Sandy Irvine found on Everest

What I find more interesting is that Sandy Irvine was only 22 .. those rich kids had a new world of adventures and opportunities back then

What makes you think its any different now? The big difference is the new gen of teenagers doing it is more likely to monetize it with a series of Yourtube vids…

What makes you think its any different now?

Because there are less unexplored places in the world and less mountains to be conquered.

100 years ago, if you were rich (or mummy and daddy were) then deepest darkest Africa, South America etc were your play grounds.

Nowadays the world is smaller. Can you give a modern example of someone aged 22 having a similar opportunity as Sandy Irvine did?

His surprise at their slow progress, comments on how little daylight they had to summit and description of them climbing the step quickly suggests the first step but obviously there’s room for error in all that.

Gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with this today. Just to correct the above, Odell thought they were at the Second Step although I  don’t think they used that terminology back then. I guess that’s the reason for all the interest in the Second Step. Some modern commentators seem to think they found a different route but that would cast doubt on Odell’s observations. However, there is some doubt about whether it was the Second Step Odell saw them at as it’s unlikely they could have climbed it as quickly as he said they did.

Edit: Also, apparently there is some evidence that Mallory climbed with two pairs of goggles so the pair in his pocket may have been a spare pair and the other pair lost in the fall.

It is of course possible that neither Mallory/Irvine not Hillary/Norway were first. First recorded, but not necessarily first.

When Yoshitaro Shibasaki and his team completed their 1907 (only 17 years before the Irvine/Mallory expedition) ascent of Mount Tsurugi — thought to be the final unclimbed mountain remaining in the Japanese archipelago — they found an ancient sword at the summit that was later determined to have been left there more than 1000 years earlier. Just because we don’t know about it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Irvine/Mallory’s clothing and equipment has been found to be fine, tested by experienced climbers in (IIRC) 2007 and people have done it without oxygen, so it would have been possible in the 19th, 18th, 17th centuries. Humans being humans can we really expect hundreds of generations to have lived near it and not one person thought ‘I wonder if I can get to the top of that?’ and been of sufficient ability to pull it off? They wouldn’t have known it was the highest of course but people are curious and like a challenge, it’s not just a twentieth century thing, it’s just that we have more tech to enable us nowadays.

Another example, it is likely that James Parrot was the first to run a four minute mile, in 1770. He did it for a (very substantial) bet, which he won, so we can be pretty sure that the distance and time will have been measured properly. Others in the late 1700s and early 1800s also did it. And these were the guys measuring and timing it, who knows who did it chasing an antelope or fleeing a lion.

There is even debate about who was the first man in space. Yuri Gargarin was certainly the first to return successfully, but there are rumours that at least one of the earlier soviet test flights was manned but that the pilot did not survive. However, it’s unlikely to have been done by anyone back in the eighteenth century, although some interpretations of the book of Enoch read like a UFO abduction.

Granted, in that respect, to discover the unexplored, to forge new ground and do things no-ones done before in history.. is more limited now, and probably to be found in technology or some douche wanting to go to mars. That’s the thing so fascinating about those early 20’s expeditions and the whole mapping exploits that built up to them, the sense of uncovering the terrain as they unpicked their way to the goal. The early photographic archives from the RGS of those exhibitions recently enhanced from the original plates is well worth a look, as they convey that sense of first laying eyes on that region, pristine and much higher snow levels too. Young climbers from around the globe though, have increasingly been paying sherpa teams to haul their asses up the motorway route for the kudos and notoriety, a worrying trend from the last decade. Check out Ryan Mitchells footage from this year, go-pro’ed the whole thing, stunning footage form higher on the mountain, self-funded, 19. But yeah, a palimpsest of the original venture.

The rabbit hole is deep surrounding Odells sighting. 100 years worth of conjecture, and 25 years worth of extensive theorising since Mallory’s discovery. One could spend many 100’s of hours researching the combinations of possibilities and come out none the wiser, am aware of all of it, its way way more complicated than that. For anyone interested Michael Tracy on youtube is the go to modern researcher who has most bases covered in his excellent series of in-depth analysis, and the format suits the complication well- opposing views also available. Its well worth a look and less likely to screw up your feed than re-watching a video of ‘tribal leaders first experiencing cheesecake’.

For what its worth I’m a long-standing 3rd step guy….

Humans being humans can we really expect hundreds of generations to have lived near it and not one person thought ‘I wonder if I can get to the top of that?’ and been of sufficient ability to pull it off? G

The example you offer is a very different kettle of fish from Everest. Native people in mountainous regions mostly seem to stay away from the high tops either because life was tough enough in the valleys or because they were the abode of gods or spirits. As for someone being of sufficient ability, how would they get to that level of ability? The first solo ascent without oxygen was the pinnacle of a long career for one of the, if not the finest mountaineer ever, hard to see some local lad rocking up and doing the same! So really, not a creditable hypothesis.

What I find more interesting is that Sandy Irvine was only 22 ..

I thought it was odd he was wearing socks with a name tape sewn into them…now it occurs to me that he might actually have been wearing socks from boarding school…

…. now look at the tags on Mallory’s clothing found in 99. Same style tags. Though he did teach at Charterhouse previously… Mallory’s shirt bought from a shop on Godalming High street. Local guy…

those rich kids had a new world of adventures and opportunities back then

I reckon its easier nowadays. Just look at the records for getting various places whilst having a competent team who are being paid to get you there. Admittedly less chance of anything really ground breaking but you can pay to have the experts babysit you.

He was selected for the expedition and, probably (no one knows quite why Mallory chose him but its a good guess), the final ascent because he was a extremely talented technician and engineer who made a series of improvements to the kit  including the oxygen system during the expedition.

It would be great it they do find that camera and manage to develop it. Without that I will keep switching sides depending on which account I read last. Ultimately though I do think it only counts as an ascent if you return to talk about it.

In terms of could someone have done it earlier. I do doubt whether any locals would have been mad enough to and I suspect if they had there would have been legends about them doing so.

Also, apparently there is some evidence that Mallory climbed with two pairs of goggles so the pair in his pocket may have been a spare pair and the other pair lost in the fall

Probably wore his iridiums for the summit photos

When Yoshitaro Shibasaki and his team completed their 1907 (only 17 years before the Irvine/Mallory expedition) ascent of Mount Tsurugi — thought to be the final unclimbed mountain remaining in the Japanese archipelago — they found an ancient sword at the summit that was later determined to have been left there more than 1000 years earlier

Bit of a difference between a 10,000’ mountain & Everest.

AndrewH – you are being intentionally silly yes?

If not – best you put down the gin/whiskey/crack or speak to your GP!!

I reckon its easier nowadays.

To climb/walk Everest – sure, I agree.

But not for the type of opportunity for an adventure into the unknown as the then 22 yr old Sandy Irvine.

As endoverend writes – those only now potentially exist in future space exploration. And you can guarantee they would not consider a 22 yr old straight from a posh university to jointly lead it.

*Sandy Irvine did however appear to be an extraordinary person.

Bit of a difference between a 10,000’ mountain & Everest.

Yeah, well, I’ve cycled to the top of a 10,000’ mountain! I was writing postcards at the top, saying “Dear oxygen, having a wonderful time, wish you were here”, but still…

10,250’, IIRC.

Bagging 14er’s in the States is like bagging Monroes here, they’re a gentle stroll, apart from how thin the atmosphere is, which is what makes them dangerous to the inexperienced, then you add the danger of sudden weather changes.

One could spend many 100’s of hours researching the combinations of possibilities and come out none the wiser,

After spending a day in the rabbit hole my conclusion is that although there is a theoretical possibility of them having summited there is no evidence that moves it out of that category. All the likes of Michael Tracey and Jake Norton are doing is presenting possible scenarios all of which are plausible as are many others because of the scant evidence to narrow it down.

The comments section of the vids is an interesting lesson in people’s inability to assess evidence, lots of comments along the lines of ‘I’m 100% certain they reached the top’.

As someone mentioned up above, it’s ok not to know and it’s ok to simply withhold judgement in light of insufficient evidence.

After spending a day in the rabbit hole my conclusion is that although there is a theoretical possibility of them having summited there is no evidence that moves it out of that category

Exactly. To be brutally frank, 5 minutes should have been enough to come to that conclusion.

it’s ok not to know and it’s ok to simply withhold judgement in light of insufficient evidence.

Anyone would think that you’re new on here

😉

To be brutally frank, 5 minutes should have been enough to come to that conclusion.

I think that if you come to that conclusion in 5 mins you’ve probably gone in with a preconceived idea and not bothered listening to other views.

Although I don’t agree with their conclusions I think some of the commentators make interesting points. The two I mentioned have spent lots of time on Everest and have some interesting insights as a result.

The sock could have been from his time at Oxford. He would have had a ‘scout’ who would clean his room and do his laundry alongside others on his stair, hence the tag.

He was on an expedition with a load of porters and support staff.

I doubt he did his own laundry at base camp.

Of course he would have his name in his gear.

When I worked on cruise ships, we had name tags on stuff we sent to the main laundry and didn’t wash ourselves.

It’s quite normal in high altitude mountaineering to have your name scrawled over all your stuff in large felt tip. Having his name sewn into his socks might have been the 1920s version of making sure he could locate his socks. 😉

Off to see Kenton Kool tomorrow evening. Hopefully we will get some insight from him. I’ll ask if his mum sews name tags in his socks.

When I worked on geotechnical rope access sites I had my name on stuff. My name is still visible on my Dunlop purofort wellies 13 years on which is a testament to a sharpies ability to withstand the rigours geotech work.

I bet his clothes were named for similar reasons

Lets say that the nametag wasn’t there, and a ‘hobnail’ boot was found with a foot in it in the same location on Everest – how many individuals do you think it could be attributed to.. a few dozen? ten? one? roughly, ballpark?

There is an answer to this… but it has a caveat.