I reckon it might not be him my son comes home from PE lessons with other people socks all the time. I reckon it was similar at Everest base camp.
I reckon it might not be him my son comes home from PE lessons with other people socks all the time. I reckon it was similar at Everest base camp.
Mine too, though mercifully not (yet) with other people's limbs still in them!
Its him. Only a handful of people traversed far enough horizontally to be on a fall line above the Rongbuk in the era of hobnail boots.
One step at a time, let's see what the dna tests come up with.
@murdooverthehill - surely as its only 1 foot its one hop at a time?
Dna tests just a formality. We forget from a modern perspective just how few climbers ventured into that area pre-war, in their layers of wool, tweed jackets and hobnail boots. Most of them made it back to C6. There's only a few possibilities for bodies with that clothing type, who they were, and where they are is well documented. The sherpa deaths in the 20's were on the other side of the North Col, it sure isn't Maurice Wilson (no stiletto's) and there's no reason for any climbers subsequently to be wearing SI's socks from a few decades prior anyway...
The bigger question is will they find the rest of him, and what's in his pockets... that will be one of the finds of the century.
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I always thought they must have made it anyway.
can't see it being someone else with his sock. no one else died on a summit attempt around the same time.
Did that poor lad take a fall so hard that it ripped his leg off?
Is another explanation?
It’ll probably just be string, or nothing.
... or summit rocks.
I always thought they must have made it anyway.
Me too.
I think they put everything into reaching the summit, only to be utterly spent physically and cognitively on a treacherous descent...
.... as well as hypoxic, having long since run out of O's. All of the other climbers in the 20's and 30's who turned around at or around the Norton couloir made it back to C6 without too much difficulty (coughing up your larynx aside). Mallory's snow goggles being in his pocket one of the strongest indicators that they descended after dark... and if they spent that much time above 8000 it's not likely they were just hanging around having a cup of tea admiring the view... there not being any major difficulties beyond the 3rd step, other than being the first to ever have been there.
Agree, the snow goggles is a big clue. I reckon they just stayed to long in the summit.
The vast majority of deaths on 8,000m peaks, particularly on Everest is on the descent - fatigue, oxygen debt, pulmonary and cerebral oedema. Looking forward to Jimmy Chin’s typically excellent film on this subject.
Looking forward to waves of confident assertion/wild speculation that they made it to the summit when the reality is that we will probably never know.
I regularly wear goggles winter mountaineering, and it's pretty common to take them off going up as strenuous exertion can fog them up
So it is inconclusive at best
Looking forward to waves of confident assertion/wild speculation that they made it to the summit when the reality is that we will probably never know.
The people at Kodak have said that the camera film might still be viable as it's so cold and dry up there. If it is ever found and can be developed and does contain a picture from the summit then we'll know. If it's never found, or isn't viable then I guess it'll remain a mystery.
I can't think of any other way it can proved one way or the other.
The goggles on Malory likely show they were on the way down in the dark, but was that after a successful attempt or an aborted attempt? Also, Mallory had a photo of his wife he was going to leave at the top, that wasn't on him. Did he leave it at the top or lose it in the fall?
Yes, there are so many reasons why he might have taken his goggles off that to advance it as evidence of having reached the summit is laughable.
Did he leave it at the top or lose it in the fall?
Or leave it at the high point where they turned round? That's entirely possible too.
As you say, a summit photo would be the only conclusive evidence and it's highly unlikely we'll ever have that.
I've got no problem with people engaging with the mystery and romance of the story. What bothers me slightly is the weight some place in very flimsy evidence.
When Mallory conversed with his leader Norton in his tent on the North Col before embarking on the fateful attempt, Norton was at that point almost immobile with snow blindness having removed his goggles high on the mountain during his voyage into the couloir the day before. It is therefore highly unlikely that the risks of removing those goggles wouldn't have been at the forefront of his mind, unless of course the sun had already descended before them. True, we were always a few further clues away from any kind of certainty, and it is all speculation - which is what has made it such an enduring mystery. Yet there is still a balance of probability from the limited facts that are known...
Yet there is still a balance of probability from the limited facts that are known…
That they didn't make it to the summit?
To me a successful ascent of Everest includes making it back alive so I don't think historically it should take away from Hillary / Norgay even if it was 100% proven they made it.
Similarly the worlds highest skydive without a parachute record would be easy to break if you didn't need to survive.
Something else to bear in mind is that there is now a bit of an industry invested in keeping the mystery alive.
As an example of this, when Holding and Anker freed the Second Step Holding was initially very, very sceptical of the chances of Mallory and Irvine having climbed it*. By the time the documentary came out they were much more positive about their chances.
*I know Mallory and Irvine might have found a different route.
and if they spent that much time above 8000 it’s not likely they were just hanging around having a cup of tea admiring the view…
Anyone who has spent much time in the mountains will tell you that there are all manner of things that can take up huge amounts of time.
there is now a bit of an industry invested in keeping the mystery alive.
ha you watch one YT video on this stuff and your feed is wrecked for weeks
I think they put everything into reaching the summit,
The problem I have with this is that it would have been suicidal and they'd have known that. We're they the type of people to take such a risk? I don't know many mountaineers who would and both certainly had much to live for.
I've always been mildly fascinated by the clothing replica project that suggested that even if they didn't make it to the summit, their clothing did, erm, sorry, their clothing could have managed. At least in favourable conditions.
Otherwise, I'm happy enough not to know one way or another. It feels like a regrettable facet of modern culture that we always seem to want a black and white answer. I suspect a lot of those who are keen to know, believe that they made it. If it turns out that they didn't - hard to prove maybe - it'll take all the mystery out of it.
A bit of uncertainty in the world isn't such a bad thing.
But people aren’t interested in who made the first successful ascent. They are interested in who made the first ascent.
I can’t say it’s been troubling me! But Netflix presumably are poised with a documentary…
The problem I have with this is that it would have been suicidal and they’d have known that.
If you read Jon Krakaueur's book Into Thin Air, Rob Hall was a very experienced climber who died after completely ignoring his deadline for beginning his descent, which just seems incomprehensible from the comfort of an office chair. One of the results of hypoxia is impaired judgement so it's quite possible Mallory and Irvine made a similar mistake to Rob Hall and kept pushing on.
Anyone who has spent much time in the mountains will tell you that there are all manner of things that can take up huge amounts of time.
Am aware. And yet there climbing style had little to do with modern techniques and equipment. We have detailed step by step accounts and timings from Norton and the subsequent traverses made in the 30's by Smythe etc... so know roughly what to expect for the difficulties encountered no matter which route they actually took... and if Odell saw them on the 3rd then it puts them ruddy close to the summit pyramid...some great drama unfolded, the desire to work out what is in someway an attempt to do justice to their endeavour. More to come I suspect, once it melts out.
If you read Jon Krakaueur’s book Into Thin Air, Rob Hall was a very experienced climber who died after completely ignoring his deadline for beginning his descent, which just seems incomprehensible from the comfort of an office chair. One of the results of hypoxia is impaired judgement so it’s quite possible Mallory and Irvine made a similar mistake to Rob Hall and kept pushing on.
I'm aware of how hypoxia can affect judgement. However, to have already been hypoxic enough to impair judgement at the time when they'd have had to turn round for a safe return then to get to the summit and far enough back down in the dark to explain the location of Mallory's body seems extremely unlikely.
if Odell saw them on the 3rd then it puts them ruddy close to the summit
Odell described them as being on “the last step but one from the base of the final pyramid.” and expressed surprise that it had taken them so long to get to that point so it seems pretty unlikely that he saw them on the third step.
However, to have already been hypoxic enough....
Which is why if a 33 oxygen bottle can be spit out of the glacier also, then to one day find the intact discarded oxygen apparatus frames of M&I and their location would be interesting...
No evidence to say they did or didn't make it, but interesting to see the arguments from those who believe either of them.
I hope they had made it, but we won't know for quite some time yet, if at all.
No evidence to say they did or didn’t make it,
No conclusive evidence. However, Odell's sighting puts them most likely on either the first or second step. His surprise at their slow progress, comments on how little daylight they had to summit and description of them climbing the step quickly suggests the first step but obviously there's room for error in all that.
Assuming it's broadly correct, it's still not impossible that they reached the summit.
Throw in worsening weather, falling air pressure and the fact that they would have had to have descended quite a distance in the dark without head torches to explain the location of Mallory's body and it starts to seem very unlikely indeed that they made the summit.
In short, the things that point to them not having made it, although not conclusive seem much more substantial than the evidence offered that they were successful.
What I find more interesting is that Sandy Irvine was only 22 .. those rich kids had a new world of adventures and opportunities back then
What makes you think its any different now? The big difference is the new gen of teenagers doing it is more likely to monetize it with a series of Yourtube vids...
What makes you think its any different now?
Because there are less unexplored places in the world and less mountains to be conquered.
100 years ago, if you were rich (or mummy and daddy were) then deepest darkest Africa, South America etc were your play grounds.
Nowadays the world is smaller. Can you give a modern example of someone aged 22 having a similar opportunity as Sandy Irvine did?
His surprise at their slow progress, comments on how little daylight they had to summit and description of them climbing the step quickly suggests the first step but obviously there’s room for error in all that.
Gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with this today. Just to correct the above, Odell thought they were at the Second Step although I don't think they used that terminology back then. I guess that's the reason for all the interest in the Second Step. Some modern commentators seem to think they found a different route but that would cast doubt on Odell's observations. However, there is some doubt about whether it was the Second Step Odell saw them at as it's unlikely they could have climbed it as quickly as he said they did.
Edit: Also, apparently there is some evidence that Mallory climbed with two pairs of goggles so the pair in his pocket may have been a spare pair and the other pair lost in the fall.
It is of course possible that neither Mallory/Irvine not Hillary/Norway were first. First recorded, but not necessarily first.
When Yoshitaro Shibasaki and his team completed their 1907 (only 17 years before the Irvine/Mallory expedition) ascent of Mount Tsurugi — thought to be the final unclimbed mountain remaining in the Japanese archipelago — they found an ancient sword at the summit that was later determined to have been left there more than 1000 years earlier. Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Irvine/Mallory's clothing and equipment has been found to be fine, tested by experienced climbers in (IIRC) 2007 and people have done it without oxygen, so it would have been possible in the 19th, 18th, 17th centuries. Humans being humans can we really expect hundreds of generations to have lived near it and not one person thought 'I wonder if I can get to the top of that?' and been of sufficient ability to pull it off? They wouldn't have known it was the highest of course but people are curious and like a challenge, it's not just a twentieth century thing, it's just that we have more tech to enable us nowadays.
Another example, it is likely that James Parrot was the first to run a four minute mile, in 1770. He did it for a (very substantial) bet, which he won, so we can be pretty sure that the distance and time will have been measured properly. Others in the late 1700s and early 1800s also did it. And these were the guys measuring and timing it, who knows who did it chasing an antelope or fleeing a lion.
There is even debate about who was the first man in space. Yuri Gargarin was certainly the first to return successfully, but there are rumours that at least one of the earlier soviet test flights was manned but that the pilot did not survive. However, it's unlikely to have been done by anyone back in the eighteenth century, although some interpretations of the book of Enoch read like a UFO abduction.
