@crankrider Yes I have a problem with all big cars (and cars in general to be fair).

The issue here is that company car tax should be designed to incentivise using a smaller / more efficient car. However there’s a loophole that sees luxury pick ups taxed at a lower rate designed to apply to utilitarian vans and trucks.

So you pay less tax on a £55000 ford ranger than a £20000 VW polo. That needs to be fixed.

@crankrider There’s a certain amount of (granted, US) evidence that pickups being used as car substitutes has led to a design trend of higher, more aggressive fronts, which are less safe from both a visibility and collision POV.

Difference with vans is that they generally aren’t, as they’re mostly bought as work vehicles, pumped out kombis aside.

If people aren’t buying pickups as essentially fashion items…

@ratherbeintobago – Surely the front of the average van is as high and ‘aggressive’ as a pickup is it not? – https://www.nationwide-cars.co.uk/media/range/New-Transit-Custom-2023.jpg

And while I agree most vans are bought for work purposes there are many more on the road than pickups and there is an absolutely huge number of vans being used for daily travel and ‘extreme dad’ activities, I would imagine far more vans on the road are being used for this purpose but they don’t get the heat as they are a big part of the mtb / outdoor scene.

Go to any trail carpark and its absolutely full of vans, not pickups – Stop one then surely stop the other, nobody should be able to have a BIK reduced van either?

@sl2000 – Yes, I am well aware of the reduction in BIK that you class as a ‘loophole’ – I just don’t agree that its a matter that needs fixing in any way, as I say they will all be electric in a few years time and they are actually on average narrower than a modern SUV which as I mentioned before is on the drive of every middle class young family.

It’s also interesting how people know that all these vans/pickups at trail centres are on the company. Most people I know with flashy crew cabs are privately owned.

Which is irrelevant to this thread, they’ve paid their income tax and until the country has a sensible discussion over what “car” ownership has morphed into then it’s a democracy and there’s nothing (other than weight limits on some more interesting to get to places) to stop them.

hose that feel this is a problem that needs to be solved seem to have this opinion purely because they can’t / don’t want to access the ‘benefit’ themselves – I can’t / don’t so why should they.

So why should anyone pay any tax?

Should we just tear up the P11d and give everyone a company credit card, as long as you’ve not been paid any money it’s not taxable right?

@thisisnotaspoon – They are paying tax, its just a fixed rate because its a commercial vehicle. This isn’t the same as using a company credit card to buy yourself something, the company pays for the vehicle, the driver doesn’t own it they just get use of it.

It would be interesting to know how many on here and in the ‘EV’ thread are using them as company cars and paying almost zero BIK – do you feel the same way about electric vehicles, how about Transporters or similar? Surely you must?

Which is irrelevant to this thread

And yet:-

I’ve yet to see an SSE Hilux parked up at Swinley with a Dakine tailgate protector. But you do see a lot of Ford Rangers which have clearly never seen a days work in their pampered life

do you feel the same way about electric vehicles

The point of EV BIK rules was to encourage people to switch. There’s a massive CO2/mile difference between eg. a Tesla 3 (picking a zero rated EV at random) and a Ranger Wildtrak, so no, I don’t.

Do I feel there’s any need for people to be driving round a town in a colossal i7? Also no, but that’s a different question to the one here about closing a tax loophole which encourages less safe and more polluting commercial vehicles to be used as cars.

Surely the front of the average van is as high and ‘aggressive’ as a pickup is it not?

Without getting the tape measure out, there’s a much steeper slope on the shorter bonnet of that Transit, so for sight-lines at least it’s better than a tall, long and flat bonnet.

@ratherbeintobago – Ah so a ‘tax loophole’ is acceptable if it fits your personal criteria then, got it.

The road tax is absolutely huge on a vehicle like the Ranger btw, and it remains to be seen what the overall vehicle C02/mile will actually be with all things considered, less than a Tesla 3, probably – less than a 2.5T electric Mercedes SUV, you tell me?

How will you feel about electric pickup’s then and what about the Transporters?

And no, I am not a climate denying idiot – I have just received my first EV, solar install this year at home, I just smell hypocrisy here.

Ah come on, many vans have entirely flat fronts, our works Trafic is like a slab.

I don’t have an EV, or a company car. So far as I know, the EV BIK rules are temporary to encourage uptake of less polluting vehicles. Not sure why that’s a problem? The specific issue here is BIK rules on DC pickups encouraging the opposite.

I don’t think the CO2 per mile of any EV is going to be more than a DC 4×4 pickup but happy to be corrected if anyone has numbers?

@ratherbeintobago – The BIK for EV’s will only be 3% still in 2025-2026 and was zero up until a year or so ago, so your company car owner / director could happily employ the ‘loophole’ to obtain a luxury 2T EV SUV and drive it paying zero BIK (so less than the fixed commercial BIK paid on a pickup truck)

Do you really think a 2T luxury SUV that utterly guzzles electricity and used a phenomenal amount of resources in its production will really gave a considerably less CO2/mile than a ‘normal’ petrol car? I doubt it.

I am sure the BIK for EV’s will rise, but as its only company car owners that are using them in reality it’s not coming soon.

So again ill ask – how will you feel when pickups become electric? and how do you feel about the commercial vans all of us bikers drive around in daily, or are you one of the van drivers?

the commercial vans all of us bikers drive around in daily

I thought we all had Octavia estates?

I’ll be happier when pickups are electric, certainly.

do you feel the same way about electric vehicles, how about Transporters or similar? Surely you must?

I know you think you’re trying to be clever with that straw man.

But yes.

**** em.

The worlds going to hell in a handcart, politicians are fiddling while it burns and people are pouring petrol on the flames whilst saying “but what can I do”? Cities have become a nightmare due to traffic. And country roads are off limits when even people on this cycling forum say they won’t ride a road bike anymore.

So yes, they’re the problem, those people who have a Raptor or a T6 with a Dubbfest sticker on the tailgate as a replacement for a personality.

And if one small step towards correcting that is to stop subsidizing commercial vehicles, then I’m all for it.

@thisisnotaspoon – Very emotive, unfortunately though probably true – And yes, we are all the baddies, and the bike scene is full of hypocritical bullshit, this discussion a huge example of people splitting hairs.

And I also agree – either remove the BIK ‘loophole’ for all commercial, vans included or none, but lets also remove the loophole for luxury EV’s while we are at it too?

@ratherbeintobago – you do drive a van, dont you?

Nope

Maybe the tax on posh commercials would need to be claimed back with proof of actual use. Would create a few extra jobs.

Whilst we’re on tax loopholes, that others take advantage of. How about folks pay back the tax they’ve saved buying bikes to not cycle to work ever, on the cycle to work schemes.

I’ve said it before most workers who drive Commercials have little choice on the vehicle, many have to take them home.

With limited parking being common as less well off workers won’t have massive driveways or a drive at all they may have to get rid of their own vehicle.

It’s also fairly common that you can’t pop to France in the work van for example, despite  paying tax for SDP.

Clearly some do take the piss, there will always be outliers.

I’d love  an almost free Tesla.

How about folks pay back the tax they’ve saved buying bikes to not cycle to work ever, on the cycle to work schemes.

Ooh, I reckon you’ll have snagged a few hypocrites with that one

But, but, but – it’s only about the environment, not the tax money, blah, blah

Whilst we’re on tax loopholes, that others take advantage of. How about folks pay back the tax they’ve saved buying bikes to not cycle to work ever, on the cycle to work schemes.

I don’t have one of those either*.

Blimey, this building straw men and whataboutery is harder than it looks isn’t it?

Still, a £300 tax saving on a Carrera Subway is the real issue isn’t it?

A new Oxford University collaboration has shed light on the damaging health consequences of Britain’s car addiction – revealing that it is likely costing our NHS and society in general more than £6 billion per year.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-06-pollution-cars-and-vans-costs-%C2%A36billion-year-health-damages

*partially because we’re on the Halfords scheme and it’s shit, mostly because I already have decent commuter bikes. We do have a stupidly generous scheme where you can get cars on salary sacrifice though, but I don’t use that on principal.

it remains to be seen what the overall vehicle C02/mile will actually be with all things considered, less than a Tesla 3, probably

[citation needed]

Stop making stuff up.

I don’t have one of those either*.

Blimey, this building straw men and whataboutery is harder than it looks isn’t it?

Still, a £300 tax saving on a Carrera Subway is the real issue isn’t it?

No, it’s a few taking advantage of a tax loophole. Mostly self employed trades as far as I’ve noticed. (As far as pickup BIK goes)

Most companies won’t entertain massive thirsty vehicles unless they are needed for the job.

Cycle to work I couldn’t care less about

Frankly if a work van became anymore of burden I’d find an office job within cycle/bus/pogostick commute distance. It’s really not the Perk office folks think it is.
It’s an arse ache, just had to do a huge diversion around the Rotherhithe Tunnel as vans aren’t allowed.

@yoshimi

I work for a civils firm mainly doing the infrastructure works for housing developers.

We have quite a few of the pick-ups here at work – vehicle of choice for our contract managers and site engineers. Probably 90% of the time spend on normal roads but for the other 10%, if you’ve ever driven about on sites in the north of England during winter you’d understand what a great tool they are.

I’m  not clear that they are either carrying the goods or passengers that necessities a pick up. “Contract manager”?

insusting in company branding for anything commercial would probably solve a chunk of the issue.  I can’t find the post but someone said about a gardener wanting separation from their petrol tools.  Again, why the crew cab and wouldn’t a van with a bulkhead have more usable, secure, dry load space and much easier (lower) loading?

Again, why the crew cab and wouldn’t a van with a bulkhead have more usable, secure, dry load space and much easier (lower) loading?

As someone who has been a gardener with the set up you describe.

why you think that’s the solution to the problem of petrol tools inside a vehicle.

A bulkhead is not airtight.

Traveling in a vehicle even with a bulkhead with petrol tools is nausea inducing.

So I support that.

People using their company vehicles for personal business without being taxed. Less so.

@trailrat thanks – polite, rational and a real reason. Though a 2nd pickup without the ground clearance – something that no longer seems to exist – would probably still be better than some ridiculous jacked up thing.

I still don’t get the hate for company commercials that are ‘posh’? Also the assumption that tax is being avoided?

I get the hate for unnecessary pickups and agree.

The T6 thing I find odd.

Are trades not allowed nice vans, must it be covered in dents and poverty spec or you pay more tax?
Maybe if you work in a nice office, you should pay more tax, especially if it’s air conditioned or, you have access to showers, toilets and a microwave.

Do you really think a 2T luxury SUV that utterly guzzles electricity and used a phenomenal amount of resources in its production will really gave a considerably less CO2/mile than a ‘normal’ petrol car? I doubt it.

Why not look it up? It’s been discussed a lot. Many studies have been done.

“People using their company vehicles for personal business without being taxed. Less so.”

WE

DO

PAY

TAX!

Just not as much for a work van as a posh company motor.

Why does it bother you so much though that someone other than you must pay even MORE tax because they get a perk? I thought this was just a green issue? 🤷

Just not as much for a work van as a posh company motor.

As you are the op I thought you would understand this is about pick up trucks reclassification but hey ho.

either way. If your using the company vehicle(pick up , van , car,  ,pogo stuck) for Personal use. Should be full bik for the vehicle emissions in the same way it is for those of us with non posh company motors as it has become a perk at that point.

But you’ll be ok- your accountant will sort that out so you do no milage for personal im sure.

“As you are the op I thought you would understand this is about pick up trucks reclassification but hey ho.”

Erm, no, I’m not

I understand what it’s about and even though it’s now a moot point, as it’s not happening, I still have an opinion on the tax classification

“But you’ll be ok- your accountant will sort that out so you do no milage for personal im sure.”

If I have a work vehicle for personal use, it gets declared, along with fuel benefits. If at any time I have a separate car for personal use, I don’t write down my truck as a benefit. Would you like to see my tax returns?

But you’ll be ok- your accountant will sort that out so you do no milage for personal im sure

I’ll have to remember next time I’m out in a company van people assume I’m a tax dodger.

I must speak to my accountant, right after a chat with my butler.

It’s easy to tell private use, most companies fit trackers, they can then charge for fuel too.

In the old days we’d just write it all down.
Used to work out mpg without ladders fitted and unloaded, which I suppose was ‘tax dodging’.

As for self employed, best of luck to them after the help they didn’t get during lockdown.