Currently riding a MK3 Santa Cruz chameleon but feeling so beat up after riding it I’m not enjoying it.

This has got me thinking, is the frame just really harsh or is this how all hard tails are?
I’m hoping its just the characteristics of the frame and there are nicer riding frames out there.

So what can you recommend?
I tend to like more hardcore type bikes so initially thinking of the Cotic BFe,
From experience can anyone clarify if this will ride less harsh on the rear?

There are loads of other boutique brands I have seen people mention on this forum but can’t remember their names.

Recommend away! Don’t mind if its 26″ or 650b but don’t fancy going 29″

Maybe a Soul rather then BeFe? Mine is a Mk1, newer versions are even tougher.

Rear tyre, seatpost and saddle make more of a difference IME.

My Sanderson is the most sproingy ride of any HT I have tried – but that is a more trail/xc/light bike than a ‘core gnarpoon HT.

<awaits various claims of pixie dust, steel, etc…>

Well, hardtails are fundamentally stiff regardless of what people will claim – you can moderate that though with seatposts, tyres, bars etc.

That said, Chameleons are probably one of the stiffer frames out there so you may well notice a difference going to a different frame – just don’t believe that steel is always springy or other such nonsense. A BFe for example is a great frame but it’s not a springy one. Fatter tyres and longer (flexy) seatposts would do more.

I have a Decade Virtue (now called Virsa) which has seemingly paper thin Tange Prestige tubing.
I have heard from a forum member that they can be a bit snappy but I have had mine a good few years and it hasn’t snapped yet. I am no light weight either at around 15 stone.

I bought the frame initially as I had been riding full sus bikes for many years and had a hankering for a hardtail as my previous had been nicked some years before. I use the hardtail more than my full sus now and love this frame. I don’t notice any harshness from it at all.

Yep, a BFe doesn’t feel stiff in quite the same way as a Chameleon but don’t expect it to be springy or soft, it’s really not- I reckon all heavier steel frames feel pretty much the same, pretty solid. It seems to be basically thinness of tubes that provides the spring/”steel is real” stereotype.

It’s not super-hardcore but a Soul’s up for the riding that most people buy a BFe to do, and has a pretty different feel. Though, not sure if the latest ones with the biggest seat tubes etc are as boingy.

I love my Ragley Ti but even now they’re not cheap used buys.

as nemesis says…..chameleon is one stiff bike……….big tyres try a suspension seat post not KOOL but moderate the battering some what.

The most compliant HTs i have ridden were a Dialled Alpine and a 456-evo, the Alpine had 853 steel which i really couldnt tell any difference with over the cheaper 4130 steel of the On-One.

What made them great was delicate tubing, small 1 1/8 steerer tubes, narrow/compliant 27.2 mm seat tubes etc etc…i also had a 45650b and currently have a Ragley Piglet-2….both are harsh as you like with large 44 mm headtubing, 30.9 and 31.6 mm seat tubing and burly stays…comfy they are not!

Sadly the prevalence of tapered steerers and dropper posts are making delicate steel HTs a thing of the past….i remeber an article from one of the magazines when they tested 29er HTs, they had a steel Kona in the test with a 27.2 mm seat tube and were of the opinion that it was the high water mark of comfy HTs….the big wheels, the delicate stays, the narrow seat tube etc….nearly had me going to 29 inch wheels.

Anyway, frames i have found comfy as HTs:

Kona Caldera (aluminium and only takes 120mm forks but has the crucial 27.2 mm seattube and stays that were so thin i thought it was a steel frame when i first saw it, it rode great).

On-One 456-evo (steel and cheap, less than £100 on ebay, just sold mine for £75!…old school features make for a very compliant ride and takes long forks…i found 140mm to be perfect).

Dialled Alpine (steel of the Reynolds 853 variety, hold their price and getting rare now, same principle as the 456 above but more ’boutique’, lovely purple colour too).

…dont get a 45650b, the bigger wheels do not aid comfort on this, the frame is super stiff.

…likewise a Ragley Piglet-2 looks lovely and appears to be bombproof, but it is easily the heaviest bike i’ve owned, including full sussers!…the 31.6 mm seat tube is ridiculous but i cant sell it, i have a great set of 140mm coil forks on the front and take it on uplift days for giggles, mental bike but long way from comfortable).

The rear triangle of a hardtail is as near as makes no difference uncompressable between the rear axle and the top of the seat tube.

My very firm belief is that steel bikes have a reputation as being springy because they traditionally used a 27.2 post. Ally bikes tend to have larger diameter seatposts as the tubes have a larger diameter to get the required stiffness. The larger the diameter, the harder it is to bend so ally bikes got reputation for being stiff.

Then everyone wanted a bike which was dropper post compatible so even steel bikes such as the Soul went for a fatter seatpost which negated the advantage of steel as far as springyness is concerned. Ride next to someone on a bike with a 27.2 seatpost and see how much it bends – you will be amazed.

Basically the smaller the diameter of seatpost, and the more seatpost is out of the seat tube, the “springyer” the ride. Fat, soft tyres will help as well.

Maybe try a 27.2 post with a shim?

stand up more, let your tyres down a bit.

What Matt says, what pressure are you running in your rear tyre ?

I have a BFe (around 2012 model) I don’t find it harsh at all despite some discussion on here about them being so

Anything feels comfortable after a Chameleon. I got rid of mine as I concluded it would have been an ideal frame if I’d been 10 years younger, and less knackered. 😥 I’ve moved onto steel hardtails instead. Presently running 140mm forks on my P7, and I love it.

If you’re after something less harsh, but still gnaaaarrrrrrrr enough to run big forks, then how about a Stanton Slackline? They’re things of beauty!

Stiff frames go beyond comfort though, tbh comfort was never an issue for me but I got fed up of my mmmbop’s tail bouncing and skipping all over the place with a mind of its own- the ti just smooths that out a little, it has more grip and carries speed a little better on rough ground. But mostly just feels more composed. It’s only like the difference of a few psi, but that’s still pretty useful.

What about the privee shan and it’s flattened seat stays ? Maybe that one is still dropper able and has a compliant rear end?

My Explosif 650b is very comfortable. I went from a variety of steel/Ti/Ali frames to the Explosif and don’t feel beaten up after longer rides. I did wonder whether the QR rear helps over 142/135×12 bolt throughs.

(The Stooge is even more comfortable though 😈 )

i’ve had a succession of steel hardtails and have had a chameleon now for 4 months. it’s not the frame. as above – seatpost and air in your tyre. tubeless may have some bearing too.
if you want a new frame go buy one, but don’t get one on the basis that it’s going to be more comfy ( especially true for any ‘burly’ frame like a BFe ), and steel frames are heavy, stiff old things post CEN.

My Stanton Slackline is definitely springier than my old Kinesis, but it’s nowhere near the difference between getting beaten-up and not.

With a fatter tyre on the back this felt like a soft tail:

Seatpost and rear tyre really transformed the ride.

I do miss the frame 🙁

ahwiles – Member
stand up more, let your tyres down a bit.

^^^ This.

I’ve known a few who’ve said they find their HT harsh, especially on rougher stuff like the odd few roots, and turns out they’re running pressures like 50psi!

Drop to 20 to 30, or lower if tubeless. Depending on weight of course.

Out of the seat, use legs as rear suspension, not your arse. Less rigid suspension on the front, don’t ride with it locked out all the time. If you don’t tend to pump/bob at the front when climbing I feel there’s no need for lock out at all. Never use it myself.

I’d not be looking at a BFe if you want comfort. I didn’t find mine all that comfortable at all, in fact I thought it was pretty harsh and comparible to my old Chameleon. My Slackline felt much springier and less harsh over the same trails.

I never thought my chameleon was that bad (have had three in total) although I though it was harsher than my Orange Sub Zero that cracked.

It’ll be interesting to see what my new Switchback is like with a 30.9mm post and 142×12 rear axle.

456Ti

You can see, never mind feel the ‘compliance’ 🙂

I can see the logic in some of the comments above, but ever since I bought a steel framed Hoo Koo e Koo in preference to Cannondale’s aluminium equivalent back in 1986 I have been quite sure that all other things being equal an aluminium frame is less forgiving than a steel one. There was certainly a huge difference in comfort between my steel Orange P7 and aluminium E2 back in the early 90s and they both had very similar geometry – if anything the E2 seatpost was longer, and I’d have run the same tyres/pressures on both. Both had rigid forks, and I’m sure the E2 ones were stiffer.

I’ve been riding my 853 inbred SS a lot recently, with a long seatpost and a Ti Charge, and it’s very comfortable, as is my Tinbred with an identical setup. I don’t have anything to compare them with, but both are a joy to ride compared to my old Chameleon…

But that’s a silly comparison. For a start, in ’86, there was no butting on aluminium frames. Second there’s a massive difference between aluminium frames, just as there is with steel ones so comparing such a small number and thinking that reflects all of them is just innacurate.

FWIW, I just sold my 853 inbred. Great frame but I wouldn’t say that it was particularly springy. Other steel bikes I’ve ridden have been but they’ve typically been thin tubes and with long seat posts.

Or another example – straight frame swap between a Pace RC303 (fat aluminium) and a steel 456. The Pace was marginally less harsh but then the Pace had a significantly longer seatpost sticking out of it…

Charge skinny Duster is a lovely ride and genuinely ‘see it move’ springy but it isn’t exactly a hardcore hardtail..
My Ti456 is about as good a balance as you’re likely to get – would be even better with a decent carbon post I think (I’m using a Thomson, which is excellent and 100% reliable but pretty stiff).

456Ti

Still very happy with my 456EVOTi 😀

I’d love to be able to run the rear at 20psi but I’m just not smooth enough. Dual-ply Maxxis, at 35-40 psi, tubeless on Flow EX.

nemesis – I’m not sure it’s an entirely silly comparison. I only gave a couple of examples in my previous post, but in my experience over almost three decades I have consistently preferred steel hardtail frames to aluminium. That may be the result of all kinds of biasing factors, but it is my experience. Incidentally my wife just found the same thing looking for a decent (>£600) commuter bike and ended up rejecting aluminium in favour of steel – entirely her own decision, not influenced by me.

I certainly wouldn’t extrapolate from my experience to say that all steel frames are more compliant than all aluminium ones, but when I have compared the bikes that have been on my shortlists that’s what I’ve found. Perhaps it’s just skinny tubes and long seatposts, and if that comes with steel more than with aluminium that could explain it – it’s not necessarily the material used to build the frame, but it might be the kind of frame that gets built from a particular material.

Thanks so far.

I run my chameleon with a reverb so don’t really want to go swapping posts.
I already run a wide as possible rear tyre tubeless with as low psi as I dare.

I’ve come from a background of racing dual slalom/4X so feel pretty confident that I’m using my body the best I can to smooth the ride,

I like the idea of a Stanton Slackline so checked their website.
Then I stumbled across the Switchback. Really like the look of this particularly the geometry.
Anyone got one/tried one?

Keep the ideas coming, I’m sure there are more frames out there from the smaller brands.

Also are there any current MK4 Chameleon owners? Wondered what that’s like compared to the MK3

Matey has a Trek of some kind and it feels like it’s floating along compared to my blunt instrument Commencal Ramones

Comes at a price though. All that compliance and comfort makes it horribly inefficient when pressing on. Nothing in particular but the whole bike just feels

choose carefully

not sure what version my chameleon is. it’s the latest 26″ ( they’re now 27.5 ).
FWIW i previously had an DN6 inbred, 853 inbred ( not significantly different to one another but i would wager the back eds were effectively identical ), orange P7 ( post CEN, weighty bugger ), genesis alpitude 853 with a loooong post, and now the chameleon. i run a tall spesh captain sport tyre at ~ 40psi tubeless, ks lev.
i don’t spend a lot of time in the saddle to be fair as it’s setup SS.

i also found my spesh langster ( ally ) far more comfortable than the on-one pompino i had ( steel ). same diameter but longer seatpost on the langster, narrower and harder tyres though.

there are lots of factors at work, and certainly i could believe that ‘all other things being equal’ there is a difference in compliance and damping characteristics between the materials, but very rarely are all other things equal. wheels, tyres etc were all swapped oer on my hardtails as i changed, so I was able to do quite a reasonable comparison, though the chameleon has gained the dropper in place of the old on-one post i was using.

as i guess the new chameleon rolls on bigger wheels they may be more comfortable. i understand they make the trails come alive however, so this may be counter-productive. 😉

Get a Soul. Souls are ace, and are plenty Hardcore. And they look good, are well made and finished, and come from a company run by a likeable fellow.

it’s not necessarily the material used to build the frame, but it might be the kind of frame that gets built from a particular material.

Yes, that’s probably true to some extent but you could look at steel which covers everything from a noodletech skinny XC frame to a hardcore hardtail designed to take all sorts of abuse and there’ll be nothing in common in how they ride – that’s my point to the OP – don’t look at the material in isolation as it’s unlikely to tell you much about how the bike will ride in itself.

Look for skinny tubes, a long seatpost (and ideally decent tyre clearance) and you’ll stand a reasonable chance of getting some spring in the frame.

Thanks nemesis – I think we’re probably saying different versions of the same thing 🙂

Perhaps it’s all just down to seatposts, which as far as I can tell tend to be skinnier on steel bikes, or at least used to before dropper posts became common (ie when I was last in the market for a new frame)

Probably 😉

Mind you, that Pace I mentioned above had a 31.6 seatpost but with plenty sticking out

I like the idea of a Stanton Slackline so checked their website.
Then I stumbled across the Switchback. Really like the look of this particularly the geometry.
Anyone got one/tried one?

I’ve just swapped my Slacklin for a Switchback, not because of the wheels but to get a frame that actually fits me (I swapped my diddy BFe for a bigger Slackline for mucking about on but have some BFe rediscovered the fun of hardtails so wanted something I could ride properly).

It’s not built up yet as I’m waiting for parts to arrive but I reckon it’ll be a bit harsher than the Slackline due to the bolt thought back end and bigger post (my Slackline was the 853 with a 27.2mm seat tube).

steel Kona in the test with a 27.2 mm seat tube

I have a Salsa El Mar with a 27.2mm seat tube. On the cobbles (which are a feature of local riding) it’s more filling-loosening than the 26″ alloy Cannondale (with 31.8mm SP) it replaced. It does feel utterly bombproof though,

I think a carbon seatpost might help…

My very firm belief is that steel bikes have a reputation as being springy because they traditionally used a 27.2 post. Ally bikes tend to have larger diameter seatposts as the tubes have a larger diameter to get the required stiffness. The larger the diameter, the harder it is to bend so ally bikes got reputation for being stiff.

Then everyone wanted a bike which was dropper post compatible so even steel bikes such as the Soul went for a fatter seatpost which negated the advantage of steel as far as springyness is concerned. Ride next to someone on a bike with a 27.2 seatpost and see how much it bends – you will be amazed

I’m 100% sure this is correct

I won a Al frame with 27.2 post and it no or more or less comfy than the steel bike it replaced. My mate had the same frame with fat post and with both thought it horribly harsh

I’ve ridden a good selection of hard tails over the last 4 years including a 2000 chameleon with the box section chain stays, a 16″ dmr trailstar and a 16″ piglet 2. The chameleon, you’re right, does make you feel beat up after a hour or so of hard riding, i have to agree. The dmr gave me the best feeling of springiness. The piglet 2 is somewhere in between with 2.3 conti barons running 35psi and a joplin dropper, and on the whites trail at afan yesterday it was very impressive. To give the piglet more compliance i’ve tried shimming it with a 27.2 post with 30cm of post exposed and it made a big difference. I’m thinking of selling the piglet 2 if you’re interested.

Finding a steel frame to take your dropper will be the problem, if it’s not 27.2 dia.
A Soul is the obvious answer.
The comments re: 27.2 posts are valid points.
My Niner rides better than any hardtail I’ve tried before.

This

I got an 853 Slackline with 27.2 seatpost and 1 1\8 headtube. Old fashioned and off trend but spot on geo and I love it. Its the future..