“This, for example I think of as a great portrait, and so I would probably be influenced by it when deciding what I think is a great portrait photograph.”

What about this one?

clodhopper – Member

£800? Let’s put that into a bit of perspective. So you’ve got an entire day at the wedding itself. Then however many hours spent uploading, selecting and editing images. That’s easily at least another day, maybe two. Then there’s the photographer’s overheads; travel etc expenses, insurance, consideration of cost of equipment, etc. £800 is absolute peanuts.

First of all, why have you chopped what I said up & stuck two separate scenario’s together….? My brother paid substantially more than £800, but you seem to have lumped that into a different scenario I was explaining about a friend’s wedding……?? Either way the outcome from the professional was unsatisfactory to the customer (which was/is my point that ‘professional’ doesn’t guarantee ‘not mediocre’)….

It was £800 around a decade ago…..and it wasn’t the entire day. It was the ceremony & shots afterwards up to the point that everyone went to the reception – so all in all about 3-4hrs absolute max shooting time.

How long to upload, edit and select images??!! A day or two!! WHAT!? As I said previously, surely someone who does this for a living should have the camera & settings dialled in such that the amount of editing is kept to a bare minimum & is done in a batch manner as much as possible based on conditions on the day. I doubt he went through every image & gave it the full ‘processing’ treatment. The customer shouldn’t have to pay for the professional’s inefficient methods….

Anyway – regardless – you seem to be missing the point that this bloke was supposedly a professional photographer yet even with all this ‘time’ he spent on the shoot, all the post-processing, the cost of equipment, the overheads, the insurance blah blah…….he managed to do a less satisfactory job than I managed to do with my new to me D80 & a kit lens…..with no formal training, no overheads, very little post processing & £35 worth of Photobox Photobook…..

The point I was making was that ‘professional’ doesn’t mean the output won’t be mediocre, which is I thought geetee was alluding to…..(and he has since replied to)…..

Conversely to the examples I listed above the wedding photographer that we used listened to what we wanted, took us through all of the options and explained how he would operate on the day (so we knew what to expect/who his assistant would be etc.), took us through the options for albums etc. so we had a clear idea of what we would pay. On the day he was friendly and polite, put everyone at ease & made sure that he took up as little of our time as possible. he had a clear idea of what he was hoping to achieve with his photo’s and he did this well.
Don’t get me wrong, I have seen better wedding photos but they are very good & for the money we paid I am very happy with them. They are a great reminder of the event & he managed to capture the formal stuff/the informal stuff/the details just as we wanted. He cost a bit more than £800, but less than my brother paid & the output was substantially better….

So in a very long winded way, I am no way belittling the work of professionals or bemoaning the cost involved in getting professional photos done. But, I am saying that just because you employ a ‘professional’ it doesn’t mean you are assured of a good result….

Interesting example, clodhopper – a picture of a family member that communicates with those outside the family …

Has she got a carrier bag on her head…..?

In your opinion DrJ, what does it communicate?

I like it quite a lot myself. The way she’s looking through the camera, the differing dark tones and the enigmatic expression. I’d like it more if there wasn’t some colour noise in the shadows though.

Oh, and the comparison between the whiteness of her skin and the white of the plastic bag too 😀

No. I’m a studio photographer, unless your wedding pics are going in Hello or Harpers they have no value beyond whatever the family and friends attribute to them.

Well that was exactly my point. The family concerned doesn’t ‘value’ the work, for whatever reason. My argument wasn’t about value, it was about demands of the job. A studio is a controlled environment, a wedding is not. If you had to produce images of a wedding to the same level as a studio, it would be a whole order of magnitude more difficult.

But of course you mostly don’t need to, hence it rarely happens.

The images I produce in the studio help people sell stuff to make money, that’s why I’m paid more than a wedding photographer, that and the fact an amateur will struggle to get close to what I produce.

Absolutely and given that I’ve had some experience recently of working, under guidance of a pro, with sophisticated studio lighting, I really (really) understand just how difficult it is. I always suspected I knew how hard it is, but now I really do understand.

That said I rarely look at a John Lewis catalogue and feel moved to do anything whereas when I look at the work of some of my favourite portrait and documentary photographers, I sometimes find myself moved so much I have tears in my eyes.

What about this one?

I love that picture – it was on the short list of the Taylor Wessing wasn’t it?

And yes she has a bag on her head; it’s after Van Eyck

geetee1972 – Member

That said I rarely look at a John Lewis catalogue and feel moved to do anything

I don’t believe you. Just look at the composition, the balance, the lighting…..! Breathtaking!
Makes me want to put some Queen on & do the hoovering Dysoning….!!

😀 😉

No. I’m a studio photographer, unless your wedding pics are going in Hello or Harpers they have no value beyond whatever the family and friends attribute to them.
The images I produce in the studio help people sell stuff to make money, that’s why I’m paid more than a wedding photographer, that and the fact an amateur will struggle to get close to what I produce.

At last someone in the business that understands. This is exactly it, those pictures have a value to the customer. They help them sell a product. Some pictures however, no matter how technically brilliant they are, just don’t have any value to the customer.

Its like saying my Dad doesn’t understand the value of the latest Metalica album. They have spent years learning to play that well have spent loads of money on studio time and equipment. So he must be a fool for not realising that and buying it. Its of no value to him !!!

I don’t believe you. Just look at the composition, the balance, the lighting…..! Breathtaking!
Makes me want to put some Queen on & do the hoovering Dysoning….!!

Thats not a photograph, but you knew that , right?

trailwagger

Thats not a photograph,

So?

So?

So it’s easy to make that image look like it does. Whereas if you were to try and create a photograph of that product, that looks just like that, it would be extremely hard.

geetee1972 – Member

So it’s easy to make that image look like it does.

Please, explain the process to me as you understand it.

I love that picture – it was on the short list of the Taylor Wessing wasn’t it?

Yes – now you mention it, I think it was. I also saw it in a collection with others in the same series so you see it as part of a series of pictures of one person (his daughter).

The light and colour in all his pictures are amazing.

Putting on my ‘pseud’s corner’ hat, what it communicates, for me, is something about a mutual trust (you want me to wear a bag? won’t I look stupid?) and affection; that the girl is vulnerable but protected.

@JimJam
1 – Put model* in to whitebox environment in raytracing package
2 – Apply materials [only if not imoprted with model, which is unlikely]
3 – Position/mess with the lighting in the scene
4 – Press render.
5 – Do something else while it renders, preferably STW.

1-4 Should take you a couple of hours, tops. *Assuming the solid model is already made as the thing is probably scheduled/in production when you are going to make an advertising render like that.

As you can see the motor and impeller in a cut away, I am guessing that Dyson picture is rendered straight from CAD.

Please, explain the process to me as you understand it.

OK I guess ‘easy’ was the wrong word. It takes a lot of skill to make a computer rendering of that quality. It’s a different set of challenges though.

Lighting a product to look like it does in that image (if that were a real thing rather than computer generated), is very difficult and requires a whole other skill set.

I’m not convinced Hendrik Kerstens gives away free session vouchers.

Just sounds like a shitty gift voucher that does no favours to pretty much everyone involved in the transaction – the giver, who doesn’t think that £50 essentially gives the family the chance to sit in the same room as the photographer for an hour, the receiver, who also doesn’t realise this, and the photographer, who knows that he’s relying on the hard sell to a surprised punter to make any money at all.

The only winner is the firm that sells the voucher, who get fifty quid for pretty much sod all.

In a nutshell.

trailwagger – Member

Thats not a photograph, but you knew that , right?

If you’re telling me what I think you’re telling me……does this mean that the Dyson I’ve just bought doesn’t come with genuine X-sectional motor functionality….

GODDAMN IT!!!

Yeah. Easy to get that effect in a computer though. Just pressing buttons isn’t it….?

Just pressing buttons isn’t it….?

That’s what people say about my wife’s job (she’s an airline pilot).

I am no way belittling the work of professionals or bemoaning the cost involved in getting professional photos done. But, I am saying that just because you employ a ‘professional’ it doesn’t mean you are assured of a good result….

The same is true of any profession though, isn’t it. I work with a bunch of ‘engineers,’ some of them know more than I could ever hope to learn, some of them I wouldn’t trust to tie their own shoelaces without supervision. Or for a more commonplace example, GPs. They’re all “professionals” but there’s a gulf of experience and ability between some of them.

Surely straightforward rather than easy.
Anyway what were these photos that the photographer felt s/he had the ability to blackmail?

“Anyway what were these photos that the photographer felt s/he had the ability to blackmail?”

White background, people in front of it.

Pfft! That’ll never catch on

Cougar – Moderator

The same is true of any profession though, isn’t it.

It’s almost like someone said the same thing about 4hrs ago!

I would quote it, but the forum is running so badly on my computer that I have given up and swapped to my phone…(see website lagging thread for more details)

Mark my words, in the future camera technology will develop to the point where photographs can be taken of people outside, doing stuff they enjoy. That day cannot be far off.

“It was £800 around a decade ago…..and it wasn’t the entire day. It was the ceremony & shots afterwards up to the point that everyone went to the reception – so all in all about 3-4hrs absolute max shooting time.

How long to upload, edit and select images??!! A day or two!! WHAT!? As I said previously, surely someone who does this for a living should have the camera & settings dialled in such that the amount of editing is kept to a bare minimum & is done in a batch manner as much as possible based on conditions on the day. I doubt he went through every image & gave it the full ‘processing’ treatment. The customer shouldn’t have to pay for the professional’s inefficient methods….”

All this has already been explained. If you can’t be bothered to read and try to understand, there’s little point in trying to explain it all again.

“Anyway – regardless – you seem to be missing the point that this bloke was supposedly a professional photographer yet even with all this ‘time’ he spent on the shoot, all the post-processing, the cost of equipment, the overheads, the insurance blah blah…….he managed to do a less satisfactory job than I managed to do with my new to me D80 & a kit lens…..with no formal training, no overheads, very little post processing & £35 worth of Photobox Photobook…..”

Woud be nice to hear his side of things, and see the respective photos, to make an objective judgment…

“The point I was making was that ‘professional’ doesn’t mean the output won’t be mediocre, which is I thought geetee was alluding to…..(and he has since replied to)…..”

No-one’s arguing against this. 😕

“Would be nice to hear his side of things, and see the respective photos, to make an objective judgment…”

An objective judgement of something subjective….

Remind me, from an objective standpoint, what is the best piece of music ever?

Remind me, from an objective standpoint, what is the best piece of music ever?

Eeer, this I think.

clodhopper – Member

…and see the respective photos, to make an objective judgment…

An objective judgment of the pics is irrelevant.
He was being paid to shoot pics for my mates wedding. I was not being paid & was there in an amateur/hobby/bloke with camera capacity.

My mate & his wife didn’t like the pics that the professional (he’d paid to take pics) had taken as much as the ones that I had. End of. You can cast your objective eye over the pics as much of you want, but the fact is that the photo’s I took reflect their wedding TO THEM more clearly than the ones that the ‘professional’ took.

So, you looking critically at composition, lighting, balance, rule of thirds, Fibonacci sequences, mystic runes or any other arty stuff is absolutely & totally irrelevant.

To be honest I thought my photos were OK, but could pic holes in them left, right & centre if I wanted to. But again, that is irrelevant. They prefer them, & that is what matters…..

C’mon STW – stay cheerful, don’t let me down 🙂

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbaWRnqjMzs[/video]

My mate & his wife didn’t like the pics that the professional (he’d paid to take pics) had taken as much as the ones that I had. End of. You can cast your objective eye over the pics as much of you want, but the fact is that the photo’s I took reflect their wedding TO THEM more clearly than the ones that the ‘professional’ took.

Or he was just being a good mate. 😉

Ashley COle sent me a photograph. I didn’t like it one little bit.

EDIT – maybe not

We come back to where this thread diverted away from discussing the business model. Maybe stumpy’s mate prefers his pics because they have more of a sense of being there rather than just the standard formal wedding photos. Of course a good wedding photographer might get some of that as well, and stumpy was doubtless piggybacking on the paid photographer setting up shots. But the point is that most ordinary people are more interested in the content than the technical excellence. I think some are also missing the point of the dad photo – it’s not just that it’s his dad, it’s his dad somewhere with good memories – better than a posed photo just for the sake of a photo however technically excellent.

The point being that the amateur in the right place can get photos the pro never will, which might be more valuable to the “customer” than a posed studio shoot ever will be. If they can also do technical stuff well then so much the better. The days of needing a pro to get a quality photo are long gone – who cares if the pro would have done a better job, they weren’t there.

…many years ago I remember going to a wedding where everyone got given a disposable camera for those spirit of the event shots. Don’t think I’ve been to one since camera phones became ubiquitous – I presume nowadays lots of people take pics at weddings anyway and share them?

people are more interested in the content than the technical excellence.

Sorry but they are the same thing. Getting good content is what you pay a pro-photographer for, whether it’s for a studio or a wedding shoot.

Last wingding I went to had disposable cameras – ’twas fun 🙂