No, there isn’t a sales on, no there’s not a special limited edition or anything like that, this is very mich a ‘use them or lose them’ situation.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CawnM5WsIci/?utm_medium=copy_link

TL:DR, since putting prices up in august last year, to cover costs and pay himself a liveable wage, no one has ordered a BTR, and there’s 6 left in the queue. They aren’t cheap, but the work, knowledge and craftsmanship that go into them are second to none.

To be honest, the only reason I haven’t ordered one is I thought there was an enormous waiting list, and ordered something else (which, somewhat ironically, is now taking a LOT longer than anticipated). The bikes look, to my eyes, lovely, and are strong as hell, and it would be a crying shame to lose them.

So to reiterate, I’d you were umming and ahhing, for a milestone birthday or just a really nice treat, now is the time!

I really hope sales pick up for him. Tough times ahead for many people trying to produce solid product in the UK.

I’d buy a Pinner tomorrow if I had the money, didn’t get industry deals and they were still available! I’ve always liked what BTR do and their honesty in their Social Media posts is pretty refreshing.
I just looked on their website and the Chaser frame never seems to get a mention, as I guess people want the ‘enduro’ image. But it looks like a well thought out ‘do everything in reason’ type bike. No head tube brace either for for me is a bonus.

Way to stay classy.

Ukrainian farmers have been pinching broken down Russian military vehicles, one of which is a BTR or Bronetransportyor. Apparently the Ukrainian president has said (with dark humour) there won’t be any income tax on any stolen Russian hardware if these end up on eBay. Pretty classy from the farmers and the president IMO.

Would love a Ranger frame but £1760 is far to much when I can have a Solaris Max for well under half that. I hope they continue as I really like what BTR do but they’re well out of my price range.

Dim and tasteless comment.

you realise the Ukraine farmers are taking the Russian ones for scrap.

And what the **** does that have to do with a bike company struggling to make things work?

For the avoidance of doubt – tom’s post was about BTR Fabrications who make bike frames; you, either through stupidity or a failed attempt to be humorous, are referring to a russian armoured personnel carrier.
Are you clear?

Lovely looking frames but unfortunately out of my price range even if I was looking. Hope they can make it workout and get the order book filled up.

Threads pretty much dead now for discussion about the actual subject!

Will try though, it’s a shame to see a company going to the wall, but the market is pretty small for those frames, and the competition is pretty high, not much anyone can do, a few more orders won’t fix the problem, which is how the margin is so low in such a high priced frames, knowing the markets to work in and having a programme to maintain some way of continuing to generate income.

1700 notes for a hardtail frame…

I have absolute sympathy for what he wants to do and he wants to make a living while in the uk but if thats what its costs to buy one and he isn’t getting orders it doesn’t seem like a viable business. You can literally go out and buy complete bikes that will do everythign it does for that value with wheels and everything.

To be clear I am not saying its to expensive for what it is if its hand made, I’m not saying its a bad frame or anything like that, I even think they look ace.

But number of people who will spend that is pretty small and there are other options to comete with at that prce point including other smaller brands.

1700 notes for a hardtail frame

Plenty of mass produced road bike frames are easily twice that. And they sell by the truckload

1700 quid?

No.

Plenty of mass produced road bike frames are easily twice that. And they sell by the truckload

And I can think of at least one UK builder who will do you a decent steel HT in any colour you like for under 1k.

An insight into what BTR Fab and Burf is all about

They’re maybe not helped by being slightly odd compared to their competitors, like the Ranger being their “Enduro’ frame but designed for a 120mm fork (Can you even buy a 120 fork thats suitable?), and the Chaser pegged as “Trail” with 100mm. Add that to the fact that the Ranger is 1780 (bottle bolts and dropper routing are extra cost), and they’re a hard sell, that’s a massive premium over other similar bikes, edging close to three times the cost of something like a BFeMax.

You’ve got to really want what BTR are selling to pay the extra, and they’re very niche as a result. Look at 18 Bikes, their 853 UK made frame is a whole SolarisMax cheaper. I spent decent money on a hardtail recently, I did consider a BTR, but they just weren’t an option for me, for the reasons above.

I appreciate they’re hand made, high quality, etc but maybe there’s a compromise to be made to broaden their appeal so that they cans sell more.

Plenty of mass produced road bike frames are easily twice that. And they sell by the truckload

Oh! I didn’t realise BTR did road frames too… in that case the business case for a crazy expensive mountain bike istotally there and i take it all back.

1700 is alot of money, not just a bit spendy but full on a major expense, you’re talking a months paypacket for the average salary in the uk, its more than the average utility bills for a year. or 10 months of running a car.

Its an expensive product, its irrelevant if there are more expensive ones. If his order books are empty his business isn’t viable either throgh no market or poor marketing.

I’d love for that not to be the case but even if 100 people stepped up and ordered right now having been umming and ahing for years whats he gonna make out of that £170000 and where are the next 100 going to come from?

Oh! I didn’t realise BTR did road frames too… in that case the business case for a crazy expensive mountain bike istotally there and i take it all back.

What I meant was, neither frames are necessities, yet one that’s mass produced & twice the price sell loads, and the cheaper, hand made, highly regarded frame hasn’t had a single order in 6 months.

I know what you meant i was being wide sorry, but think how many people know what a Cervelo is, when was the last time you saw a world champion dusting the competition on a BTR.

All i ride is steel hardtails or rigid bike but how many people want that when they can get a full boingy bike frame for that.

I’ve followed BTR since the early days of the Dirt review of the Belter – they used to work out of (and one of them slept in!) a shed not far from me and an early video was shot on my local trails.

Some years back I went around the ATC loudspeaker factory, partly hoping to learn a lot about how to run my own better. I came away with one main thought: Incredibly expensive though most ATC speakers are, once I saw how complex the manufacturing processes were I was surprised they could sell them for that “little”.

And with the BTR frames, seeing their processes via Instagram etc, it feels the same – the extra head tube brace, the chainring notch on the chainstay, etc, those details add complexity that other frames don’t have – and although I haven’t looked at other boutique builders’ processes I’d bet that few of them are going to such lengths with tube prep etc.

The other issue is that they’ve historically been more oriented towards smaller wheels and particularly to shorter forks – and their reasoning is sound but it’s not easy to get forks that short which match their gnarlier intentions.

It really is hard to make a living making stuff here but I’d argue that it’s easier with a small team than solo because you can get a lot of efficiency advantages and spread overheads across more output.

If I were in Burf’s position I’d be looking at getting similar frames made with one of the best Taiwanese builders, maybe as a part-time thing, and then aiming in the longterm to offer a small amount of custom frames that he builds if the production frames are making enough money. He might also be able to offer part-builds with forks etc sourced from the OEM Taiwan end.

It’s hard, I hope it works out ok for his life even if that means BTR ends in its current (or any) form.

Shame, look really nice.

I think people hand building like this need to raise prices to justify R&D / low volume sales.

If this was hifi the markup would be 10x production costs, sold as artisan, with some magic tech justification for price. They would only sell a few items a year but it would fund a passion business.

Far to spendy for me! Like what they’re doing but they’re only for dentists or someone that really wants to be different. Never gonna sell many.

@OP, I get where you’re coming from, but as one of the very rare folk in a position to potentially buy one of these frames, is it telling that you didn’t even call to check the wait time before choosing something else? Maybe they just aren’t appealing enough.

At the time I bought my frame, end of October, he still would have had a long lead time, he’s posted up about them on Instagram before, always 6-8 months, I had no reason to think otherwise, maybe a lesson there. My patience for long lead times is still there, good things come to those that wait etc, but a couple of things that have taken north of 2 years after a promise of x months has maybe made me a little gun shy.

Sounds like my bathroom fitter :-/ . I’m sure whatever you’ve gone for will be worth it.

Sadly I wouldn’t have thought with the nerviness Putin is causing, many folk at all will be dropping much on custom frames for the next few months.

I’ve looked at them a few times, but I’ve always thought they looked a bit ugly with that huge brace behind the head tube and have always gravitated towards a Curtis (that’s my dream bike) as they look nicer. Both are local to me and costly but I’ve just felt the BTRs aren’t as pretty (the Chaser looks nice)

Interesting comment from Burf on their Facebook about each frame order taking about 35 hours from consultation through build to shipping. That’s such a long time!

Yeah, that’s a bit of time for one frame to be manufactured, you’d think they’d have the tubing pretty much ready, jigs ready and welding one up wouldn’t be more than a two to four hours, then racked off, inspected and sent for painting.

Hopefully they can get their order book up though, always nice to have UK made engineering, or maybe they might be able to diversify a little if they have the machinery and welding ability, i’ve seen this work for companies in the past, bringing in batch jobs for other industries to manufacture kit to print, which might allow a little bit of flex in continuing the bike building.

after all the wind blown trees maybe he should fill his books with the trail tools he used to build?

I suppose we’re mostly armchair experts here (I know I’ve never run a business, let alone something as niche as an MTB frame building company) but it is sadly the case that lots of premium, niche companies, in all sorts of sectors are going to go under in the next few years; UK discretionary spending is about to take a huge hit folks.

Consumer belts are going to be tightening over the coming months, and while I don’t doubt BTR frames are worth the asking price for the man hours, materials and expertise, they simply might just not be viable any longer.

We’re not poor and I could (theoretically) afford a BTR but The “Frank discussion” that would follow if I told* the missus I was buying a Belter frame, how much it costs, that I’d be needing at least the same amount on top to finish the build, and that it’s only really intended for riding down hills, just isn’t worth the hassle. Not when she’s already convinced half our income is destined to go to the energy suppliers. I doubt I’m unique in this assessment…

*(I’m under no illusions)

A call to arms for us to go and buy very pricey bikes, just to keep two people in work at the same time as the average cost of living is about to go up significantly is sort of missing the point (IMO), it’s a business not a charity.

35 hours doesn’t sound that long compared to buying a Marino bike. LoL

I doubt I’m unique in this assessment…

You’re not. Things are about to get very tight around here.

I like BTR and I hope he can find a way to do what he wants to do. It sounds like he needs a way to move more/cheaper products to move some cash and cut down the time it takes to work on the big projects.

Unfortunately, posh bikes are off the menu for me for the foreseeable future.

It’s a vanity project rather than a viable one to put it bluntly, if you have to charge that much for a hardtail to make so little you’re doing something wrong, plenty more small businesses struggling and they aren’t shooting themselves in the foot.
If you can’t produce a beautifully crafted handmade in the UK hardtail frame for under a grand, give it up or make some product or production changes.

I’ve been lusting after a pinner for years but bought a full new RocketMax for the price of a pinner frame last year.
No way with my current situation could I justify a btr, as much as a tried, if things changed and I won the lottery it would be one of my first buys.
I think the way he does things there is almost unique (if not fully unique) to Burf and it would be a huge shame to not have that passion making bikes.

I’d been after a Ranger since I first saw one in Dirt YEARS ago. Took 14 months from order to delivery, but it’s gorgeous. Only just finished building it, but roll on the weekend.

Long lead times are just a huge issue in niche markets, you’re basically pushing the small number of customers to competitors when telling them that it’s over a year to getting the bike, it’s a struggle though, as you want an order book, but you want quicker turnaround, hence why other products can help, or sub-contracts for other products in the area.

I’d love one but just can’t afford it, always had a soft spot for slightly odd steel hardtails.

If you can’t produce a beautifully crafted handmade in the UK hardtail frame for under a grand…

That doesn’t explain why Ti and carbon hardtails sell in higher numbers, for higher £££. I know steel is cheaper, but at this end of the market, the cost per kg of raw materials is immaterial. What people are looking for is a ride feel, a look, the craftspersonship or an X factor that isn’t on a balance sheet. Are Yeti struggling to sell their mass produced £1700 carbon hardtail?

Last I saw he had a pair of Pinner linkages going spare so two more could be built, dunno if anyone has taken him up on them.

I’m not sure if he’s giving up or just being realistic about having a wage. He’s poured a lot of time and money into Cindy (the CNC machine) over the last year so may yet find a revenue stream from that. Most of all though it’s been supply issues that’s been the issue, whether that’s tubing or trail tool handles.

It’s a vanity project rather than a viable one to put it bluntly

I think that’s a bit harsh TBH, they’ve been going for about a decade, so it’s not like they became unviable overnight.

When they first started up their frames were about £5-600ish (IIRC), expensive at the time but not unheard of.

I remember watching a younger Burf racing DH, he was/is a talented rider who wanted to make (actually fabricate, not just import from SE Asia) a quality product that he cares about, I don’t think that’s vanity. BTR is certainly no ‘Sick bikes’. Unfortunately the UK isn’t a good place to actually make things anymore.

The real nub of it is simply that Brexit + Covid + escalating costs = death to small businesses.

They have my admiration, but sadly I can’t really justify giving them my money…