Your council has contractually agreed to provide a free drop-off service to residents, which it is doing.

On top of this you paid for an additional collection service for green waste which they seemingly failed to honour, so are in breach of contract if so. If I’m reading your post correctly they subcontracted the work and got let down, is that right?

With the local council I both lived under and worked for, you required a permit in order to use your van to unload waste – which sounds like your actual beef here – and this was something which was readily available for a nominal admin fee. Your local council may differ of course, councils tend to, but at Hyndburn it was little more than a declaration saying “I have a vehicle that meets your definition of ‘van’ but I am not working in the trade, here’s fifteen quid, give me a sticker please.” Or, of course, paying for actual trade disposal if you weren’t residential.

Under the same council my area didn’t have a regular green waste service (there’s not much call for it on a 1900s terrace). You could have a green collection but it was an annual fee, I guess not dissimilar to the scenario you describe. It wasn’t worth it for me, I had a hedge which needed a green collection but not fortnightly. Over the years I took bin bags to the tip in the car (sorry, the CAR), topped up the general waste bin with loose clippings, or just left black bags out next to the regular wheelie bin.

This is our free rag

Doesn’t surprise me. I said this already, if you make it awkward for people to recycle then they’ll go “**** it” and act like animals.

Your council has contractually agreed to provide a free drop-off service to residents, which it is doing.

No the council (as a council) has a obligation to provide a defined waste service that they have subcontracted.
They have added optional components .. they are not obligated to provide with the same contractor. (Garden waste)

The real point is the former council had a anti-anti-pro-car stance. (Deliberate double negative)
By that I mean their policies were pro-car and making car ownership as necessary as possible. (From public transport to waste to supermarket placement and parking to bike lanes) – To put this simply the answer to every question on “how people get somewhere” was “a car” and optimising the services around that.

On top of this you paid for an additional collection service for green waste which they seemingly failed to honour, so are in breach of contract if so. If I’m reading your post correctly they subcontracted the work and got let down, is that right?

Parts of the council (Exec, portfolio manager and head of legal) without consultation “negotiated” a contract that involved handing over the council owned waste management facilities to a private company control. The contract was signed under delegated authority by the head of legal (i.e. non elected official)

This contract is underwritten by AMEY and has KPI’s and performance penalties and a requirement the contractor does due diligence. The contract also cedes control to the contractor allowing it to prevent any other waste management company performing a competitive service.

We the residents/council tax payers were neither consulted nor given a choice on anything except the optional garden waste component.
Most importantly we did not get to see the contract either the one between the council and contractor OR the contract between ourselves and the contractor. Very specifically we didn’t get to see the clauses saying if the subcontractor failed to honour the contract with the consumer then the council would be the beneficiary of £75 (just checked) per missed bin collection. (It’s actually 3hrs of “admin time” which is defined at £25/hr)

If I’m reading your post correctly they subcontracted the work and got let down, is that right?

They subcontracted work and when let down failed to implement the penalties designed on the face of it to make the contractor meet their obligations then lied through their teeth saying everyone could use the recycling centre for free and that the contractor’s issues were “not having enough drivers”**.

(** despite the due diligence etc. they didn’t have enough HGV drivers.. however nothing stopped them using Class C1 and for what they should have been fined in penalties they could have bought a entire fleet and then some) erm yep it will cost their parent company millions but that’s the cost of privatising.)

With the local council I both lived under and worked for, you required a permit in order to use your van to unload waste – which sounds like your actual beef here – and this was something which was readily available for a nominal admin fee.

A nominal FEE is not FREE …. which is what the portfolio holder was claiming but that aside once you have the permit there is a huge list of excluded items that don’t apply to cars and a further list of “commercial contracts only” that don’t apply to cars so it isn’t simply a case of stumping up a £15 admin fee but then a pay-per-use at exorbitant rates.

These pay per use quantities were commercial units (e.g. tonnes)… so one wooden fence post or 1 tonne (whatever the chargeable units were) the list has gone with the new council but everything was quantities noone could get to without knocking a whole house down and then rebuilding.

According to several companies we tried to get to do a private contract so punitive they couldn’t do a private contract in our borough even though they operate in the area. When I say “we” I’m including 3 people who are councillors today after the previous admin was absolutely destroyed in the last elections. (of all the wards for election the Tory’s lost all of them and only retain wards not up in the rotation system)

Over the years I took bin bags to the tip in the car (sorry, the CAR), topped up the general waste bin with loose clippings, or just left black bags out next to the regular wheelie bin.

All but the former will get you fined by the contractor and indeed whilst they were not running the green waste service they were fining the very people paying for it for putting garden waste in the black bin.

Anyway, the main point is public services shouldn’t be designed to exclude or disadvantage people that don’t have a car. (With obvious exceptions like a council run MOT place)

In the same way people can choose not to have a phone, internet or a computer and/or not use it for certain things and public services shouldn’t assume everyone has or feels comfortable to use it.

I had to constantly tell our neighbourhood plan forum (as defined) that internet only consultation wasn’t representative (especially in our ward). Just because its easier doesn’t make it a consultation if people are excluded… and might as well be “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

Non optional services (gas, electric, banks) should equally fall into this category.

No idea if I have said anything here before but I thought I would chuck a bit in.
From the previous page ” cheap smart phone”
Where? 50 quid aint cheap for those who don’t want the thing. Then you need coverage. None here. Then you need all that fuss with passwords . Cash is easier for me. Don’t have to worry about the loss or inconvienince. Just shove a fiver in my pocket or the seat post and all is good.
Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm

Just dealing with an old boy who has requested payment by cheque FFS!

You can write a cheque on any piece of paper – a cheque is just an IOU with your bank details on it.

50 quid aint cheap for those who don’t want the thing

Your choice but you’ll be excluding yourself from lots moving forward, opting out is going to become less of an option. Personally I’m not happy paying for a car I don’t want either but hey hi can’t walk or ride everywhere.

do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems

No, but I don’t have 100% in anything, including the authenticity of bank notes in my wallet. You don’t need reception to use contactless payment via a phone.

Passwords, plenty of options for remembering passwords these days, so not a real reason not to embrace the future.

Cash is easier for me.

It’s easier than the fiction you’re arguing against, certainly. NFC payment on phones is the same as contactless debit cards. Neither require mobile coverage or passwords.

Though of course, security isn’t inherently bad. If you lose a wallet full of cash that you somehow don’t have to worry about losing(?) then you have no further protection either against it being spent or in tracing and recouping the loss afterwards. If I lose my card and someone goes on a spending spree then I can reclaim it; in fact, this happened once, I lost my card and didn’t realise until I made a phone payment, my bank stopped it because the two transactions were too far apart geographically to be plausible. The fraudulent transactions were refunded on the spot. Cash would have been long gone.

Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm

Presumably you keep your life savings under the mattress?

You can write a cheque on any piece of paper – a cheque is just an IOU with your bank details on it.

It doesn’t even have to be paper. I used to work in a building that did the cheque clearing and someone protesting about the Torness Nuclear Reactor paid their fine on a coffin!

do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems

Do you think that each cashpoint has a little box with your name on it inside into which your pay is deposited by your employer every month?

Our cash systems are heavily dependent on IT systems….

Up in that there London for a couple of days.
Shopkeepers looking at you all funny when you pull cash out instead of a card.
Was stood in the queue for some noodles. Guy up front only had cash and they wouldn’t accept it, only card payments. How ridiculous.
I was ready to take his cash and buy it on my card, but the guy in front did it instead.

Meanwhile,

Old people, cash in socks and burglaries

Our cash systems are heavily dependent on IT systems….

Only at the point of withdrawal/ deposit though – that’s kinda the point of one of the advantages of cash, once you have it out of the bank it doesn’t rely on other systems.

Only at the point of withdrawal/ deposit though – that’s kinda the point of one of the advantages of cash, once you have it out of the bank it doesn’t rely on other systems.

With none of the protection of those systems either.

Sorry Steve, I wasn’t ignoring you.

To put this simply the answer to every question on “how people get somewhere” was “a car” and optimising the services around that.

It makes sense to optimise services around the most common forms of travel though, doesn’t it? Whilst say a massive cycling infrastructure investment might be great for us, it’s a waste of money if there’s three people in the borough who own bikes. And then of course you’d have the reverse side of the coin, everyone in cars (ie, likely the majority) whining about the council building cycle lanes rather than filling in potholes.

Am I misremembering or is this BwDBC you’re talking about? (That’s who I worked for, I was mistaken when I said Hyndburn earlier.)

Parts of the council (Exec, portfolio manager and head of legal) without consultation “negotiated” a contract [etc]

Most importantly we did not get to see the contract [etc]

Well… so what? What business is that of the residents? What’s important is that they provide the service they’ve agreed to provide, how they provide it isn’t your concern. No? Failing to meet obligations is a problem the council needs to address.

Anyway, the main point is public services shouldn’t be designed to exclude or disadvantage people that don’t have a car. (With obvious exceptions like a council run MOT place)

So what would you propose instead?

Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm

I’ve worked on these and yes I do. I’m pretty sure I’ve lost more money as cash than I have in electronic transfers. Much more.

A cashless society has me worried on a few levels.

1. The sheer controls the bank(s) will have.
2. It can be tied easily into social credit where the government (like they already do in China) can restrict funds or travel if you don’t ‘tow the line’. Incidentally, our new PM is a big fan of this idea.
3. When the cashless system is invariably attacked by a nefarious party and is brought down….then what?
4. Losing perspective as to how much you can spend just at the click of a button. Granted you already can (ad do!).
5. I don’t trust banks and i certainly don’t trust governments to act in the publics best interests where any thing is concerned let alone manage something as serious as this.

If the cashless society ever becomes a thing, i can only see it eventually coming with some of restriction of freedom whether that’s something along the lines of control hidden behind some ‘Carbon Credit Limit’ nonsense or some such. Restrictions would be far easier to implement in a cashless society.

….i’m naturally a cynical and suspicious person when it comes to things like this anyway, so will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Finally do you all have 100% faith in the IT systems involved in our banks. Hmmm

I’ve worked on these and yes I do. I’m pretty sure I’ve lost more money as cash than I have in electronic transfers. Much more.

That’s a different faith, I think.

I have faith in bank systems not to lose my money, or at worst to reimburse me if they do. I have less faith in their 24/7 availability.

1. The sheer controls the bank(s) will have.

To do what?

2. It can be tied easily into social credit where the government (like they already do in China) can restrict funds or travel if you don’t ‘tow the line’. Incidentally, our new PM is a big fan of this idea.

We don’t live in China.

3. When the cashless system is invariably attacked by a nefarious party and is brought down….then what?

What “system” do you envisage as being likely to be brought down which would still allow cash to work?

4. Losing perspective as to how much you can spend just at the click of a button. Granted you already can (ad do!).

This is fair. Plenty of people use cash as a budgeting tool, for instance. I have a mate who pulls out a block of cash when he gets paid, that’s his spends for beer or whatever, when it’s gone it’s gone until next payday.

There’s little technical reason why this can’t be implemented in an app, though.

5. I don’t trust banks

Based on, what, their long-standing track record of stealing customers’ money? Do you suppose that Bill Gates keeps his money under the mattress in $100 bills?

and i certainly don’t trust governments to act in the publics best interests where any thing is concerned let alone manage something as serious as this.

Well, again, nor do I. But having a £20 note in your back pocket isn’t going to change that.

Woh, there are some proper tin-foil hatters on here!

That’s what Big Bacofoil would want you to think!

Cougar

It makes sense to optimise services around the most common forms of travel though, doesn’t it? Whilst say a massive cycling infrastructure investment might be great for us, it’s a waste of money if there’s three people in the borough who own bikes. And then of course you’d have the reverse side of the coin, everyone in cars (ie, likely the majority) whining about the council building cycle lanes rather than filling in potholes.

It’s not optimisation though it’s a total and pervasive disregard for any other type of transport.

Our hospital is split on 2 sites.. 7 miles (shortest) apart and not a single bus between them.

1 bus from the town centre to one hospital per hour (when it runs) according to google maps the quickest way by public transport is to get the airport coach to Heathrow and walk… (1hr43)

Take another council .. but

Am I misremembering or is this BwDBC you’re talking about? (That’s who I worked for, I was mistaken when I said Hyndburn earlier.)

No sadly I’m down south now…

So take Guildford next door with the Royal Surrey

There are a number of options for you to choose from when travelling to Royal Surrey, but we would recommend using public transport wherever possible as on-site parking is very limited. If you do come by car, please allow extra time to park before your appointment.

same page (maps etc. inbetween)

Safeguard Buses operate a regular service to Royal Surrey from Guildford Town Centre, via the train station, with buses running every seven or eight minutes.

You need to catch route five to the hospital and route four back into Guildford Town Centre.

The buses run at different frequencies at weekends and on public bank holidays. For more information about buses click here.

Also available:

Stagecoach route 1 (via Surrey Sports Park / University of Surrey)
A return to Guildford picks up directly outside the hospital Main Entrance (Bus stop HT1).

Well… so what? What business is that of the residents? What’s important is that they provide the service they’ve agreed to provide, how they provide it isn’t your concern. No? Failing to meet obligations is a problem the council needs to address.

They have negotiated an exclusive service with their mates… hidden from the wider council (including oversight committee) and signed for under delegated authority by the head of legal and snuck in an optional service (green waste) the we the tax payers then have to subscribe to with their choice of mates because their mates have used council property and charge more for competitors to use it than can be supported.
***************
All a bit off topic but since you asked WHO… and to see the level of corruption here.

Not the last (interest rates have obviously gone up)
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/staggering-amount-woking-borough-council-23066714

Woking Borough Council is £1.84billion in the red – the third largest debt out of any council in the UK according to independent consultants.

(pop just over 100k so easily highest per capita debt)

Failing to meet obligations is a problem the council needs to address.

Well, lets start obligations with paying off that debt … most of that money has been transferred to mates of the former Exec, former CEO and still hanging in head of legal. Former head of the council has taken the money and scarpered to his estate in Scotland amid corruption investigations.

I’d argue if the council negotiate a contract on your behalf (opt in green waste) with penalty clauses that pay THEM they need to disclose they are the recipient of this. Not only that but they then failed to enforce this.

Let’s say in anything else you get a contract (lets say a LBS that leases bikes) .. and you have a contract say’s it will be maintained every x weeks and sealant replaced and bearings changed, fork/shock serviced etc.
They subcontract part of this.. and have a contract with TFT says if a fork service takes longer than 2 weeks they get £75 after 6 months or a year you still don’t have your bike, you are still being charged the lease and you just want to get the forks dine and pay yourself but they are making £75 every 2 weeks by NOT providing that bike back to you.
I’d say they have an obligation to tell you that they are the beneficiary of £75 every fortnight they keep your bike.

How much money are we talking about?
Had the council collected the penalties .. 45,000 households with a collection every 2 weeks.
We are leafier than you so lets just say 1/2 those 45,000 have green waste collection .. 45,000*0.5*0.5*£75 = £843,750 per week over a year = £43,875,000 (you can divide that by 10 and its still a considerable amount)

Obviously AMEY wouldn’t have paid that as they had plenty of alternatives… they could buy a fleet of Class C, hire other waste companies etc. etc. but instead they were allowed to just not pay hence did nothing whilst the portfolio holder lied for them and failed to enforce the penalty (or obviously even say they would).

On the off-chance AMEY actually did pay then that’s £43 Million off our council tax not into the pockets of the special vehicle company set up between the councillors and AMEY!
***************

So what would you propose instead?

Honestly, it’s as simple as asking the question and not accepting the answer EVERYONE WILL DRIVE A CAR.
See the Royal Surrey … easy to get to by bus, train etc. could do with safer bike parking but at least I can take a bus.

Council recycling … they need to provide pedestrian entry (that allows pushing a bike or wheelbarrow).

Same thing .. not everyone wants to pay electronically or use a phone etc.
If people WANT to use an electronic service then that’s fine but they shouldn’t be penalised or cut off for not doing.

Cougar

Based on, what, their long-standing track record of stealing customers’ money?

You may have not been affected by the 2008-2009 crisis but surely you remember it?
If that’s not enough than its only a week since banks were proposing stopping people withdrawing money.

Do you suppose that Bill Gates keeps his money under the mattress in $100 bills?

He certainly doesn’t keep it in banks…

You may have not been affected by the 2008-2009 crisis but surely you remember it?
If that’s not enough than its only a week since banks were proposing stopping people withdrawing money.

All the cash you see has probably been in and out of a bank anyway, so it’s not going to make much difference unless you do away with banks entirely. Then be prepared to fight off gangs of thieves at the end of every month when you run the gauntlet trying to get home with several thousand in cash. This is the reason banks were invented in the first place.

@Cougar

Preventing usage of funds depending on political climate or agenda and certain organisations exactly like PayPal did just a few weeks ago.

The cashless payment systems will have to become a variety of nodes sat on a massive public network…..it wouldn’t be long before before some troublesome spotty teen…..or another nefarious party brings that to a standstill. Nothing is impenetrable.

We don’t live in China….not yet we don’t. 😉

Cash is still physical and could still be used easily enough. They managed absolutely fine in the 60’s.

Bill Gates – that would be some mattress! Almost as big as mine…almost! 😉

He certainly doesn’t keep it in banks…

Really???
Go on then….. is it in giant piggy banks?

Preventing usage of funds depending on political climate or agenda and certain organisations exactly like PayPal did just a few weeks ago.

Paypal prevented access to funds?

The cashless payment systems will have to become a variety of nodes sat on a massive public network…..it wouldn’t be long before before some troublesome spotty teen…..or another nefarious party brings that to a standstill. Nothing is impenetrable.

“become” – what do you suppose payment systems are right now?

We don’t live in China….not yet we don’t. 😉

Well, that’s a whole other argument isn’t it. Our civil rights are being torn up hand over fist.

Cash is still physical and could still be used easily enough. They managed absolutely fine in the 60’s.

We don’t live in the 60s. This is the same woolly argument used by brexiters, “we were alright before we joined” (we weren’t at all but that’s not the point here). Times have changed, tills aren’t mechanical devices with shillings on them. We’re simply not equipped to deal with manual processes any more, if I buy a sandwich and a bottle of milk from the bakery round the corner they reach for a calculator to add the two numbers together.

If you buy something in a shop today it almost certainly goes through some form of EPOS – Electronic Point Of Sale – system. That’s true whether you pay by phone, by chip & pin, by contactless debit card, by cheque, by cash, or by two goats and a chicken. If you’re concerned about… christ, I don’t even know, some sort of Russian cyberterrorism attacking the retail networks, then that ship has already sailed my friend.

You may have not been affected by the 2008-2009 crisis but surely you remember it?
If that’s not enough than its only a week since banks were proposing stopping people withdrawing money.

Don’t you see the irony here? You want to use cash because if everyone wanted to use cash then there wouldn’t be enough cash so… what, best get in there first? Have you got barrels of petrol in your garage too?

It’s this sort of hysterical mass muppetry which causes the problems in the first place, not the banks.

He certainly doesn’t keep it in banks…
Really???
Go on then….. is it in giant piggy banks?