Plunge sawyers, how are you getting on?

I have a set of these Stanley trestles which are brilliant. They fold up and clip together neatly.

I also have a set of the regular folding plastic type.

The Stanleys at the top can take more weight and have a longer support, although you can stick 2x4s into the slots on the plastic type.

I screw bits of 18mm mdf to the tops from underneath with brass screws, giving me a nice flat surface that I can cut into with my track saw nae bother.

Can someone explain to me when you use / need the MFT table ?

Really the thing they are useful for is repeatability - rather than measuring and marking up every cut one piece at a time its away of setting up to make the same cut again and again. So its a time save.

Is a proper rail system that much of a game changer?

I have a little 20v Worx plunge saw and for straight cuts I just clamp down something with a straight edge to the workpiece.

Again - its a time save. A rail system is just faster - it doesnt allow you to make any cut you couldn't make with a ripsnorter and a straight edge its just quicker (and plunge saws with extraction are also cleaner so thats a time save too)

So in either case its really a question of what matters to you in terms of time. Some people are making things as a way of spending time and some are doing it as a way of making money and are therefore looking to save time.

If you're making things for a hobby then doing things in half the time just means less time doing your hobby.

the stanley isn’t square according to some amazon reviews

Interesting - mine is. I've had it for about 10 years though I think so maybe there have been good and bad batches

If you’re making things for a hobby then doing things in half the time just means less time doing your hobby.

I only mess about for fun, but everything takes way longer than I expected, so anything which saves times is worth it (for me). I mainly work outside now, so I loose half an hour setting everything up on tressles outside the workshop and getting all the tools outside etc, before I've even started. Then the same to clean all away. I was getting sick of everything being covered in dust in the workshop, even using a vacuum attached to everything.

Only half an hour? Fooook, I waste half the day setting up and spend the rest clearing away!

Storing all this stuff, mft and trestles etc, becomes a job and a half. I've a large tandem style double garage and thanks to a huge storage and tidying project I've reclaimed the half the car isn't in, I hope to keep it though and not have to negotiate a pile of junk to get to every toy, tool or material.

The plastic type trestles were my first thought, might stretch to the top ones though if they fold away more neatly.

As for circular saw against staight edge there what I did for the last 20+ years and managed. Although since the motor on my saw overhangs the base plate I could only use the blade side edge against a rail so trimming a thin piece from a sheet could only be done using the saws own fence. I thought about making my own rail system for it, then looked at buying rails and base plate add ones (skil do one, and someone else) but they cost as much as the Macalister or workzone saws and still not as good so I've just gone the whole hog. Or what I thought was.... But seems I need an fst, dogs, clamps, clamps for the dogs, squares, clamp on squares, dogs for the squares, a smooth sheath for my ribbed hose and, and.... Well I've more then I need I guess!

a smooth sheath for my ribbed hose

Knyuck knyuck! Chelp!

I use those plastic Stanley trestles, I think they're great. The slots fit CLS timber. Cheap from B&Q. That means I've got a 2.4m long bench, I stick my MFT on top and with a couple of offcuts of 18mm board to support the longer pieces I can do anything.

And as for the hose getting snagged, Festool make a handy deflector for hose and cable that you place at the end of the rail. But I made one from an old paint roller tray that worked too.

And a final thought (for now) Don't get upset that you bought "an inferior" version of any tool. Tools fall into 4 categories: 1) you can't do the job without it 2) you can do the job quicker with it 3) you can do the job to a higher quality with it. 4) I really really really want it because it's expensive and all the big boys on YouTube use it.
I've got a few Festool which I mostly bought for 3) but with a bit of 4) but if I don't know I'll be using it a lot I'm fine with Erbauer or cheaper. My impact driver, which I bought years ago is an Erbauer. It's in daily use and I wish it would break because then I could justify getting a premium brand. Same with my JCB router!

But seems I need an fst, dogs, clamps, clamps for the dogs, squares, clamp on squares, dogs for the squares, a smooth sheath for my ribbed hose and, and…. Well I’ve more then I need I guess!

……

I’ve a large tandem style double garage and thanks to a huge storage and tidying project I’ve reclaimed the half the car isn’t in, I hope to keep it though and not have to negotiate a pile of junk to get to every toy, tool or material.

🙂

I’ve got some of the cheap plastic trestles and they’ve had some really heavy solid timber worktops on them with no problems.

The Bora Centipede things look ace though if you can spend more, no worries about supporting in the right direction/places. https://www.keybladesandfixings.com/collections/bora

If you’re making things for a hobby then doing things in half the time just means less time doing your hobby.

Or getting twice as much done in the limited time you have. Cutting MDF isn’t the hobby in itself, making nice fitted stuff for my house is.

Being able to quickly, repeatably cut things to the right size and square is like having a superpower after years of faff with not-quite-right bits I’d cut using a circular saw.

For me the great beauty of the rail saw is that I can work off a pile of sheets on the floor. No need to worry about supporting offcuts or the saw falling on the floor (can happen if you've set up a bevel cut); just shove a scrap of 6mm board under the cut to protect the material underneath. I have two 1400 rails and an 800 one which is handy working in tight spaces. I don't use squares or jigs as the workshop table saw gets used when I'm back off site.
Rail saws are actually great for scribe cuts as a series of short straight cuts works fine around most curves, much faster and neater than using a jigsaw, handsaw or power planer.

Yeah big John and maccruiskeen sum it up. I don't need this, but it's a bit of treat myself. Other than my large chainsaw this is my most expensive power tool. I've tools to do many jobs but got a real mix ...bosch blue cordless drill (x2) and impact driver, DeWalt corded big sds+ drill, this plunge saw and both the Stihl and husky chainsaws I consider quality tools for me as a DIY guy and festool mafell Milwaukee I'd love but not enough given the use id get. Then I've tools like the 25 year old black and decker circular saw and a b and d Jigsaw, just about old enough to be from before b&d went to pieces and an almost as old biggish old corded hammer drill from the Wickes pro range... Good value tools that have paid for themselves many times over and do okay but not special type tools... Then power devil angle grinder, parkside multi tool, performance power router and similar brand chop saw are cheap but have done far more then I could have imagined. The router and the multi tool I'd upgrade to Bosch/Makita quality in an instant if they ever break though. Hand tools agree a similar spread, a teenie bit of snap on, king dick, stahwille, (old but quality) a similar amount of Halfords pro and Stanley from 50+ years ago before they went to pieces, and a load of pretty cheap sh**, but generally it's been for enough to do the jobs I've asked of it.
I can't think of any cheap tools I regret buying, a few I'd buy better now I've more money and know the tools use, but that's it. Similarly I don't regret the better tools I have, they've been well used and have made jobs a pleasure

It's arrived! I need to fit a plug. It was cheap as it's obviously European stock, with a 2 pin plug.
Thankfully I have a plug, and the tools needed to fit.

Hmmm, do I have a problem? Both the rails (Excel 1500mm) are slightly bowed, one more than the other. If laid on a flat surface the worst one is maybe 5mm up off of it at either end. Saw seems to run along each (haven't tried joining) and the rails flatten as the saw passes so probably okay? Or should I return them?

Or should I return them?

Yes, return. You need your rail reliably straight.

Also if it is curved that way you risk it moving while cutting. If it was second hand I'd have a go at gently straightening it but as its new you might as well get it replaced

Yeah I can see it won't sit reliably without clamping. As you say, if I'd bent it, I could likely straighten it, but I didn't. Packaging was fine which had me worried.... Anybody else got excel rails? I'm fearful they are all a bit bowed and the free quid extra on Makita will be a better bet.

report raised with seller on manomano, hope they get back to me tomrrow, that they collect the bowed rails, and i get some straight ones quickly.

btw, i can see the handiness in a short rail. anybody interested in literally going halves on a long one?

The holes on the old black and decker workmate were only ever there to use little plastic stops to hold wood or other materials steady for working on. MFT's are , or rather the holes in them are there for accuracy and squareness when machining or clamping. Design is simple but very accurate.

The Bora Centipede things look ace though if you can spend more, no worries about supporting in the right direction/places.

I have a Bora centipede - with their "foldable" MFT style top. Very happy with it - I haven't used the dog holes yet (dogs on order), but it terms of its ratio of packed-down size vs surface area, it's great.

Tools4trade (the actual sellers on Manomano) have issued a return label after I sent a photo so it'll be a few days but looks like they are processing things fine.

I was cheekily hoping they wouldn't ask for the bent rails back and I'd try and straighten them. Probably unsurprisingly they do want them back though.

The Makita has a scoring button so you do one pass with that on at a shallow depth, then go back full depth. The anti-fall onto the floor at 45 degrees button is brilliant too.

These features are present on the option i never see mentioned which is the erbauer one.

Evolution do the cheapest 2x1400 track kit for longer cuts but you lose the anti tip groove (but the saws run absolutely fine on it.

Peter Millard also points out the evolution track has both slideway strips blade side of the rib, and some saws can tip over a bit as a result. He says it's a problem he has never had, but a subscriber has.

Whilst I’m laid up having bust my hip and lower back at the start of this week, can someone recommend a setup for a halfway decent MFT setup. I could do with a little bit of tool related retail therapy.

I don’t have saw horses, if they’re needed.

Won’t be able to use it for a good few weeks, but that’s not really the point.

can someone recommend a setup for a halfway decent MFT setup.

How long is a piece of string?

From off the shelf original Festool: https://www.axminstertools.com/festool-mft-3-multifunctional-table-with-accessories-702780

To Axminster home brew: https://www.axminstertools.com/ujk-technology-multifunction-workbench-for-parf-dogs-717978

to buying a piece of MFT clone board on Amazon for £50 and making a bench out of it....

Again, loads of places make the dogs, Axminster sell then or https://benchdogs.co.uk/

As above there are many options. notes from me - as diy not pro:
I have the UJK (Axminster) version - just the frame and put an rscncdesign top on it which made it good value , but its extremely heavy , rigid and the supports for the top that run inside do get in the way - so its a fixed or movable type bench not portable.
I also have a knock together rscnc rough ply - that is portable and not bad but needs care as its very tight when put together.
There are many more options these days , i think I would go for the type that has a folding base and slots together - again in wood , paint it your own colour.
These are all budget+ that get you going with something a bit better than just a top and 4 dogs for which there are a multitude of DIY designs - a nice one by a Canadian guy that I cannot find a link to that has folding legs a wheels to transport. edit - found link https://www.danpattison.com/mpt
If you have the money and value the resale option then a genuine Festool mft3
is OK but not very rigid in my opinion, a bit over the top.. for DIY.
The diy systems for making your own tops are really for custom setups or folks with a lot of spare time considering the price of cnc tops and how long they last.
Dogs and jigs are plentiful at all budgets.

Thanks guys

@BigJohn nice setup. May blatantly copy that.

I’ve bought the saw horses from screwfix https://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-folding-saw-horses-69cm-2-pack/82233

Where did you get the MFT top from, it looks like the larger slots at the outside can take normal clamps, which would be very handy.

The top came from Benchdogs a few years ago but they don't do them any more. Yes it's a biggun but I do wardrobes so need to be able to work with 2800 X 610 boards. That's why I use the long supports, I can slide the mft and workpiece up and down to cut the board down without keeping turning it round.
The big slots are more of a nuisance than a help, as I have clamps which fit through the holes as well as in the rail slots. The Axminster ones are much better than the expensive festool ones. But the slots are handy for lifting it on and off.

MacAlisster MSPS 1200 selling for £80 at Screwfix is it worth a punt?
Nothing can match a Stihl masonry saw so sometimes the more expensive is the best, a Makita masonry saw works good for 6 months then gives you problems whereas Stihl 3 years other than rope repairs , filters never been looked at as no loss of revs

Those tables look awesome. We used a couple of pallets and a sheet of OSB to build a whole camper.

My knees didn’t thank me.

[img] [/img]

Screwfix is it worth a punt

It's the old how often will you use it and how much does it cost you if it goes wrong question..

My knees didn’t thank me.

kneepads are invaluable, and quite cheap.

Worktop cutouts, down cutter in a jigsaw = utter shite. Plunge saw a revelation even if you have to cut the wrong side of the line, set the plunge 2nd cut to the exact worktop thickness, finish corners to the radiused holes you've already done with a multitool, jigsaw or handsaw.Square, straight cuts...perfect.

Perfect? That isn't the issue for s pro, it's hidden. It's plenty good enough and much faster, that's the advantage surely. Although as DIY er, I'd get a kick from knowing my never seen cut out was perfect too.

I've found myself going off the plastic trestles. a cheap b&d workmate is £30, I have a 25+ year old one, sacrificial board between the two seems a good it option. I'm too old for working on the floor.... My back complains as well as my knees these days.

Bowed rails back with seller and replacements in the post it seems. In the meantime I'm watching more Peter Millard, which is bad for my bank balance I think.

The peanut fixings look fabulous, and I can see many uses! Bit spendy though. :/

Peter has a vid on a mini peanut jig- £160

Nice guy, lovely well set out workshop for such a small space. He's a member of another forum im on.

Yes that's been watched, and the one on the bigger jig. I'm considering upgrading my router a bit and the mini peanut jig starter kit.

PM's YouTube content is very watchable. Good length, nicely presented, really clear and informative.

In the meantime I’m watching more Peter Millard, which is bad for my bank balance I think.

Don't, whatever you do, get into 'fine woodworking', You think it's bad now? It could well be a whole new world of pain. What did you spend on your plunge saw? I could buy a chisel for that...

That's one chisel. Not a set. One.

Ahh the great thing about furniture design and construction is @Bridges, is you get to have a foot in both worlds.
I've got the 'rough' joinery kit, and a bunch of Lie Nielsen planes and chisels too.

No I know. I favour Veritas stuff, because I find their designs just a little more 'thoughtful' than other premium brands, yet just the same excellent quality. Got a whole bunch of powertools; Festool, Bosch (Green and Blue), DeWalt, etc. Some proper dirt cheap LiDL/ALDI stuff too. It is true that 'you get what you pay for', largely; if you want consistency of results, then you learn that that generally comes more easily the more you spend. But one of my favourite tools is a little Japanese 'Dozuki' saw, which is so versatile and useful, and I think only about £25. It gets used a lot more often than the £1200+ router and table set up. But then; when you need that quality result, having the good stuff is such a bonus. My Festool TS55 gives perfect results, every single time. That bit better in the bearings, that bit better fit all round. Just makes for a better tool.

Bye heck, that must be some sort of Japanese samurai chisel!
I do sort of feel power tools and modern fixings instead of hand tools and well made dovetails/tenons/whatever is cheating. I can only ever hope to cheat though 😀 I consider my Stanley number 5 a quality hand tool,... It's limited by me, rather then me by it.

Depends on what you're trying to achieve; putting together some kitchen cabinets, then powertools, pocket hole jigs, dominos etc all the way. If you're making 'bespoke hand-made furniture', then powertools only for things like thicknessing, band-sawing, ripping timber, drilling etc, cos doing those things by hand sucks any joy out of it, and hand tools for the joinery and fiddly bits. I'll often sand by hand, because power sanders can be a bit too coarse/violent, and a more delicate touch is required. I'm much more of a 'means to an end' type of maker, so powertools where appropriate, get the job finished rather than take seven years to make a small table. Do love doing a dovetail by hand though. So satisfying. But very often, just grabbing a hand tool like a plane, chisel, saw etc, is much quicker than setting up powertools.

I bought an Aldi (rebadged Scheppach) about 3 years ago and found I was using it more and more. Recently I had some overtime at work and used the dosh to buy a Mafell MT55 which was very spendy and a bit of an extravagance that I didn't really need. It cuts so nice though, I keep looking for jobs to do so I can use it!

This is getting annoying. Replacement rails arrived, also bowed. One is very very nearly straight but no, it still lifts at the end and the other needs to go back anyway so both will. One more try. If the next one's aren't straight I'll get my money back and buy Makita I think.

That Mimi peanut jig.... And a 1/2" hikoki router are tempting me.

I bought an Aldi (rebadged Scheppach) about 3 years ago and found I was using it more and more. Recently I had some overtime at work and used the dosh to buy a Mafell MT55 which was very spendy and a bit of an extravagance that I didn’t really need. It cuts so nice though, I keep looking for jobs to do so I can use it!

From one extreme to the other!

Spent this morning knocking up a mobile MFT table - hadn’t occurred to me until I saw the pictures of other people’s set up , but it’s the perfect way to create the work area I need for a couple of DIY projects. I need to trim some ply offcuts to make strips to level up the work surface at each end, but other than that, it’s good to go.

From one extreme to the other!

🤣

@footflaps yeah it was a bit! There was nothing wrong with the Aldi saw and I've done loads of work with it, including making my kitchen cupboard doors. I couldn't find any longer rails to fit it as I only had the two 700mm that came with it and they were getting on my tits as the join was a bit naff. Once you got them aligned properly though the saw was great, especially with a 48t Freud blade in it. The build quality of the Mafell is something else though, its like driving a top end car after you've been driving a bangernomic special.

...as for the MFT I bought a plywood jig (can't remember who off?) and cut loads of holes in my garage workbench.

Very nice, ditch jockey. I would pop a couple of dowels in each end of the MFT to stop it falling into the void as you slide it left and right. And the level's a bit superfluous. Just adjust the legs till it stops wobbling. I also use the strips at each end to act as supports, but I also pop a couple of screws through into the CLS because it's annoying when you slide things left and right and they fall off. Just take the screws out when you pack away. I use short lengths like yours for most work but have a couple of 2400 lengths of CLS when making wardrobes from the 2800 lengths that I buy.
Make sure you've got a support on the waste side so the offcut doesn't fall at the end of the cut.

Is the festool mft1080 worth a punt ?

May have the option of a Second hand one.

This is getting annoying. Replacement rails arrived, also bowed. One is very very nearly straight but no, it still lifts at the end and the other needs to go back anyway so both will. One more try. If the next one’s aren’t straight I’ll get my money back and buy Makita I think.

Buy cheap, buy twice...

It's for this reason, I invest in good tools. A good quality tool is something you'll want to use again and again. A poor quality one, something you don't want to use so ends up being quite redundant. And therefore, poor value for money. I'd rather buy a quality tool and sell it after I've done with it, if I'm only going to use it once/a limited number of times, than something cheap and nasty, with no residual value.

The build quality of the Mafell is something else though, its like driving a top end car after you’ve been driving a bangernomic special.

This. Using quality tools, in this case power tools, makes so much difference. The higher build quality/manufacturing tolerances mean there will be less vibration, for example, leading to easier and more comfortable use. Higher quality steel in blades means they last longer, and cut cleaner. I had to use a lower end DeWalt chop saw recently, and it was awful; I'm so used to the good stuff, that it just felt horrid. Poor quality results, mainly from excessive lay in the bearings, so not the level of accuracy I normally require. Did the job, but not very well. And it hasn't been sued all that much; it's just a 'consumer' level tool for occasional DIYers, so adequate for just that.