So that olive oil your using is no better than most other chemical refined oils.

To be honest I cook with EV from Lidl – it’s not expensive there, though I do wonder on the provenance being as it is about half the price… make syou use a little less when you know how much it costs, but maybe I should be pouring it on 🙂

Regular olive oil is refined from all the crap that has been pressed for all its good oil. It is chemically refined and the result is…..Lamp oil!
This has high levels of certain toxins that are known to be toxic to humans and animals.
To make it fit for human consumption it has a small amount of extra virgin added to it to water down the toxic acids, from IIRC 6% (above which is toxic apparently) to 5% which makes all the difference apparently.

Any source on that? As that sounds like pomace, what they make soap and the like out of. The olive equivalent of mechanically reclaimed meat <shiver>.
AFAIK ‘olive oil’ sold for consumption was just virgin olive oil mechanically filtered after pressing to make it last longer by not having bits presumably rotting in it(but loses some taste in the process.. so OK to cook with, not so good for dressings).

But we might ask what we’d get from unrefined rapeseed oil, and whether we need it or whether such nutrients might not be available from another source.

Well out of all the available “general purpose” cooking oils it seems to me to be one of the best – high in omega 3, high smokepoint, fairly neutral flavour, not outrageously expensive. I’m definitely going to get some coconut oil to try though. What exactly do you feel are the health benefits of butter over a vegetable-derived oil (aside from the fact it’s not processed)?

Well it only took 2 years+ for someone to come along and back up what I’ve been bleating on about and getting grief over. cheers tom, I owe you a beetroot juice.

Whilst I find much of what you say compelling and it makes good sense to me, I am sure that the agreement of one small voice in the scientific wilderness does not show absolute proof.

Just as with issues such as global warming there will always be individuals on either side of the fence.

What’s needed to give these theories credibility is lots of study not evangelical adherence, as I’m sure you will be the first to admit.

It would be such a shame if this type of eating plan was globally accepted and long term implications then became apparent, very much like seems to have occurred with the low fat phenomena.

ah, the do nothing till its proven approach

procrastinate tomorrow.

ah, the do nothing till its proven approach

Not really.

I just thought science was supposed to be based on,,,y’know, science and stuff.

Otherwise you could just have a diet of mars bars and coke cos god said it would keep you fit and healthy.

@dangerous beans – I think you’ll find god handed out milk and honey.

Well out of all the available “general purpose” cooking oils it seems to me to be one of the best – high in omega 3, high smokepoint, fairly neutral flavour, not outrageously expensive.

That’s why I use it, however I was skim reading a section last night on Fat Types in Phil Maffetone’s “The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing”, which suggested that although it’s high in omega 3 it’s not the right type of omega 3, short-chain rather than long-chain I think. The body can then convert it to the good type but it’s not very good at it, so you don’t actually end up with much of the good stuff.
Or something like that – I wasn’t really concentrating 🙂
Interesting book though.

A quick google supports this ^^^. **** me, this is getting complicated. 😆

So whilst short-chain o3 is an essential nutrient, long-chain is better for your heart and you need to bear in mind that you want a large o3:o6 ratio. Which means, I guess, that cold-pressed rapeseed oil, whilst not being unhealthy, is not the healthiest either? So does coconut oil win then, with its long-chain o3 and zero o6?

However, studies suggest adverse effects on blood lipid levels and an increase in cardiac arrhythmias, and I know individuals who have had to end the diet and accept higher seizure frequencies.

Dangerousbeans – interesting comment on the arrhythmias,

I used to get a few extra (ectopic) beats after running hard when slowing down – actually feels more like a missed beat because the heart pumps when the chamber has no blood in it. Looked it up and it seemed relatively common.

Since being on a low carb diet, I am getting a lot, lot more, often when not even exercising, so I’ll definitely look into this! If you have any links I’d be interested.

you need to bear in mind that you want a large o3:o6 ratio

I’ve been under the impression that we ought to aim for as low a ratio of o3 to o6 as is practicable.

In a perfect world we’d have a ratio of 1:1, but thats probably impossible.

To my limited understanding (happy to be enlightened) o6 is a pro-inflammatory ESA.
So, whilst we need to possess this attribute, to a certain extent.
If we are too inflammed ( Too much o6 in our diet ), this may manifest itself as athlerosclerosis.
resulting in the accumilation of plaque in arterys ???.

So, I was thinking that o3 balances out o6, to keep our inflammatory response in check.

Tom would probably know this one, I’m guessing.

I’ve been under the impression that we ought to aim for as low a ratio of o3 to o6 as is practicable.

In a perfect world we’d have a ratio of 1:1, but thats probably impossible.
Yes, you are quite correct, as further googling since my post has revealed. I am still confused as to what this all means though, regarding which oil is best to use for cooking!

Also, I’ve taken to frying in butter after learning that heating EVO to high, destroys its omega 3 content.

Seeing as I do not measure or monitor the temperature of the oil I’m frying with.

I’ve just switched over to butter.

I tried coconut oil once, and had a mild reaction.
So looks like I can’t use coconut oil.

Yes, you are quite correct, as further googling since my post has revealed. I am still confused as to what this all means though, regarding which oil is best to use for cooking!

Might you be able to just use oil cold, for dressings and the like and fry in butter ?.

So is it agreed that coconut milk is fine, in fact its even better than fine its positivity brimming with healthy goodness, and I am safe to live on thai curry for the rest of my life, as long as I find a suitable replacement for the rice element of the meal?

I’ve just started to use rice bran oil for most of my cooking, seems to tick many of the “healthy oil” boxes, although like most oils this probably depends on the method of extraction and the amount of processing

Now I’ve just read that paragraph on MDA regarding coconut milk.
Mark seems not to be too worried about Guar Gum as an additive to processed coconut milk.

Yet I have read that guar gum causes micrscopic lisions in the intestine, which over a prolonged period of time.
Can cause, issues.
❓

Personally, I avoid Guar Gum and Xantham gum.

Mudmuncher – Best et al is the one we always reference, its called something like ‘ cardiac complications for pediatric case’ – not at work now so not got it to hand.

Must state – this is talking about long term near zero carbs although I suppose there is a likelihood that if you are succeptible then you may experience it sooner.

Don’t get me wrong, it works really well for some people, just seems to cause problems after a significant timescale.

I used to be a bodybuilder and used to go high protein/zero carb and get some weird beat rhythms so know what you mean.

Might you be able to just use oil cold, for dressings and the like and fry in butter ?.

Yes, possibly. I should have said “what fat” rather than “what oil”. Rapid googling reveals that all butters are not created equal though – butter from grass-fed cows is best, apparently, which (as far as I can work out) is Anchor/Kerrygold/Yeo Organic. Still going to get some coconut oil as well though, that seems to get the thumbs up all round.

So is it agreed that coconut milk is fine

I think so, although it is not the same as coconut oil. Probably quite calorie-dense though, so maybe not the best idea if you are trying to lose weight.

I’ve just started to use rice bran oil for most of my cooking

This would probably not be iDave-compatible, therefore not an option for me!

Very interesting discussion, agree with all that Tom has said, been reading around this area for some years now after suffering IBS symptoms.

On a side note, as apart of my journey reading about IBS came across ‘SCD diet’ google if want to more more but basic premise is that a lot of intestinal problems may be down to increase in are gut flora (bacterial) due to many carbs that we don’t digest well (bacteria feed of them). I know for myself that limiting carbs makes me feel a whole lot better.

So limiting carbs (only taking at the correct time post exercise) may not only help improve performance but help your gut, and not just to stay smaller.

Some other stuff here

http://www.medlink.com/medlinkcontent.asp

And found Best (although only the abstract)

http://www.neurology.org/content/54/12/2328.short

Thanks Dangerousbeans! I’ve found quite a lot on this already along with various ancedotes from people who started having arrthymias/palpitations on a LC diet that went away when they started taking more carbs. Food for thought!

ah I see the topic has focused squarely on oils since I’ve been gone.

coconut oil is the best, BUT you have to really like the coconut taste. I can tolerate it but don’t love it.

Its fantastic for frying, butter burns after a while, EV OL (as with most other oils) is sucked into the food. Coconut oil just sits there, you only need a tiny amount and it sticks around, the food doesn’t burn. However as I said it does flavour the food somewhat!

Well that was a nice ride in the sun, better take advantage while it lasts!

Anyone fancy doing a summary of pertinent info from this thread?

“What’s needed to give these theories credibility is lots of study not evangelical adherence, as I’m sure you will be the first to admit.”

Taube’s “The diet Delusion”, “Good Fats Bad Fats” in the US, is very heavily referenced. It’s also a pretty good (but lengthy) summary of this thread. Plenty other science writers out there writing on the subject of oils , carbs, soya, high fructose corn syrups, eg. Felicity Lawrence, Zoe Harcombe. There’s nothing in it for the food industry and big pharma.

I’m interested to hear that Tom as a cardiologist is onto the subject, I’ve been wondering when our cardiology colleagues would start thinking about these theories as it’s pretty pertinent to their work, it’ll throw the diabetologists too. Whether it’s wrong or right it’s obvious looking at the population (and not the exercising STW population) that there’s trouble at ‘t Mill, lots of fat & unhealthy individuals.

My “opinion” is that the truth may lie in the middle, exercising youngsters are not the same population as the older exercising adults or the sedentary population. Having said that, opinion is worthless in my book, science counts. 🙂

My take on this is that although the science and the minutiae of diet is important and valuable, we seem to be at a stage where the relationship people have with food is so distorted that obesity is inevitable for a large part of the population.

I work alongside people who ‘diet’, they eat weightwatcher meals, they eat salad, then they eat bloody biscuits and chocolates as a ‘treat’.

I despair of pointing out the essential and obvious problem; it’s far less what they eat than how bloody much of it they consume without even thinking, and then a new magazine appears and a new diet fad follows.

Thanks for this thread and the informed opinions of tomhughes, iDave etc. It has made for very fascinating reading.

I’ve been following a low carb “lifestyle” for two years after reading a book called “Life without Bread”.This thread pretty much summarises that book.

It’s heartening to see that the medical fraternity are finally waking up to the reality that we have been lied to for the last 40 or so years, by the government and by the food indsutry.

Although I suspect that sadly most of this new information will fall on deaf ears and/or be violently refuted by the food industry. Producing low nutrition, unhealthy, processed food is an easy way to feed the population and a big money spinner. Cant see the food industry and the government walking away from that without a fight.

Bit late to the thread, but amazed to find some kindred spirits, who believe (understand?) that fat is not the enemy and you don’t need carbs for exercise.

The original question was about riding on low/zero carbs – here’s a link to an American doc and athlete who’s gone low carb and the effect that it’s had on his athletic performance: http://waroninsulin.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance

Joe Friel, widely acknowledged as one of the top coaches in the world, now advocates low carb after switching from a typical carb-heavy athlete diet and realising improvements in both performance and recovery.

Personally, I’ve moved to a lower carb regime, cut processed white carbs and sugar, and learned to enjoy good fats and protein. Having said that, I’m not particularly zealous and I’ve not taken it as far as some others. I’m still happy to have stuff like muesli, basmati rice, some wholemeal pasta and the odd slice of wholemeal toast. I tend to work on the 80/20 rule – be good 80% of the time and the combined benefits outweigh the odd lapse. The other thing is, the longer it goes on, the easier it seems to get.

From an athletic perspective, since changing my diet, I’m about 8kg lighter (and I was hardly a heavyweight to begin with) and my power ratios are up ~20% on last season. How much is to do with increased training and how much to diet is up for debate, but the two are intertwined – diet is an enabler for my training load.

I now tend to do most of my training in a fasted state and can happily ride for 3-4 hours without too much issue. For longer rides, I tend to top up with bars and a carb drink. Would I be happy racing fasted (as others have mentioned)? I don’t think I’m ready to take that step…

A couple of questions for those on the thread more qualified than myself:
1. Is pushing out the amount of time I can ride without eating just a case of training, or is there a natural limit?
2. How do you balance increased training intensity with carb intake? From my reading, even the most efficient athletes have an RQ of 0.85 – one would assume small amounts of carb intake for higher intensity efforts.
3. From a purely hypothetical perspective, because I’m unlikely to ever do it, how are glycogen stores replenished with no carbs? Gluconeogenesis? How long does that typically take?

Its fantastic for frying, butter burns after a while, EV OL (as with most other oils) is sucked into the food. Coconut oil just sits there, you only need a tiny amount and it sticks around, the food doesn’t burn. However as I said it does flavour the food somewhat!

Tom.
When frying, I will add cider vinegar, black pepper, salt and red wine.
I wonder if that may help offset the flavour of the coconut oil ?.
Just a thought.

I tend to work on the 80/20 rule – be good 80% of the time and the combined benefits outweigh the odd lapse. The other thing is, the longer it goes on, the easier it seems to get.

Dude !, thats like the iDave diet.
6 days adherent, one day off as in eat whatever you want.

3. From a purely hypothetical perspective, because I’m unlikely to ever do it, how are glycogen stores replenished with no carbs? Gluconeogenesis? How long does that typically take?

Good Q. I’m thinking that Gluconeogenesis may only occur under extreme conditions.
But I also understand that the body will use alternate sources to manufacture carbs.
So, while a person may choose not to ingest any or very few carbs.
Your body may well have the final say.

not tried it solo, but the coconut oil is sooo powerful.

That said, after using it for a week or so you kind of get used to the taste. Its always there but nowhere near as strong as when you first use it. Also because of the way it is not absorbed into the food you can sort of drain it off which removes most of the taste.

Since eating a higher protein/lower, more complex carb diet I’ve had less trouble with ectopic beats.

This is an interesting thread.

I’m coeliac and also have Crohns, although it is in remission at the moment. I did the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) and it worked really well for me. I don’t follow it to the letter now – I include some white rice, potatoes and sweet potatoes in my diet, but I generally try and limit my grain consumption.

I go back to the SCD if I have any signs of a flare up of digestive symptoms and also take Intestaid IB which is brilliant for irritable bowel type symptoms.

There is some evidence to suggest that people with digestive issues do not digest grains as well as others, hence why there is some relief to be had from diets like the SCD or Paleolithic diet.

Tom.

Although my first encounter with coconut oil didn’t go well.
You’re making me want to try it again.
🙂

I will admit that the first time it wasn’t for frying.
So maybe I’ll have better luck using it as a frying oil.

There is some evidence to suggest that people with digestive issues do not digest grains as well as others, hence why there is some relief to be had from diets like the SCD or Paleolithic diet.

Yeap. I’m now utterly convinced that I wasn’t designed to get the best from, Thrive !, on a grain rich diet.

A work colleague now has Chrohns.
He said it developed after eating a dodgy yoghurt / health thingy.
Scared the crap out of me though.
Reckons he was as fit as a butchers dog before it occured.
Pity really, I do worry for him.
He hasn’t needed surgery yet.
I hope he won’t.

Solo, couple of quick questions for you mate.

is the only differance between the idiet and the primal plan, the non eating of fruit and the day off?

i am not really having much of a day off, my treats on my supposed day off have been a few (4 ) roast spuds and a small bar of 80% chocolate.
i feel that if i have a full blown day off, all my good work will be wasted.
on the primal plan, there is no day off is there?

Dude !, thats like the iDave diet.
6 days adherent, one day off as in eat whatever you want.

Yeah, except I can’t do the adherence for 6 days in a row!

The concept of 80/20 actually came from an interview I read with Greg Parham when I was first reading up on low carb and mountain bike racing: http://www.livingpaleo.com/guest/Greg-Parham-Talks-About-The-Paleo-Diet-For-Performance.html – well worth a read.

is the only differance between the idiet and the primal plan, the non eating of fruit and the day off?

Thats a good call, I’d go with that, unless I’ve missed something.

i am not really having much of a day off, my treats on my supposed day off have been a few (4 ) roast spuds and a small bar of 80% chocolate.
i feel that if i have a full blown day off, all my good work will be wasted.
on the primal plan, there is no day off is there?

For now, I would suggest sticking to the iDave diet, which relies on the day off.
iDave would explain it better, but on the iDave diet, the day off IS part of the diet.
Its a fundamental component and you should adhere to it, imo

However. You, like me, are on a mission to lose weight.
But !. What do we do when we reach a body weight we’re happy with ?.

Previously, on the iDave diet, we’ve been trimming down.
And once you reach 12-15 percent body fat, IIRC iDave says you’ll plateau.
So then you just continue to eat your iDave diet, low GI meals, and stick with your days off.
Because the iDave diet isn’t a temporary adjustment to your diet.
Its a permanent change to what you eat.

With the Primal Blueprint, you’re observing a different approach.
I think that most of the Primal Blue Print probably applies, Once you have reached a sensible body weight / body fat percentage.

So, if I were you, continue with the iDave diet in order to trim-down and lose weight.
Then, once you get to your target.
Then, selectively, introduce some Primal elements into your daily life.
Remember. Going Primal isn’t just about diet, its about your lifestyle.
how you sleep, how you exercise, how you eat, how you play, how you move.

🙂

Solo, I developed Crohns after getting a parasite infection whilst travelling. Had been fit and healthy before that. Only explanation they could come up with is that the infection triggered off some sort of immune reaction and it went into overdrive, ended up with coeliac disease as well. Was told for years I just had IBS.

I’ve not had any surgery either – hope your mate won’t have to.

I don’t think that carbs are evil or anything but when I think of what my diet used to be like it’s a bit scary. I wouldn’t go as far as the Paleo theory that we’re not designed to eat them but I don’t think we were designed to eat the kind of junk food that gets pushed at us now full of additives and bulking agents and gums and allsorts. The grains we eat now are not what our grandparents would have eaten.

Bomba.

Thanks for the links.
😉

is the only differance between the idiet and the primal plan, the non eating of fruit and the day off?

Thats a good call, I’d go with that, unless I’ve missed something.
I think you have – the primal blueprint is high protein and low carb. Mark advises you to avoid legumes in particular, whereas iDave advises you to eat a lot of legumes to get your (slow) carbs.

There is certainly a lot of overlap between PB and iDave but also in some ways they take completely opposite approaches (especially when it comes to exercise).