Quick Rohloff questions …… Horizontal/track dropouts

I’m planning on builing up a Rohloff hub (that I already have) into a Dually for a Longitude build.

The frame, as you can see, has horizontal/track dropouts and an inboard brake mount.

I currently have a speedbone set up for the hub.

Now …… I know that with horizontal/track dropouts wheel removal is always going to be a faff. I know that.

By the looks of things I have three options ….

1) Use the current set up. The dropouts and brake mounts look long enough and shaped in such a way that the speedbone should still fit as per its intended use. This would require needing to remove/loosen the brake mount to remove the wheel. I could live with that.

2) Use one of the dropout cutouts to secure the axle plate a la the new Surly dropouts:

This would make wheel removal easier providing I could locate the bolt in the cut out under the brake mount.

3) Use one of these:

The dropouts look long enough to to have the stub facing either forward of the axle or behind it. Genesis also confirmed the dropout should be strong enough and not flare.

I’m leaning towards (1) as I already have the bits, would like peoples thoughts on (3) with my fallback being 2.

I know I should just get the frame and experiment with the hub before building it up but that would be too easy!

All help/advice/thoughts are much appreciated.

I don’t think the Speedbone will work with that, it only usually works on frames with the disc mount on the seatstay. You could however use your OEM2 plate with a Monkeybone – that’ll work with that frame.

Or, yes, swap to the OEM1 axle plate – as long as you don’t pull the hub too far back for chain tension it’ll be fine.

Oh, and is yours a solid axle hub? If it’s QR you’ll need tugnuts or something to keep it from slipping forwards on the drive side.

I would go 3. Do you have that piece? I thought you got all the bits with a Rohloff hub. I certainly did. Though I got my hub/wheel second hand so perhaps the original owner bought all the bits separately.

Hubs only usually come with one axle plate – depends which hub you buy which one you get.

I’ve got loads of spare OEM1 axle plates if you want one. Will swap for Jaffa cakes.

Ben – given all of your experience with Rohloffs do you think using a OEM 1 plate would be safe?

It’s a QR hub but I have a Surly tugnut.

Edit >>> These Jaffa cakes you speak of ….. How would you suggest one precedes 😉

I modified a speedbone to sit in front of the on-one track end.

Works a treat, I’ve used it in a 29er and CX. The speedbone transfers torque to the inside face of the on-one trackend piece.

You might be able to fashion a monkeybone with long slot instead. I made my own out of a spare IS adaptor.

As long as the dropouts aren’t paper-thin (doubt it) then it’ll be fine with the OEM1 plate – the only ones I’ve seen spread out are the old-school track dropouts with thin lower prongs – or forward-facing slots.

I’m having exactly the same dilemma with a Van Nicholas Redwood frame which has rear facing slotted dropouts. I have a speedbone on the brake mounts but the gear cable arcs out over the caliper and looks poor. Ben, if you have a spare one of those OEM 1 plates that I could buy or swap with you so I could try this option. I’ve heard the torque is quite high but the dropout is about 8mm thick and made from titanium plate so hopefully it’ll be ‘reet. Could you mail me if you can help

I think you’ll have real problems with dropout length to use the keyed oem plate. You may need to prat about with chainring / sprocket ratios and half links as you will have almost no length to work with.

If you look at my 4th pic, the QR is rammed forward but the axle plate screw heads are right at the back of a reasonably long track end. The torque key is even further backward.

@ Stoner .. The dropouts on your frames above look quite short compared with the Genesis ones.

That said your 4th pic does make me think that, as you say, I might end up faffing with sprokets – which is something I don’t have the money to do!

The OEM dropout slot needs to be at least 35mm long – plus space for adjustment.

I’m not sure how many spares I have, I’ll have a look at the shop tomorrow – defintiely got a couple though.

Thanks Ben.

If I could get an OEM1 plate to work that would be great and ultimately the simplest solution..

Has anyone experience of elongating the slot in the speedbone attachment piece as my frame has a conveniently located hole that I can put a peg in but it’s slightly too close to the dropout. I’ve not explained this well but would need to file the bit that attaches to the hub by about 6mm.(this explanation isn’t getting any clearer is it??)

I used to do something similar on early Rohloff Bromptons. The issue is the shorter it gets, the more force there is on it. So as long as it’s a beefy bolt it’ll be fine.

Right, OEM1 axle plates: I currently have 11 quick release ones and 11 solid axle ones!

I really should do something about my excessive Rohloff spares some time 😉

Ben,

Could I tempt you to part with a QR one so I can experiment?

Sure – email me your address. ben@kinetics.bike

It looks like you’re sorted now, so this may not be relevant, but Rohloff recommend not using a Monkeybone with brake mounts on the chainstay like yours.
Page 59, bottom left.
http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/media/2_Monting_En_2014_06_web.pdf

Graham, Thanks for that. I hadn’t seen that before. Wonder why they say not to?

I wouldn’t say I’m sorted yet rather gathering bits to look at all the options!

The issue is that the OEM tab is sometimes at too shallow an angle for the Monkeybone. I’ve done it by modifying the Monkeybone slightly.

Ah, okay, makes sense.

All options above back on the table!

Ben – Many thanks for the email. Will sort things out at lunchtime.

I think I’ve sorted mine by elongating the slot in the speedbone bracket and putting an allen bolt and nut through the hole in the frame. The allen bolt is quite sturdy, 8mm head. Is it pedalling torque or overrun torque that is being held back by the bracket, not sure I understand why it has to be quite so beefy compared to the no turn washers on alfine hubs.

Just to add my build with rather short track ends on a Scandal, and using a Monkeybone on the chainstays (I hadn’t spotted Rohloff’s comments on that either yet)

No problems yet, and wheel removal is relatively easy (needs removing the QR, but no loosening of the brake caliper required). I am using a Surly Tugnut on the driveside.

The issue is that the OEM tab is sometimes at too shallow an angle for the Monkeybone

I don’t think that’s it, surely the whole assembly is simply rotated around the axle and everything, axle, speedbone/monkeybone and caliper is still in the same relative position to everything else?

Looking at http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/media/ENGLISH_OEM_36_2013.pdf Fig. 12a they clarify it by stating “with vertical dropout slots”.
I take it this is similar to the problem with front disc brakes with the caliper mounted behind the fork leg where the torque reaction of the brake forces the axle downwards, necessitating lawyer lips on the fork dropouts.
With horizontal dropouts, like the Genesis Dually or Sven’s Scandal, it’s not a problem.

not sure I understand why it has to be quite so beefy compared to the no turn washers on alfine hubs

It’s the torque reaction from the low gears and why Rohloff can use a wider range of gears than Shimano.
The chart on page 25 here, http://www.rohloff.de/uploads/media/1_General_use_En_2014_06_web.pdf shows the reaction torque at the axle as 98% of the input torque in the opposite direction.
Imagine trying to apply that much torque with a 10mm spanner, it would soon round off. That’s why it needs an axle plate with a locating peg further from the centre.

MTQG – I think you’re right RE chainstay mounted calipers/monkeybones – it’s not the force on the caliper mount being dramatically different but the resultant force on the axle direction relative to drop out orientation.

I don’t think that’s it, surely the whole assembly is simply rotated around the axle and everything, axle, speedbone/monkeybone and caliper is still in the same relative position to everything else?

The problem isn’t the direction of forces – they’re actually better with backwards-facing dropouts. The problem is with getting the wheel in and out. With vertical dropouts the entry path is from below the Monkeybone, so the prongs of the OEM2 plate can just slide up and over the MB. With rearwards-facing dropouts the entry path is at an angle and the OEM2 plate rotates as you slide the wheel in. So it’s perfectly solid once it’s fitted, you just can’t get the wheel in and out.