A persistant  refusal to accept reality has become increasingly imbedded in Tory policy over the last decade.

Sunak in his desperation is promising further tax cuts, which everyone knows can’t be funded by anything other than taking a hatchet to already decimated public service budgets.

Not that it will make any difference to his popularity, but further tax cuts for working people is one of the few things the tories are right on. People are still suffering from the inflation spike and the resultant higher borrowing costs so extra money in their pocket is exactly what they need right now, and it will also provide a much needed economic boost. I see though you’re towing the ‘we don’t have any money’ line which Rachel Reeves is so keen on so I guess there’s little hope of the labour party doing much to help people*.

*Assuming of course that they’re being honest, which I think we all know is unlikely.

Sunak and his Govt added £120bn to the National Debt just in the last 12 months, ignore anything he says about “funding”.

Labour unfortunately have got to follow the ‘line’ while in Opposition, otherwise the Tory-Press will hound them (even though the Tories are adding to the National Debt at +£300m PER DAY, which they obviously never mention).

https://twitter.com/BylineTimes/status/1787776939106664935?t=j-yYgks8fXpSmZeR_8N8lQ&s=19

They really are desperate. Their last attempt at voter suppression seems to have failed, so let’s go for a new one

Labour unfortunately have got to follow the ‘line’ while in Opposition

Labour might have to but I think here we can be honest and bin any talk about not being able to ‘afford’ or ‘fund’ tax cuts. The question is not whether we can fund them but whether they’re the best way to support working people and/or boost the economy.

is it me or does that photo up there look like a still from a HSE video, ‘how to spot inappropriate behavior in the workplace.

Banning postal votes would be suicidal lunacy for the Tories.  In the locals we were about equal with the Tories on postal but won significantly in every box. Same in almost all wards – postal voters are usually older therefore significantly more likely to vote conservative.

Clarke- Smith is basically making a very ill informed dig re mayoral elections and allusion to postal voters fraud. He knows the Tory party will not stop postal voting and so is safe I making Trump style unfounded statements

A lot of Tory voters and a few MPs have gone full Trump and are blaming voter fraud particularly in relation to Khan… We can probably all guess why.

Make England Great Again! Stop the Steal!

😑

Another thread where we all pretend that taxing and spending are arbitrary? Managing the balance between money created, spent, taxed, lent, borrowed… this is all key. Everyone know that the links between these and the considerations that need to be made are neither direct or simple… but deciding to change any of them… effects all the others, and impacts on all our lives. The over simplification of tax breaks being funded by spending cuts (or visa versa) is worth challenging, but replacing that with glib claims that they do not affect each other is no better. Looking at the “affordability” of tax cuts (especially those which the better off will benefit from) is entirely valid (and essential)… that does not means that taxes directly and solely fund spending.

Another thread where we all pretend that taxing and spending are arbitrary?

Nope. Just another attempt to debunk the myth that the govt doesn’t have any money. Clearly the labour party centrists have swallowed it (apart from spending money on weapons of course) and are going to allow it to prevent them from doing anything useful. Or more likely they’re using it as an excuse for not doing anything useful or changing anything, which is exactly what the corporate establishment and billionaire power brokers want.

So should labour support tory calls for lower taxes for working people or carry on pretending we can’t afford them?

“Money… it’s all just one big conspiracy… man… open your mind…”

So should labour support tory calls for lower taxes for working people or carry on pretending we can’t afford them?

I’d prioritise public services over tax breaks for well off “working people” every time. Because the working class relying on those services and can’t afford the private provisions, like private health care and eduction, that those well off “working people” will spend their tax breaks on.

^^ I obviously have a vested interest these days but even without it, I’d agree. 👍

like private health care and eduction, that those well off “working people” will spend their tax breaks on.

You seriously think ‘well off’ (what does that mean BTW?) working class people spend money on private health care and education??? You might want to reconnect with the real world.

He didn’t say ” working class people” he said ” working people”

He didn’t say ” working class people” he said ” working people”

Ok whatever. I know loads of ‘well off’ working people and I can assure you that none of them can afford private health care or education. Most of them are trying to figure out how to cover the increase in their mortgages and how they’re going to pay for their kids university living expenses (no the loans don’t cover it) or childcare costs (that goes for me too before anyone asks).

I’d prioritise public services over tax breaks for well off “working people” every time.

Still interested in what ‘well off’ means. The cuts in NI benefited anyone earning between 12.5k and 50k per year. Is that what you mean? Even at the upper end no one I know earning 50k is sending their kids to private school or paying for private health care.

Yes, I think that earning 50k a year is “well off”… and if the Tories win and “reward” many of us with tax breaks, then the further deterioration of the NHS means you’d better bloody be choosing private health insurance… the number of family and friends (with lower than £50k income) that have had to resort to going private in the last few years is shocking… including life saving cancer treatment in two cases. If I had the means, I’d have health cover… despite hating the idea that anyone should need it at all. A tax break for me (and those earning much more than me) isn’t going to fix the NHS. Choosing tax breaks over public services is bonkers right now. Pretending you can easily have both doesn’t help with the immediate political choices ahead for the UK.

As toilets are all the the rage in the Tory party, this unrelated story amused me a little.

Women-only museum becomes a toilet to keep men out

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd1wpegrnrxo

The UK proposals are all about sinks, aren’t they? Not toilets. Your new facility can have as many shared use toilets as you want, with no unisex toilets at all… as long as people don’t have to share sinks.

Yes, I think that earning 50k a year is “well off”

Me too but it’s nowhere near enough to be paying for private healthcare (aside from emergency one-off elective procedures) and private education. Even the people on 100k+ who I know can’t afford those.

Choosing tax breaks over public services is bonkers right now. Pretending you can easily have both doesn’t help with the immediate political choices ahead for the UK.

It’s not an either/or though. Funny how we can have tax cuts and spend 10s of billions on arms but not tax cuts and a functioning NHS. And a couple of percent on national insurance or income tax isn’t going to fix the NHS, the only thing that will do that is political will. All you’re doing is falling into the tories trap of framing everything around whether we can afford it or not.

Here’s an idea, how about we give everyone below the top tax rate a meaningful tax cut (or raise the thresholds to where they should be) and hike taxes for everyone on 100k+. I don’t hear any centrist types calling for more tax for the rich, which is a bit odd as according to the ‘we have no money’ narrative we can’t afford not to be taxing them more.

I agree it’s political will how public money is spent but the message needs to be understood that it is not the government “finding the money” it’s the government prioritising how it spends “our money”.

We need to make people think of it in those terms to try and get them engaged in politics as a whole.

The next plan for Tory revival…  😉

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/sunak-pins-hopes-on-new-pandemic-20240503247500

I just subscribed to private healthcare through work, it soaked up about the same as one of the tax cuts.  I did it because my daughter’s not well and the NHS a) wasn’t doing well for us and b) someone else needs it more than we do.

Clearly the labour party centrists have swallowed it (apart from spending money on weapons of course) and are going to allow it to prevent them from doing anything useful.

Dazh – did you pay NO ATTENTION to my earlier post at all?

Ok whatever. I know loads of ‘well off’ working people and I can assure you that none of them can afford private health care or education.

You obviously don’t know loads of “well off working people” or your definition of well off is, ‘well off’.

We put our kids through private education and have also paid for private health – we’re still “working”.

Anyway my prospective local MP is still tweeting how the locals were a great night for the Tory party

In our patch, we are defying the narrative and increasing our level of support. Conservatives in our constituency increased their vote share in five of the eight wards in MK Central compared to 2023.

The overall vote share in our patch between the Conservatives and Labour is… pic.twitter.com/yzspPa7XsJ

— Johnny Luk (@Johnny__Luk) May 6, 2024

you’d think from his tweet they’d done well

these are the results he’s talking about

Im not sure whether its some elaborate tactic to make me give him a pity vote at the GE?

You obviously don’t know loads of “well off working people” or your definition of well off is, ‘well off’.

So you don’t agree with Kelvin that 50k is ‘well off’?

Anyway my point is that the tax cuts that have happened and are being proposed by the tories are not just cuts for the rich, although I have no doubt the tories would love to cut taxes for the very well off if they could get away with it. What I’m more interested in though is why supposed progressives like Binners and Kelvin (and other labour supporters) aren’t supportive of tax cuts which would help a huge number of working people, especially when the money ‘spent’ on them won’t do anything to improve public services if the political will to improve those services doesn’t exist. Seems to me that’s supporting the age old tory narrative of labour spending other peoples money.

And you seem to be “supporting” the “age old tory narrative” that people’s lives will be made better by tax cuts.

In the next few years, the focus needs to be on improving the services that they and others either need or will need, and by running the country in a way that doesn’t lead to a deeper and deeper gap between incomes and the cost of living.

And you seem to be “supporting” the “age old tory narrative” that people’s lives will be made better by tax cuts.

No the tory tax cut mantra is that people are better at spending their own money than the govt is. I’m not talking about that, I’m talking about the specific and desperately needed support people need right now to cope with the cost of living (and higher interest rates due to BoE incompetence) and tax cuts are the best way of achieving that. There’s no reason a labour govt should be against lower taxes for working people. They should be addressing the inequality in tax between working people and the very rich.

and by running the country in a way that doesn’t lead to a deeper and deeper gap between incomes and the cost of living.

How does keeping taxes high reduce the gap between wages and the cost of living? Tax cuts are the most direct and impactful thing a govt can do to put money into the pockets of working people. As long as those tax cuts don’t fuel inflation (they won’t in this case) then there’s very little downside.

So you don’t agree with Kelvin that 50k is ‘well off’?

I don’t GAS what he said, I was replying to your post – but as usually you didn’t respond.

And no, £50k isn’t “well off” – in fact it’s barely twice the Minimum/Living Wage.

And no, £50k isn’t “well off” – in fact it’s barely twice the Minimum/Living Wage.

Which supports my point that the tax cuts proposed by the tories are not a giveaway to the better off as Kelvin is arguing. I’d be the last person to support a tax cut for those who don’t need one but that’s not the case here. Anyway, given Reeves and Starmer are terrified of anything that might differentiate them from the tories I have no doubt that they will keep any tax cuts brought in by them so it’s probably a moot point.

And I reckon 50k is well off BTW. It’s not a huge amount by any means but I know many professionally qualified people who will never earn that much. It nicely illustrates the difference though between the expectations of the wealthy and the non-wealthy.

And I reckon 50k is well off BTW.

depends on context, it wont get you far if youre mortgage has been Trussed or youre paying off a lot of debt, likewise if you are the single earner of a family then its a very different proposition from being a single bloke with no commitments!

A reminder that most full-time workers in the UK earn less than £35k a year.

If you’re on £50k, you’re in the top 5% of all earners if you include full and part time workers. You are well off. If you think you’re not, have a think about the other 95% of workers… and how failing services are effecting them even more than they do you. This country needs renewal, not right wing low taxation smaller government nonsense. Tax cuts need to wait. And when/if they do come, should be targeted at the bottom half of society first… and, to be clear, if you’re on £50k a year… that’s not you.

Anyway my prospective local MP is still tweeting how the locals were a great night for the Tory party

One of the Independents standing on an anti-LTN / anti-15 minute neighbourhoods platform (this was in London) did something similar, tweeting that the anti-LTN manifesto had increased its share of the vote by 50% from previously, an indication of how unpopular they were, blah blah.

The candidate had come dead last with about 2000 votes overall.

I’d prioritise public services over tax breaks for well off “working people” every time. Because the working class relying on those services and can’t afford the private provisions, like private health care and eduction, that those well off “working people” will spend their tax breaks on.

Private health care provision isn’t expensive through a business. The small company I work for provides it for all staff if we want it and it costs us a small benefit in kind payment. It costs them a few hundred per person which they consider a small price to pay to minimise disruption and get us back to work quicker.

Private health care provision isn’t expensive through a business. The small company I work for provides it for all staff if we want it and it costs us a small benefit in kind payment. It costs them a few hundred per person which they consider a small price to pay to minimise disruption and get us back to work quicker.

Which is very true, but  is not tne same as people being able to afford private treatment for themselves and their family themselves. I’m guessing it’s not available to Tesco shelf stackers either.

Point of order: there is nothing to say you can’t have targeted tax cuts at the lower income levels and public spending  at the same time.

The Tories are obsessed with growth via tax cuts – yeah it doesn’t work.  But tax cuts for lower percentile earners would be a logical direction as lower earners spend a larger share of income on things that count rather than yachts (resource heavy) etc.

People need to grapple with the idea is that public services are miles behind and they need a huge swing in the other direction.

Labour will have had several years to wait and draw up a plan so let’s not be looking for stalling excuses – no one really wants more flat-lining economic data.

But tax cuts for lower percentile earners would be a logical direction as lower earners spend a larger share of income on things that count rather than yachts (resource heavy) etc.

Absolutely. And you should also look at income for those that wouldn’t benefit from tax cuts. The current “Tory narrative” is tax cuts for those who think they’re “middle income” but are in fact higher earners, paired with attacks on those in receipt of need based benefits.

At least even the Conservatives have recognised that a half decent minimum wage level is needed. Still so far to go to help those on low or no income though. Plenty that can and should be done before aiming any tax cuts at anyone in the top half of earners.

Just looked in to see if there was anything new, interesting or relevant in recent posts.

There isn’t so…back to campaigning,  fundraising, data collection and all the other stuff required to make a Labour government a reality.

My MP is jenrick; Reform have confirmed their PPC in the constituency so…what will honest bob, poster boy for the right wing, do? Move towards the centre, lose right wing votes to Reform; move even further to the right, lose votes of ‘moderate conservatives’ (pinching Andy Street’s description) to any of Lab/LDs/Greens//Independents.

The concern is that a fracturing of centrist support will allow jenrick to retain his seat.

@crazy-legs Apart from some odd results in Oxford, I don’t know of anyone who stood on an overt anti-LTN/anti-active travel platform and did well as a result.