents.

I don’t know why the A556 has 60 signs, it may be because people wrongly think it’s a dual carriageway because it has two lanes each way.

I think this is the case, people think the number of lanes is what makes a dual carriageway rather than the central reservation.

Is the sign showing 60, or is it showing the diagonal black stripe National Speed Limit? NSL applies different limits to different vehicles on different road types; a number on a pole is the blanket speed limit for everyone.

Surely the only time that vans and lorries have any different speed restrictions is within NSL zones.
Numerical speed limits have no variation according to vehicle classification.

I looked into this after I was pulled by The Rozzers, actually one particular Rozzer, over 20 times in a 12 month period for either speeding or not keeping up with the flow of the traffic on a stretch of road that I used for commuting.

Did you report them for harrassment?

Sorry for the digress, yes, vehicule limit takes precedence.

No it doesn’t, unless it’s NSL. If it did, well, in any case it wouldn’t have affected you either way in a Golf no matter how modified it might have been.

Surely the only time that vans and lorries have any different speed restrictions is within NSL zones.
Numerical speed limits have no variation according to vehicle classification.

Precisely.

Is the sign showing 60, or is it showing the diagonal black stripe National Speed Limit?

Sign shows 60.

Heh, seems like I started somthing here. I’ll have to look at the highway code myself.

There isn’t one blanket national speed limit for everything. Each vehicle type has it’s own set of national speed limits. Says so in the highway code.

That is the maximum that vehicle can go on a particular type of road (single, dual, mway) – it is irrelevant if the number in the circle is higher.

Rule 124

You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle (see the speed limits table).

I reckon this means national speed limit trumps the signs because the table sets the limit.

If you’re in a DPD van it’s 80

We were stopped on that road, with those signs, for doing 60 in a van.

@Cougar

Sorry, to clarify I meant vehicle limits set precedence in a NSL area. The NSL is variable according to the vehicle.

TBH I don’t think I’ve seen a 60 or 70 limit, only 20, 30, 40, 50, NSL.

Maybe I need to work on my perception skills.

The Golf saga dates back to the late 90s, when in fairness, I drove everywhere as fast as possible, except in 30 limits where I religiously stuck to the limits. How I never ended up dead in a ditch, or upside down in a field I’ll never know.

Not big or clever. I was a ****.

I noticed this on a lot of the motorways around Glasgow the other weekend, with a number of 70 signs. I wondered if it was to allow lorries to go faster than 60. Looking at this page it seems to indicate vehicle and road limit, but not exactly crystal clear

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Edit: seems we’ve covered that one already https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/scottish-motorway-speed-limits/

The speed limit for the vehicle class always applies, even if there are signs showing a higher limit.

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, s86

Commercial vehicles have different speed limits, question is what is ‘a van’? are small vans considered cars?

@cougar

Is the sign showing 60, or is it showing the diagonal black stripe National Speed Limit? NSL applies different limits to different vehicles on different road types; a number on a pole is the blanket speed limit for everyone.

you are wrong.

e.g. towing a trailer – you can’t exceed 60 on the m/way even if signposted as a 70.
HGV on single c/way in Scotland – can’t exceed 40 even if signposted as a 50.

@espressoal

Commercial vehicles have different speed limits, question is what is ‘a van’? are small vans considered cars?

The test is not if it is a “commercial vehicle” but rather if it is a good vehicle (van) or car derived van (e.g. an “Astra van” is a an astra without back windows and is a car derived van, a transit is a goods vehicle).

HGV on single c/way in Scotland – can’t exceed 40 even if signposted as a 50.

Unless they’re on the A9. “Trial Speed Limit for Lorries 50mph” Or something similar.

TBH I don’t think I’ve seen a 60 or 70 limit, only 20, 30, 40, 50, NSL.

They’re rare – 70 certainly – but they do exist. More common outside of England perhaps? IIRC I think the road across the top of North Wales might be a (70) in places. Isn’t there one on the way into London also?

you are wrong.

e.g. towing a trailer – you can’t exceed 60 on the m/way even if signposted as a 70.

Are motorways ever signposted as a (70) rather than NSL?

Dual carriageways though, good point. So we have:

1) NSL: the speed limit depends on type of road (single / dual CW) and type of vehicle.

2) Number on a pole: speed limit is fixed for all vehicles but you still also have an absolute maximum for your vehicle class which may be lower than what’s on the sign.

Does that sound right? I’m generally pretty on point with THC but I’ve never towed anything so it’s not something I’ve ever had cause to learn.

HGV on single c/way in Scotland – can’t exceed 40 even if signposted as a 50.

I often wonder if this one is enforced. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a commercial HGV sticking to the 40 limit on larger A roads.

Are motorways ever signposted as a (70) rather than NSL?

Yes – https://www.google.com/maps/@55.8329459,-4.1035128,3a,75y,283.62h,91.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqpGgbD-IBMVjtwrpzQNE6Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (just one example that I know well enough to find quickly – its not uncommon up here – not sure if that’s a Scottish trend but certainly had been like that since the 90’s at least).

and here’s one joining a dual c/way which is not a m/way:
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.8997583,-3.2304047,3a,75y,77.84h,89.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDZ8qXn8qlrXGO6vsB8PTTQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Dual carriageways though, good point. So we have:

1) NSL: the speed limit depends on type of road (single / dual CW) and type of vehicle.

2) Number on a pole: speed limit is fixed for all vehicles but you still also have an absolute maximum for your vehicle class which may be lower than what’s on the sign.

Does that sound right? I’m generally pretty on point with THC but I’ve never towed anything so it’s not something I’ve ever had cause to learn.

Yes. Similar issues for vans, trucks, busses etc with their own limits.

The test is not if it is a “commercial vehicle” but rather if it is a good vehicle (van) or car derived van (e.g. an “Astra van” is a an astra without back windows and is a car derived van, a transit is a goods vehicle).

it’s not even as simple as that though, my VW T4 was originally registered as a “diesel car” and so although the exact same vehicle could be “goods vehicle” mine isn’t, and gets the normal car limits as a result.

Does that sound right?

Pretty much. A pedantic point – there are four road classes for NSL; Built-up, SC, DC, Mway.

See https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

the road across the top of North Wales might be a (70) in places

As mentioned above, the A55 has street lights on one stretch, which would make it ‘built-up’ and 30, so it’s signed 70 to put it back to DC rules.

I think there’s something saying that Mways can have street lights without affecting the limit.

I often wonder if this one is enforced. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a commercial HGV sticking to the 40 limit on larger A roads.

As phill5556 rightly points out to confuse matters more there’s a special limit for the A9 but otherwise yes it may be enforced, and I’ve certainly been stuck behind them on the A82 to know that some do stick to 40.

How frequently enforced? Well I suppose the majority of speed enforcement is now in four camps:
– fixed cameras measuring speed at one specific point. Most (all?) have no way to know the type of vehicle and so are triggered only on the road limit not the vehicle limit.
– average cameras – I think these can (in theory) know the vehicle type but IME they are generally used in areas of single c/way except roadworks etc.
– mobile camera – they’ll be places where they are likely to catch lots of speeders. It the road limit is 60 but the typical car gets stuck behind trucks doing 50 (who should be doing 40) you don’t get many hits.
– traffic cops in cars – generally (a) seem to be parked at side of major roads/intersections so can zoom off to something more interesting easily and/or (b) focus on problem areas – e.g. people doing 40 through a village or (c) deal with people who basically were taking the piss by driving at silly speeds.

Add in the 10%+2 tolerance and probably not too many HGVs getting tickets for >40 in a Scottish NSL single c/way.

Add in the 10%+2 tolerance and probably not too many HGVs getting tickets for >40 in a Scottish NSL single c/way.

I had a very irate truck driver on the A9 a couple of weeks ago. Single carriageway south of Aviemore. I’m in a van which has to observe a 50mph limit the same as the truck. Cruise control on doing an indicated 54mph on the speedo which my GPS shows as 50.

In my mirrors appears a huge lorry which attaches itself to less than a foot off my rear bumper with the driver gesticulating madly at me for having the temerity to observe the speed limit. Either he knows something i dont about those average speed cameras or my speed and GPS are miles off

If you’re in a DPD van it’s 80

Only if you’re not in a rush surely?

The A55 (and other roads around the Country) are classed as ‘Special Roads’.
Wiki tells the story:
Two sections between (Junction 23) Llanddulas to (Junction 17) Conwy are signed as a 70 mph (110 km/h) speed limit because they are actually special roads. This is because these sections were built under legislation for building motorways but they were never declared as motorways.[4][5] Legally it means these two stretches of the A55 are neither part of the national UK motorway network nor trunk roads. As such, the national speed limit does not apply so 70 mph (110 km/h) signs (the maximum speed permitted on UK roads) are used instead. Unlike other sections of the A55 that have National Speed Limit (NSL) signage and are accessible to all motor vehicles, motorway restrictions are enforced on these two stretches of road (therefore no pedestrians, learner drivers, etc).

Thanks @alanl, I didn’t imagine the reason for the A55 being signed the way it is would be so complex!

In my mirrors appears a huge lorry which attaches itself to less than a foot off my rear bumper with the driver gesticulating madly at me for having the temerity to observe the speed limit. Either he knows something i dont about those average speed cameras or my speed and GPS are miles off

Heavy trucks will gain speed down hill and they try not to lose that momentum when it starts going uphill again. He was likely averaging 50mph, just varying quite a bit on either side of that.

Thanks @alanl

+1

I didn’t know that … and I’ve seen the big green signs prohibition what is effectively non-motorway traffic, and never thought about why.

Commercial vehicles have different speed limits, question is what is ‘a van’? are small vans considered cars?

There’s no question

It’s black and white.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles

Thanks @alanl, I didn’t imagine the reason for the A55 being signed the way it is would be so complex!

I wonder what the reasoning was behind not declaring them as motorways.

It’s black and white.

Dual purpose vehicles is an interesting one. As I understand it, a Berlingo equipped to carry passengers for example, would be considered a DPV and subject to the same limits as cars. A Berlingo van however, despite being the same vehicle, slips into the van category?

A Berlingo van however, despite being the same vehicle, slips into the van category?

Well a van isn’t dual purpose is it. It has one purpose to be a van

The Berlingo car ….has seats. Iirc it also has a lower pay load due to softer springs.

Looks similar isnt *being the same* vehicle

MK1 and MK1 facelift Berlingo vans in the 600kg payload variant actually came under the cdv rules and could go at car speeds the 800kg variant could not.

Berlingo car isn’t a DPV/tax dodge though it’s an MPV

If it’s a car, then surely the van is a car-derived-van?

I’m not arguing with the fact BTW. I can see why they might be classed different, carrying different loads, etc… And the fact we need to categorise these things.

But you put bigger springs in your passenger Berlingo. Rip out the seats. At what point does it become a van?

If you convert it, the classification changes.

Heavy trucks will gain speed down hill and they try not to lose that momentum when it starts going uphill again. He was likely averaging 50mph, just varying quite a bit on either side of that.

This and to add it does not make their behaviour legal, safe or acceptable so they can do one on the bullying.

While the enforcement is on an average of 50 the speed limit isn’t an average of 50 it’s 50 and it needs beating (not literally) into a fair few HGV drivers and their transport managers with a piece of 4*2 that their deadline or convenience does not trump the law or the safety of others.

If it’s a car, then surely the van is a car-derived-van?

Apparently the the Berlingo is the other way round, the van was first, so the car would be a van-derived-car (if such a thing existed) and the van is just a van. If you look here there’s a quote from Citroen to that effect.

Although it’s possible that a Berlingo with seats could qualify as a Dual Purpose Vehicle, and thus be subject to the same speed limits as cars.