Isn’t the whole point of Crypto that it doesn’t have an owner or a gouvernence structure?

No, the whole point of crypto is to make lots of money for the people who invented it.

I really don’t understand the idea that using cash is better for budgeting. Whatever you’re planning to spend it on costs the same regardless. Self control and a spreadsheet takes care of budgeting. Cash is a massive pain in the arse in my opinion. Not used it for years and don’t intend to start again for any reason.

Not specific to you (just quoting as an example) .. but ultimately what gives you the say on how others use and manage their money which is to some extent what’s happening? People who don’t want to use tech are either being forced to or squeezed out.

Personally, I don’t want computers, phones or any other tech etc. in my life except as I choose (or get paid for).

If nothing else I want to be able to ‘unplug’ for a week… not turn on a computer or phone.
Paul Merton manages without a mobile phone or computer…
The idea of my Mum buying a computer and learning to use spreadsheets isn’t working for me either.

As for online/offline… where are you buying things where there is no phone signal and no wifi?
That might be quite an England centric point, sorry if you’re somewhere more remote and less connected.

What if I just don’t have a smartphone or just don’t wish to be carrying it or turn it on (or the battery ran out)?

posts stuff about *they* will control what you can spend etc in the cashless world

bonkers, to what gain?

As per the thread title…. but
*they* will control what you can spend etc in the cashless world
is not
*they* will control what you can spend on and who with etc in the cashless world

It certainly changes spending habits for many… the who people buy from as well as the what but that’s all part of a deeper assumption that everyone wishes to be part of this tech society or they can just sod off and/or die.

As the older generations die out and are replaced by digital savvy kids the decline of cash will speed up.

And here is the issue … a generation of real life unsavvy kids who can’t differentiate between real life and some artificial online world (I totally get cash itself is artificial but this is a step or several steps further)

Paul Merton manages without a mobile phone or computer…

He’s quoted as saying “I don’t have a computer or a mobile phone. I don’t have email. I manage because my wife has those things”. And I’ll bet you his manager and accountant all have them, so he’s not so much bravely rejecting tech as using it at one remove.

fair point but not a fair point, I’ve seen that happen and the tills don’t work either so even cash is useless

Well some people have thought hard and come to the wrong conclusion.

I’ve lived this scenario a few times. You go through the back – you get a second float from the safe and you run a manual tally on a note book using a calculator.

The hardest part is knowing the price of things. – so can forget going to Tesco/Asda who don’t put price labels on anything any more . But in our scenario – it was a bar so we knew the price of most common drinks off the top of our head. Folks had a great evening by candle light and one of the guests playing. An old acoustic guitar we found in the back.

I can see holding folding being popular again this winter at least.

What if I just don’t have a smartphone or just don’t wish to be carrying it or turn it on (or the battery ran out)?

Or you run out of cash and there isn’t a cash-point nearby? Everyone can create difficult scenarios.

Given that the Treasury just spent millions creating plastic/polymer notes, and one of the reasons they did that is that they last longer, (the £20 note is supposed to last 20 years) plus they printed over 500 million fivers and over 1200 million tenners; I don’t think we’re at the dawn of the cashless society yet.

Personally, I don’t want computers, phones or any other tech etc. in my life except as I choose (or get paid for).

I just use my bank card for any in person purchases and PayPal for everything else. I totally understand the stance in your post but the world moves on, always has and always will. Cash is becoming less prevalent and I think learning to cope with that change, like any other, is a good thing.

Paul Merton manages without a mobile phone or computer…

How did he communicate that with everyone? 🤣

And here is the issue … a generation of real life unsavvy kids who can’t differentiate between real life and some artificial online world

Pretty sure they are saying ‘and here is the real issue – a generation of technophobes who are stuck in the past and can’t cope in the modern virtual world’

Just dealing with an old boy who has requested payment by cheque FFS! Refused a simple bank transfer or cash , it’s a decent amount but I could pay it in cash, he’s not a technophobe , been in business for years. No idea where or even if I still have a cheque book…….first world problems. He says it’s because he has a ‘property deal’ going on, how does that make a blind bit of difference?

Yes cashless is terrible, I lost my wallet two weeks ago as was just doing contactless for everything! Finally found it but those weeks were concerning 🤣

Jamesco, just tell him you dont have a cheque book. I very nearly binned ours a few months ago, hadn’t written a cheque since before Covid.

If nothing else I want to be able to ‘unplug’ for a week… not turn on a computer or phone.

Fine but the flip side for many businesses is they don’t want the hassle of cash so their want is not to handle it. I trust you respect their prefer

Jamesco, just tell him you dont have a cheque book. I very nearly binned ours a few months ago, hadn’t written a cheque since before Covid.

If nothing else I want to be able to ‘unplug’ for a week… not turn on a computer or phone.

Fine but the flip side for many businesses is they don’t want the hassle of cash so their want is not to handle it. I trust you respect their preference.

Face it you’re in a dying minority, many older people have happily embraced technology, attitude is the main barrier, you dont need expensive tech, just a cheap smart phone. With modern banking apps it’s just as easy to budget by looking at your current balance as counting your cash in your hand, so that argument is out the window as well.

johnners

He’s quoted as saying “I don’t have a computer or a mobile phone. I don’t have email. I manage because my wife has those things”. And I’ll bet you his manager and accountant all have them, so he’s not so much bravely rejecting tech as using it at one remove.

He’s not “bravely rejecting tech” he just doesn’t want it neither is this some “one off quote”.
I think the one you quoted was about “What screen saver do you have” but he’s variously asked and never makes a big deal and say’s “his wife has one”.

I remember one interview with him and Hislop where he got asked “but how do you meet people” (or something) and Hislop just replied with (sic) “how do think we did before mobile phones”.

Equally, yep sure his accountant has a computer, they are being paid to.

How did he communicate that with everyone?

He answers questions he gets asked face to face…

funkmasterp

I just use my bank card for any in person purchases and PayPal for everything else. I totally understand the stance in your post but the world moves on, always has and always will. Cash is becoming less prevalent and I think learning to cope with that change, like any other, is a good thing.

It’s not (so much) about prevalence it’s about removing the option.
I’m getting on a bit myself but I’m sure even I’m younger than say the average national trust visitor.
Not that long (2yrs) ago I tried parking at Hindhead and my phone was too old to even download the App required to pay. Ultimately though it’s usually a case that I end up paying for something I don’t want.

If I give another example… I pay council tax. I am prohibited from using the tip I pay for because I don’t have a “car”. (I have a van but that then excludes a great deal and I have to register it and pay) There is no option to turn up with a wheel barrow or some bags, moped etc.

Lots of people don’t have a vehicle at all… so they are completely unable to use this service they have no option but to pay for. To extend your statement (into something you didn’t say) perhaps they should just “get with the times”? (This is made more complex that a private company operate it and set prices so that other competing companies can’t use it)

In this case the assumption from our council is everyone has a car…. this of course then extends into bike parking, planning for shops etc. etc. no bus service between walk in clinic and hospital or between sister sites of the hospital (5 miles and 7 miles) and I’m not exactly back of beyond but the council’s expectation/assumption is all residents have a car.

I guess what I’m saying is there are these assumptions that people should just embrace either getting a mobile phone, car, cashless etc. or they are not worth considering as part of society.

Footflaps

Pretty sure they are saying ‘and here is the real issue – a generation of technophobes who are stuck in the past and can’t cope in the modern virtual world’

Well we were here 1st 😉

More seriously in all the extended examples (car, mobiles) its accepted that both the accompanying health issues are something we should just accept. I hope I don’t need to go into why cars cause health issues or how many studies link pressures from mobile usage to mental health issues?

Let’s face it. It’s the same argument that’s plagued paper maps.

Tech is great . Right up till it’s not…. Then your screwed.

Let’s face it. It’s the same argument that’s plagued paper maps.

Tech is great . Right up till it’s not…. Then your screwed.

I predominantly use my phone. There has been a number of occasions lately where the contactless hasn’t recognised the phone -and I’ve no other method of payment. To the point Im back to carrying at least a single card.

Bit like how pre pandemic id carry a card and 20quid on a ride as several cafes round here were cash only.

What do you have to take to the tip by hand? Does your council not offer a kerbside collection?

When I worked at the council a van registration was something exorbitant like £15 quid. Registration is there to stop tradesmen from taking the piss with commercial waste.

What do you have to take to the tip by hand? Does your council not offer a kerbside collection?

Does any of that matter. If your not in a car your excluded.

And fyi yes I can get kerbside collection. It’s charged per item and so again another tax on those without cars

As for the rest of that, it’s a lot of words to say “I don’t want it.” And that’s fine.

Most of the arguments are mince, of course. From weapons-grade tinfoil-hattery about Them, to forgetting your phone whataboutery because no-one in the history of ever as found themselves out and about going “shit, my wallet’s in my other coat!”

You want to use cash, good for you, no-one is forcing you not to. We’re not going to ban cash, certainly not in our lifetimes. What will happen, guaranteed, is that convenience will drive popularity. The reason next to no-one uses cheques anymore isn’t because they’ve been banned by Big Banknote but because they’re a pain in the arse.

Money will go the same way. Rummaging around in a purse or wallet, “oh, I’ve only got a twenty, is that OK?”; eyerolls as the shopkeeper counts out £14.86 in change; they’ve run out of pennies so there’s that awkward moment where neither of you know whether they’re going to under- or over-charge you 1p; here’s your receipt to immediately lose; then walking round like ED-209 all day until you can get home and dump it into an oversized whisky bottle to ‘take to the bank’ when it’s full. Alternatively, blip… “payment accepted.” By the time your grandkids are our age, a £20 note will be something they stick in birthday cards and the Generation Gammas think is quaint.

Does any of that matter. If your not in a car your excluded.

This has all gone a bit Life Of Brian.

And fyi yes I can get kerbside collection. It’s charged per item and so again another tax on those without cars

Don’t be melodramatic. It’s a charge for an additional service. Have you never bought anything and been told “in-store collection available for free, or home delivery is £4.99”?

For what it’s worth, this varies by council. Hyndburn does free bulky collection so long as you don’t take the piss; Burnley have a nominal fee (it’s something like 10-15 quid for up to four items); I expect other local councils are broadly similar.

Alternatively, blip… “payment accepted.”

Well to be as dismissive as you to other view points yes that’s one alternative.

Alternatively, to blip… “payment accepted. There are several other outcomes the world’s not black an white.

Almost all of the other scenarios that arise when you go “blip” are negated by……cash.

Don’t be melodramatic. It’s a charge for an additional service. Have you never bought anything and been told “in-store collection available for free, or home delivery is £4.99”?

Ok. I don’t want your home delivery I’ll come collect it on my bike for free ….. Oh no sorry sir we only allow cars on site – oh but I don’t own a car- But we can charge you more to deliver it.

The world’s not black and white have a little empathy . View it from others view points once in a while.

Bit like how pre pandemic id carry a card and 20quid on a ride as several cafes round here were cash only.

I just have a £20 note in the back of my phone case – used it twice since lockdown first started.

Tech is great . Right up till it’s not…. Then your screwed.

But…That’s no one’s fault but your own. If you go somewhere and you either haven’t charged your GPS, or miscalculated how long it would take, or got lost, those are all imaginable circumstances, if you’ve not planned for it; well, you’ve only yourself to blame.  Having your bank card on your phone, or you just carry cash,  is exactly the same gig,

Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance as the saying goes.

Lots of people don’t have a vehicle at all… so they are completely unable to use this service they have no option but to pay for.

They’re not completely unable to use the service, the actual service of sorting the rubbish after drop off is freely available to them, they just have to find a different way of getting stuff there – could be a zip car, cargo bike, man and van etc. I don’t think councils are unfair charging a modest fee for collecting stuff it costs them money do to so.

Almost all of the other scenarios that arise when you go “blip” are negated by……cash.

Or, almost all of the other scenarios that arise when you go “cash” are negated by……blip.

🤷‍♂️ It’s an alternative. We’ve had Your Flexible Friend™ since the 1980s and no-one’s been crying into their soup about that. Today we have debit cards, credit cards, contactless is displacing chip & pin as rapidly as C&P supplanted magnetic strips and “sign here please, sir” but they’re ostensibly the same process. Contactless phone payment is no different. If your card fails you have cash / if your cash fails you have card, is the point I was getting at. Like I said, if you don’t want to use those options then that’s absolutely fine, it’s not mandatory.

My mum falls into this camp. She’s in her mid-70s, her phone is what today we’d somewhat ironically call a ‘feature phone’. She’s happy typing in her PIN on a transaction which would accept her contactless card and always insists on giving me a tenner if I get her shopping in. (I’ve tried arguing this, she says if I don’t accept it she’ll feel guilty asking me next time, the manipulative cow.) For her, cashless is a non-starter. There are people of her generation who long for the return of shillings FFS.

Ok. I don’t want your home delivery I’ll come collect it on my bike for free ….. Oh no sorry sir we only allow cars on site – oh but I don’t own a car- But we can charge you more to deliver it.

Going to cycle to John Lewis to collect a fridge, are you?

The world’s not black and white have a little empathy . View it from others view points once in a while.

I’m sympathetic to those who don’t want something or can’t, I said this (in black and white) earlier. Choice is good.

What I have less time for is baseless pseudo-justifications for this decision, like whoever it was talking about ‘control’ earlier. Would you, could you like green eggs and ham?

I have had to start carrying an emergency fiver in my toolkit as I have been in three pubs in the last fortnight that are cash only. I always have a few notes in my wallet but often just stick a card in my pocket when going out on the bike.

Going to cycle to John Lewis to collect a fridge, are you?

Must have missed where you mentioned it was a fridge earlier in your hypothetical situation. But you keep shifting goalposts it’s a good look.

Back in the real world I’ve Tried to take stuff to the skip on my bike and been told no bikes on safety grounds.

Kerbside domestic refuse and recycling is free nationally. Bulky item collection is provided (I think) by all local councils although some charge a nominal fee.

So: what are you having to take to the tip which can be readily transported on a bicycle but cannot go into kerbside collection?

been told no bikes on safety grounds.

Do you consider that an unreasonable restriction? I can readily see why a site with heavy plant vehicles wouldn’t want free-range cyclists hooning about. Kids on bikes are enough of a menace at Tesco.

Glass bottles which are not taken in the recycling locally (but are within the region if your googling for information) but your requested to take them to the skip your self from our postcode area.

In the shire we have had to take all our recycling to the skip ourselves up until fairly recently.

Do you consider that an unreasonable restriction? I can readily see why a site with heavy plant vehicles wouldn’t want free-range cyclists hooning about.

Well if they allow cars , people with trailers who can’t reverse them, pedestrians from the cars carrying things far too big for them to carry alone.

Then no…… Because it was a long time ago that the heavy machinery and the public part were separated in any of the skips round our part.

Glass bottles which are not taken in the recycling locally (but are within the region if your googling for information) but your requested to take them to the skip your self from our postcode area.

And if you took that up with your council because you didn’t have transport, what would they say I wonder? Would they expect, to reuse an earlier example, my septuagenarian stroke-survivor imminent-double-kidney-failure mother to by making her own way to the tip with bags of recycling? I wonder what their response would be if you fell off your bike and landed in bagfuls of smashed glass.

No other glass recycle points? We’ve got one in ASDA car park.

In the shire we have had to take all our recycling to the skip ourselves up until fairly recently.

This is how we get fly-tipping. In the situation you describe most people would probably bung the lot into general waste.

Well if they allow cars , people with trailers who can’t reverse them, pedestrians from the cars carrying things far too big for them to carry alone.

Then no…… Because it was a long time ago that the heavy machinery and the public part were separated in any of the skips round our part.

Dunno then. At my local tip the skips are isolated from the rest of the site but that involves crossing what we might call ‘shared use’ areas to get to them. If you got out of your car early you’d get shouted at. A cyclist (or pedestrian) would probably be fine at the skip area itself but they’d have to get there first.

Plus as I said, kids on bikes. A recycling yard might be adventure playground for bored teenagers, a blanket “no bikes” policy would solve that and local councils aren’t famed for nuance.

Did you say you worked at a council yard?

I worked at a local council, dunno whether that’s what you’re referring to as a ‘yard’. Probably is. It wasn’t the recycling centre (tip) itself but we worked closely with refuse collection. All the drivers and binmen were based out of our site. Part of my job was GIS mapping domestic collection routes and the office I was in dealt with the moany arses who rang in every week because their collection was 47 seconds late. Plus we / they dealt with stuff as above like applications for van permits (there were a lot of those). Mostly I was IT but I saw a lot of what goes on second-hand.

I just have a £20 note in the back of my phone case – used it twice since lockdown first started.

Remarkable that it managed to find its way back to you both times. 🙂

They’re not completely unable to use the service, the actual service of sorting the rubbish after drop off is freely available to them, they just have to find a different way of getting stuff there – could be a zip car, cargo bike, man and van etc. I don’t think councils are unfair charging a modest fee for collecting stuff it costs them money do to so.

They are charging for a service you can drop off … it’s in the council tax.
They explicitly forbid ALL of your options perhaps with the zip car being possible. (Assuming you don’t get charged for messing the inside up and of course you have a license and you think it’s reasonable to expect someone to hire a car for the sole purpose of dropping their recycling off)

No Bikes (cargo or otherwise)
No foot traffic (wheelbarrow/bags)
No man and van (classed as commercial so a per item charge on top)

All for the service that’s free if you have a car and you’re already paying for.

Does any of that matter. If your not in a car your excluded.

Cougar

This has all gone a bit Life Of Brian.

The point here is “punishing people for not having a car” either deliberately or just as a by-product of assuming if someone doesn’t have a car they’re irrelevant.
It might be recycling, it might be bike parking, buses between hospitals …..

It’s the same point as “punishing people don’t have a smartphone or computer” and as per thread title we are talking about a cashless society so no choice.

A free service that you’re paying for?

Your council tax pays for council services including refuse collection, disposal and recycling. They allow members of the public to drive into their facilities to drop off additional waste, and there is a surcharge if you require additional services such as trade waste disposal or an extraordinary collection. I would suppose that the only reason they provide a drive-up service at all is to give folk a preferable alternative to fly tipping.

I’ve never had a house fire, should I be complaining about my council tax funding a fire service for those who have?

The point here is “punishing people for not having a car”

… is a nonsense.

It’s the same point as “punishing people don’t have a smartphone or computer”

… is also a nonsense. These things aren’t happening. They can’t, for exactly the reasons you cite.

The point here is “punishing people for not having a car”

… is a nonsense.

Finally something we agree on. Punishing people for not having a car to use services provided is an absolute nonsense and should not be a thing in this day and age.

But as much as you deny it exists you then go on to describe it happening in uour justification.

Finally something we agree on. Punishing people for not having a car to use services provided is an absolute nonsense and should not be a thing in this day and age.

But as much as you deny it exists you then go on to describe it happening in uour justification.

^^^

@Cougar
You should actually give this a go and walk a mile in someone else’s shoes… you’re mum is lucky you’re local.
This is our free rag
https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/your-say-what-should-done-25293508

A free service that you’re paying for?

Your council tax pays for council services including refuse collection, disposal and recycling. They allow members of the public to drive into their facilities to drop off additional waste, and there is a surcharge if you require additional services such as trade waste disposal or an extraordinary collection. I would suppose that the only reason they provide a drive-up service at all is to give folk a preferable alternative to fly tipping.

My council tax pays for a service that is written in a contract (with an AMEY subsidiary). That contract say’s that the drop off service will be provided FREE to residents.
If you are half interested (I’ll assume not) I can send you the entire contract, its on my HDD.

We spent 18mo+ with no garden waste collection every 2 weeks… this is an optional (non council tax) service we paid for and got 4-5 collections over 18mo.

According to the contract the council (not the customer) got paid £25 for every missed collection (pop 100k so work that out) but its tens to hundreds of millions underwritten by AMEC.

The council maintained throughout this everyone could drop off their garden waste for FREE…. which wasn’t true as it required a CAR. Not only that they made it impossible for anyone else to do this…

Our neighbour opposite doesn’t drive…. (or have a license) so we do a fair bit if shopping for her. When she asked of I could take her garden waste I had to say no… not because of the registration of the van but because their rules say no garden waste in vans WITHOUT a commercial contract.