That’s a shame, but those frames are a very, very hard sell at those prices.

Having a sour grapes dig at another successful small British manufacturer on FB isn’t a good look either…

A lot of the commenters on the instagram post said that they would be looking for a 29er frame instead. How difficult would it be for the creator of these frames to switch gears and start creating a similar frame but with a bigger wheel size?

My guess is pretty difficult but would be interested to know what that would take from someone more knowledgable.

This is a real shame… I remember meeting one of them, probably Burf, at one of the first kinlochleven enduros, I was having a bit of a grouch about a new tyre I’d just fitted and how I was pretty frustrated at not knowing what it’d do, and he was basically “Yeah I know the feeling, I finished welding this frame yesterday and I’m still not used to it” 🙂 I think that was the first ever Ranger. Really nice guy and obviously the sort of person who gets ridiculously difficult things done just by not quite realising that they’re ridiculous and doing it anyway.

To be honest the range feels a bit confusing, and some feel a little bit left behind- like, the Ranger’s geometry feels pretty conservative now. And the headtube brace is such a signature feature so it always felt weird when they released frames without it, but then that makes you wonder if they could build without it, to simplify designs or just to stop putting off people who don’t like it…

Damn sad to see them go but I can’t honestly say I’d be close to buying anything they make now. And Bury is such a talented guy, it seems like the bikes might be holding him back?

endomick
Free Member

It’s a vanity project rather than a viable one to put it bluntly, if you have to charge that much for a hardtail to make so little you’re doing something wrong, plenty more small businesses struggling and they aren’t shooting themselves in the foot.
If you can’t produce a beautifully crafted handmade in the UK hardtail frame for under a grand, give it up or make some product or production changes.

Rule #1 Mick – I get where you’re coming from but stay classy.

I’ll agree it’s a hard sell at the artisan pricing but can you give any examples of this mythical, hand crafted in the UK sub £1k hardtail frame? A quick look at the competitors shows they start at £1200-1300. Remember there’s no economies of scale with a BTR and I’m fairly sure Burf makes everything except the cable guides.

At this level it’s all about marketing.

It’s doubly frustrating when you see what the SICK! boys did with that brand in a relatively short period of time.

I wish I had a bit of cash I could invest/give to help turn it around as I think with a bit of work there’s a decent small business there.

G

Having a sour grapes dig at another successful small British manufacturer on FB isn’t a good look either…

I spotted that but then they’re all as bad each other in the ‘spouting off online’ department!

That doesn’t explain why Ti and carbon hardtails sell in higher numbers, for higher £££

The answer’s in the question.

Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Just looked at the prices and it’s £1700 for a 120mm hard tail off the peg (no custom geometry ) frame with no stealth dropper routing, bottle cage mounts or anything as they all cost extra.

Simple fact is that it’s too late expensive. And even if it something you can afford you’re probably going to look elsewhere for a longer travel fork frame. You don’t need to pick it apart any more than that really.

Never mind frames – I’m trying to work out if the trail tool is worth having . . .

Simple fact is that it’s too late expensive.

A Curtis equivalent is 1300, so it’s in the ballpark for these sorts of frames. I think it would be a shame to see them go, always admired what they do, but I’ve not the cash to spare to buy one. However, that’s not to say that there isn’t a market for these bikes, there absolutely is. There’s plenty of folk with money who would have one, but that would mean changing BTR into a different sort of company altogether, and I don’t know if that’s the plan.

Unfortunately when I look at a Curtis after seeing a BTR its like looking at how a hardtail should be. BTRs make me think of a solution looking for a problem

A Curtis equivalent is 1300, so it’s in the ballpark for these sorts of frames

30% more expensive isn’t really the same ballpark

I’ll agree it’s a hard sell at the artisan pricing but can you give any examples of this mythical, hand crafted in the UK sub £1k hardtail frame?

18Bikes No9? https://www.18bikes.co.uk/2021-18-bikes-9-frame.html

Having a sour grapes dig at another successful small British manufacturer on FB isn’t a good look either…

I spotted that.

They could be the best frames in the world but it’s £5225 for a Pinner with an EXT shock, internal routing and ISCG tabs. Thats pretty hard to make an argument for buying IMHO.

At this level it’s all about marketing.

Well unfortunately it’s not his strong point. I know 4 people with BTRs, all have a close relationship with Burf (and previously Tam) and only 2 actually paid for their bikes. I can’t remember ever chatting with anyone who was seriously considering buying one.

In my view, there are a few key things:

They’re almost never in the public eye (look what even lukewarm PB reviews have done for Starling)
They are expensive compared to similar bikes
There’s always been a perception that they take 1+ year to get
He’s determined not to make “fashionable” bikes (150/160mm 29ers) – the problem is, those are the ones people buy

The Pinner is a cool bike for sure and I really hope he’s not forced to close. It doesn’t seem like the current business model is working though.

Never mind frames – I’m trying to work out if the trail tool is worth having . . .

definitely!

UK discretionary spending is about to take a huge hit folks.

This, sadly. A lot of people who make amazing, but expensive, products are going to struggle in the face of doubling (or more) energy prices, and the knock-on effect on other household bills, not to mention rising interest rates and increased taxation.

This is a premium, luxury, product, and there are going to be a lot of high-end framebuilders competing over a shrinking group of affluent customers.

militantmandy

He’s determined not to make “fashionable” bikes (150/160mm 29ers) – the problem is, those are the ones people buy

I think that’s one of the biggest issues. The Ranger is designed for a 120mm fork, but this is all the explanation you get – nothing on why they recommend a 120 fork, or why every other brand is wrong in offering long travel. IF you want someone to buy something that’s far from the norm, and spend a huge premium to do so, maybe give them a reason why.

The Ranger is arguably the first ‘enduro’ hardtail, combining the efficiency of a 120mm fork with the rowdiness of its aggressive geometry into probably the most versatile ride of any bike. Many ask if they can use a longer fork on the Ranger, but don’t follow the masses and let the fork travel fool you – the Ranger is tough, and ready for any trail!

They’re almost never in the public eye (look what even lukewarm PB reviews have done for Starling)

This too – Starling have grown loads maybe five years, and are selling lots, despite not being cheap (though not BTR money). They’ve been willing to compromise though, they have some production (swingarms/hardtails) in Taiwan, but do their front triangles in house (think those were in Taiwan for a time too). Am sure they’d like to do it all i house, but they did the sensible thing for cost/time. Stanton too – you can get a cheaper frame, or pay a UK premium.

BTR are around for ten years or more, but they’re still on bike #275. One is a business, the other is more of a hobby

I have a Ranger, so perhaps I’m chiming in with a slightly biased opinion, but it’s the best steel hardtail I’ve had, hands down. Previously had bikes/frames from Orange, Cotic and Stanton (six in total across these brands over approx 8 years). For me having something built to my specification, by a man I can pick up the phone to and discuss the stages of the build, adds something more than walking into a shop and picking something off the shelf.

Many have this attitude towards other products, not just bikes, hence demand/high price for the workmanship. You can buy generic carbon bars for £50, or pay £160 for Hope’s version. Same as their cranks or brakes. There are always pricier/boutique options, many will happily pay a little more for something UK-built and/or something a little more bespoke than what others offer.

There is no denying the base price is expensive, but I’m hoping to keep it for a good few years and using a cost-per-use basis will work out a reasonable outlay in the long run.

Starling have grown loads maybe five years, and are selling lots, despite not being cheap

They are looking increasingly reasonably priced TBH.

Well, probably not the hardtails or the steampunk freeride bikes, but the Murmur and Swoop are.

30% more expensive isn’t really the same ballpark

I don’t think most folks would look at it like that though. If you choose BTR you’ll make sacrifices in the rest of kit to get to your budget, If you choose the Curtis, all of a sudden that extra dosh just gets swallowed by a fancier fork or wheels or whatever. Folks have a frame in mind and a budget for a bike. If you’re looking for a steel H/T that’s a wee bit out of the ordinary, then both BTR or Curtis would be on everyone’s shopping list.

there are going to be a lot of high-end framebuilders competing over a shrinking group of affluent customers.

Tom’s inbox is going to blowing up.

CalamityJames

many will happily pay a little more for something UK-built and/or something a little more bespoke than what others offer.

That the point though, since the price increase, it hasn’t been “many”, it’s been nobody at all

They are undoubtedly fine bikes, but they are not selling for a variety of reasons.

“The Ranger is designed for a 120mm fork, but this is all the explanation you get – nothing on why they recommend a 120 fork, or why every other brand is wrong in offering long travel”

It’s a fairly long time ago now but I started designing my own steel hardtail inspired by the BTR Ranger and my Banshee Spitfire (if I recall correctly I wanted longer chainstays than the BTR and an eccentric BB plus someone I knew said he could get me a one-off prototype cheap from his Taiwanese frame builders). In the end this happened: https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-zero-am-review-warning-bicycle-content/

(TLDR: 130mm fork plus -2 deg headset on the Zero allowed me to test the geometry for minimal effort and cost. 6+ years on I’m still riding the mule!)

Now I’m not a rad rider like every clip I’ve seen from BTR so it may be due to my more sedate pace (I’m not glued to the ground and I’m not that slow but my riding would only impress non-MTBers!) but for my ability level I’ve found more fork travel just works better. I didn’t ever try 120mm but the Zero was gradually increased from 130 to 140 to 150 and now I have a new hardtail frame on the way which will have 29” wheels and a 160mm fork.

So it may be that there’s a mismatch between the (often younger) riders who can shred a short travel hardtail like a Ranger and the riders who have the money to buy one (who are more likely to be my age or older). Actually now I think about it, the quickest/gnarliest riders I know in their 30s/40s/50s all ride full-sus bikes for that kind of riding, though many have hardtails for more XC, dirt jumps, pump tracks etc.

I think Starling were very cheap to begin with and had a great review from Dirt which really helped them. Also a steel single pivot was quite a USP at the time whereas steel hardtails are hardly unique so it’s harder to stand out from the crowd.

dc1988
Full Member

I think Starling were very cheap to begin with and had a great review from Dirt

This review?

Starling Murmur – the steel bike that’s blown us away

£1,500 was without a shock iirc?

I miss Dirt! Steve Jones’ reviews in particular were amazing – either nonsensical gobbledegook or evocative inspired enlightenment and you never knew what you were going to get!

That Starling review seemed to have a huge impact, not just on that one brand but on changing the conversation across MTBers from “NEW MODEL WITH 25% MOAR STIFFNESS!!!” to a better understanding of compliance.

I miss Dirt! Steve Jones’ reviews in particular were amazing – either nonsensical gobbledegook or evocative inspired enlightenment and you never knew what you were going to get!

I could never actually read them, usually they were in 8pt brown font on a yellow background. Still bought the mag though 😀

“ I could never actually read them, usually they were in 8pt brown font on a yellow background.”

And sideways too!

can you give any examples of this mythical, hand crafted in the UK sub £1k hardtail frame?

Fill your boots:

https://www.properpushirons.com/product-page/eponym

I’m not sure I buy the proposition that 1700 quid is in the ballpark of 1700 either!

It’s a shame they’re unable to continue but when they came out they were undoubtedly breaking the mould and at ‘reassuringly expensive’ prices. Now the rest of the world is catching up and they’re charging a lot for a product which for whatever reason is not being valued as highly by the market. So change something or don’t.

Damn. 1700 Vs 1300!

Now the rest of the world is catching up

If they arent offering a 29er then the rest of the world has caught up and disappeared off into the distance

mashr
Full Member

Never mind frames – I’m trying to work out if the trail tool is worth having . . .

It’s good- if you’re going to scratch out a line with one tool, without too much digging, it’s fantastic actually, basically just takes the classic macleod and improves it a bit in that direction. But it’s a bit neither one thing nor t’other and most things it does are compromised. Not heavy enough to really replace an azada or mattock for digging, and the shape and cutouts aren’t ideal for tamping. IMO it could do with a plain head and a bit more substance but it’s still good.

But if you’re going to really dig, you’re much better off with a mattock or rogue hoe. Man I love my rogue hoe, it’s such an effort multiplier/muscle saver. So I’d rather carry 2 tools than use the BTR but it’s definitely got its place.

finbar
Free Member

I could never actually read them, usually they were in 8pt brown font on a yellow background.

As an experiment, I showed my dad Dirt- I think it was a page of mostly blue ink on a pink background- and asked if he could see it OK. He said yeah, no probs. Then it turned out he just couldn’t tell that there was text on those sections at all.

So I emailed Dirt that and Steve told me I was wrong.

For a HT I find 120mm to 140mm to be the sweet spot depending on the rest of the bike. Anything over just seems like it would benefit from some rear suspension as the angles change too much when riding. Just shy of 45 here and prefer HT’s in general. The whole more travel thing has always seemed a bit daft for the majority of UK riding. Each to their own though.

some of the design is explained on the website

Travellers – Why You Can’t Put 160mm Travel Forks On A Ranger

Sixty One Degree – Why The Belter’s “Extreme” Head Angle Is Actually Normal

with leadtimes

Build Queue

and other stuff

FAQ

If they arent offering a 29er then the rest of the world has caught up and disappeared off into the distance

They do, both the Ranger and Chaser.

paton

some of the design is explained on the website

Yeah, was me making that point, I didn’t see those when I was reading about the Ranger.

@speeder, I did say produce not sell, he claims he’s never made a living wage from BTR, so if a frame takes 35hrs ( let’s call it a week) sells for £1700 at least, internal routing, iscg and bottle cage mounts put it closer to £2k, then that suggests after including all his expenses, workshop rent, materials etc, he can’t make the frames for under a grand.